Is immigration really the problem?

[MKULTRABOY]

growing up poor white trash, I would have to disagree. I have too many friends who were pushed out of the construction industry, as employees and employer, to accept that they have no impact on jobs Americans would work. Also, they're heavy employment in the meat packing industry, which at one point was a middle class job, also contradicts this.

But the problem won't be solved until employers face actual financial repercussions

I wouldnt say they have no impact, but I feel 'they took are jarbs' is generally pretty exaggerated without some actual evidence other than anecdotal. Also theyd have to be working for less and about as well for them to be pushed out of their jobs. And as for the meat packing industry, the economy cannot structurally provide for that to be a middle class job anymore, I'm sure there are lots of examples of that.

 

[Kal'Stang]

I wouldnt say they have no impact, but I feel 'they took are jarbs' is generally pretty exaggerated without some actual evidence other than anecdotal. Also theyd have to be working for less and about as well for them to be pushed out of their jobs. And as for the meat packing industry, the economy cannot structurally provide for that to be a middle class job anymore, I'm sure there are lots of examples of that.

Bold part: The very fact that they are here in the US working at buisnesses is plenty of evidence that they do. Its all about supply and demand when it comes to the market yes? If there is a market for hamburger do you think that meat packing plants would hire legal citizens or legal immigrants if there were no illegals in the country?

I know that they say that they hire illegals so as to "keep the price down" but I call bull on that one as companies that hire illegals charge the same amount as companies that don't hire illegals. The only difference when it comes to price is quality.

Underlined part: The only reason that this is true (if it indeed is) is due to the fact that we import most of our meat from other countries, like China, instead of producing it ourselves.

 

[MKULTRABOY]

Bold part: The very fact that they are here in the US working at buisnesses is plenty of evidence that they do. Its all about supply and demand when it comes to the market yes? If there is a market for hamburger do you think that meat packing plants would hire legal citizens or legal immigrants if there were no illegals in the country?

Not sound... if there were no market for illegal labor they wouldn't be here.

I know that they say that they hire illegals so as to "keep the price down" but I call bull on that one as companies that hire illegals charge the same amount as companies that don't hire illegals. The only difference when it comes to price is quality.

Then they're expanding their margin... :shrug:

Underlined part: The only reason that this is true (if it indeed is) is due to the fact that we import most of our meat from other countries, like China, instead of producing it ourselves.

The economy is increasingly globalised you cant just hash out protectionism...

 

[Kal'Stang]

Not sound... if there were no market for illegal labor they wouldn't be here.

The only reason that they are here is because they broke the law. And so do those buisnesses that hire them. Just because there is a supposed "market" for something doesn't mean that dealing in that market is right. There was once a market for slaves also. Would you apply the same reasoning to that as you are to this?

Then they're expanding their margin... :shrug:

At the expense of legal immigrants and citizens.

The economy is increasingly globalised you cant just hash out protectionism...

Actually you can. Citizens and legal immigrants first. Illegals get out.

 

[Cephus]

Not sound... if there were no market for illegal labor they wouldn't be here.

It doesn't matter if there's a market for it. There's a market for hitmen too, doesn't mean we just let people hire them.

Then they're expanding their margin... :shrug:

They're doing it illegally. They can expand their margin even more by stealing their product. Should we accept that?

The economy is increasingly globalised you cant just hash out protectionism...

Globalization is fine, so long as it's done legally. There isn't an advanced country around that doesn't have restrictions on immigration. Unrestricted immigration is economic suicide, everyone seems to know it but you.

 

[graduate14]

Just because there is a supposed "market" for something doesn't mean that dealing in that market is right. There was once a market for slaves also. Would you apply the same reasoning to that as you are to this?

Exactly, maybe we should legalize undocumented immigrants so they can legally work? Undocumented immigrants work with no terms or conditions. Sounds like modern day slavery to me.

 

[ManofthPeephole]

I wouldnt say they have no impact, but I feel 'they took are jarbs' is generally pretty exaggerated without some actual evidence other than anecdotal.

I wouldn't disagree that the effects are often exaggerated, but I also have no issue with actively trying to limit illigal immagration, due to the effects it has on people here, and the attempting to enter this country.

Also theyd have to be working for less and about as well for them to be pushed out of their jobs.

of course they can work for less, because there are no worker protections for them, and they are supporting a family in a country with an extremely low cost of living, largely due to having no social safety net.

And as for the meat packing industry, the economy cannot structurally provide for that to be a middle class job anymore, I'm sure there are lots of examples of that.

While i agree that our dependence on cheap baconators precludes the possibility of going back to the heyday of meat packers making a livable wage, the questions comes down to if the economics would have developed in such a manner, without cheap, and completely exploitable, labor

 

[ManofthPeephole]

Exactly, maybe we should legalize undocumented immigrants so they can legally work? Undocumented immigrants work with no terms or conditions. Sounds like modern day slavery to me.

why would you want to make it harder for Americans to find jobs, when they are already a scarce commodity?

 

[MKULTRABOY]

why would you want to make it harder for Americans to find jobs, when they are already a scarce commodity?

What do you mean harder? They're already here, producing at wages Americans dont want.


Wtf is going on here?

 

[ManofthPeephole]

What do you mean harder? They're already here, producing at wages Americans dont want.


Wtf is going on here?

1) don't want because the access to exploitable labor has depressed wages

2) your're talking about introducing legal competition in a depressed job market. Currently the competition is illegal

 

[Cephus]

Exactly, maybe we should legalize undocumented immigrants so they can legally work? Undocumented immigrants work with no terms or conditions. Sounds like modern day slavery to me.

Which is about as idiotic as saying let's just legalize murder so they can do it legally. Why not reward the people who are doing something wrong?

Absurd.

 

[ptif219]

Obama is focusing on criminals because he does not want to deport any student that would qualify for a path to citizenship under the dream act. Thousands of undocumented students are attempting to earn college degrees so day can one day be productive citizens and give back to the community. Notice how the student said people like me. I am all for higher education.

So then we should let anybody come here from any country and pay for them to get a degree.

 

[ptif219]

If Obama was focusing on the criminals then he would be focusing on ALL illegal aliens. There is a reason that they are called "illegal". That reason being that they broke the law by coming here without permission. Anyone that breaks the law is by definition a criminal.

That is why liberals do not call the illegal but call them undocumented so they do not sound like criminals.

 

[Cephus]

That is why liberals do not call the illegal but call them undocumented so they do not sound like criminals.

Of course, they're playing word games. They always say "you're against immigration!" No, we're against *ILLEGAL* immigration. It's blatantly dishonest to ignore that word and pretend it doesn't exist.

 

[Kal'Stang]

Exactly, maybe we should legalize undocumented immigrants so they can legally work? Undocumented immigrants work with no terms or conditions. Sounds like modern day slavery to me.

They do it of their own free will. They are quite free to go back to thier country of origin at any time. IE not slavery. Nice try at a strawman though.

 

[Kal'Stang]

That is why liberals do not call the illegal but call them undocumented so they do not sound like criminals.

Exactly. It's purely a word game to try and dupe the average American. Unfortenately quite a few fall for it.

 

[majora$$hole]

Not really most Americans would not choose to do the jobs they do nor would they settle for them to a great degree of elasticity. Also structurally adjusting all those folks into the jobs illegals take would probably be quite an issue in many ways.

you are telling this to a LEGAL american who cleans **** spakled pots for a living. you are greatly misinformed!!

 

[majora$$hole]

That's circular logic. A simple solution would be to make citizenship easier or do away with those laws alltogether. Would you still be opposed to such an idea?



Alright, I'll bite, but you haven't demonstrated that to be a bad thing. Using that logic this nation was founded by invaders. Why shouldn't we encourage "invasion" in that case?



That's not very convincing, because there is no reason why someone would prefer to hire an illegal immigrant who doesn't speak English over an American -- unless they are willing to do the same amount of work for a lower wage -- in which case we are talking about a free market with labor competition. I personally support free markets, so I would not be opposed to that at all.

I think the real problem is this sense of entitlement Americans seem to have for everything. Illegals do jobs that Americans don't want to do for similar wages, plain and simple. They'd rather collect unemployment benefits for years on end or some other government handout. Again I see the real problem being the social programs, not immigration.

There is a hint of racism there whether you're willing to acknowledge it or not. As Americans we feel we are "above" illegals, their lifestyles, jobs, wages, etc. I don't expect anyone to ever admit to it, but I will, I think everyone is guilty of it.



That's ironic, you're the one who seems to be ignorant of economic realities. Removing illegals does not solve the problem, instead we get what is known as "outsourcing." You seem to forget that there is no such thing as a free lunch. Higher wages are always reflected in higher prices -- period. They increase the cost of doing business, which reduces profits and makes such models less competitive. If you want an example of this look at non-unionized Honda wages vs General Motors.

Wages can't properly be dictated by a government, but rather the free market. I suppose if machines were doing all the work you'd be telling us to get rid of the machines? Technology has claimed exponentially more jobs than illegal immigration, it's just much harder to rally around an "anti-technology" platform and not look like a complete fool.

okay any illegal wanting citizenship needs to join the military and PROVE they want in this country that would solve two problems with one stone. pretty much the way my ancestors did it.

 

[majora$$hole]

You seem to be arguing semantics here and don't appear to be interested in a rational discussion of the issue. So what if I had replaced "immigrants" with "illegal immigrants" how would that have changed anything? Would your objections (as I have understood them to be) be any different?

In fact you really haven't raised any objections, except basically stating that illegal immigration is a problem because immigrants are here illegally and they shouldn't be. That's circular logic. A simple solution to such a simple problem is to legalize immigration and grant amnesty, so unless you agree with that answer to your problem, please elaborate on your issue with illegal immigration.

how is it "circular logic" again? the SIMPLE solution would be to pull the license to opperate any business hiring these people illegally and BREAKING our laws or CHANGE the law.

 

[majora$$hole]

The problem is illegal immigrants

and the scumbag businesses ILLEGALY hiring them.

 

[Binky]

Most opposition to immigration seems to be in the form of immigrants being a "drain on society" because they use social programs like health care and education and don't pay taxes.

My question: Isn't the problem then, the social programs? It seems like if you cut the social programs then immigration wouldn't be an issue anymore.

It isn't immigration that's the problem, but rather "illegal immigration." There's a difference. Oddly enough, whenever someone decides to talk about it they call it immigration, as tho' we're having problems with those that come here legally and/or go thru the steps to become citizens. Well, sorry to burst that theory, but last I knew, it was the illegal part of it that has been causing us the problems, such as monetary spending by enabling them, arresting and tossing 'em in jail etc. Lumping them with immigration, per se, is trying to avoid the fact that they are illegal. Covering up that they are in fact, here illegally. Try to survive illegally in Mexico, China, Iran, Irag, Cuba, and Venezuala and see where it gets you. You'll discover the difference between immigration and illegal immigration in a heartbeat.

 

[MKULTRABOY]

Which is about as idiotic as saying let's just legalize murder so they can do it legally. Why not reward the people who are doing something wrong?

Absurd.

Analogising illegal immigration to murder again? I expected at least you could keep it classier. /sigh

 

[MKULTRABOY]

Try to survive illegally in Mexico, China, Iran, Irag, Cuba, and Venezuala and see where it gets you.

Its easier to survive illegally in mexico, plenty of people migrate through central america without documentation (how do you think they get to the states) Cuba and Venezuela would take the same bureaucratic steps to deport you as they would if you were found in the US. They don't toss you in a dungeon to die... They do have laws, you know.... =\

 

[ManofthPeephole]

Its easier to survive illegally in mexico, plenty of people migrate through central america without documentation (how do you think they get to the states) Cuba and Venezuela would take the same bureaucratic steps to deport you as they would if you were found in the US. They don't toss you in a dungeon to die... They do have laws, you know.... =\

I'll have to search for it, but I remember reading an article on violence directed at south, and central, american immigrants in Mexico, via state institutions and gangs. Being that I can't remember what outlet published it, i can't really speak to it's validity

 

[MKULTRABOY]

I'll have to search for it, but I remember reading an article on violence directed at south, and central, american immigrants in Mexico, via state institutions and gangs. Being that I can't remember what outlet published it, i can't really speak to it's validity

I wouldn't disbelieve it, but it still wouldn't be a state policy.