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I do not doubt there are people who claim they were straight and claim they are now gay. I also do not doubt there are people who claim they were gay and they are now straight. What I doubt is how fixed they were in their orientation to begin with given that a small percentage of humans seem to have exceptionally high sexual flexibility. It has been proposed that the individuals who are most certain that change efforts are possible are people with a bisexual orientation who assume that everyone is like them and can choose which sex to focus their attention towards.
Does anyone decide to be heterosexual?
I propose that the individuals who are most certain that change efforts are impossible are people who identify as straight or gay and assume that everyone is like them and can not choose which sex to focus their attention towards.
shrugs.
It hurts the argument when people who say orientation is fixed respond with... well, if you think you changed you must be a bisexual and you really didn't change at all. Now how can that phrase be thrown back at me with substituted words?
If i think... that people can't change... then they are just in the gay or straight phase and haven't changed yet... Wait. that doesn't work. beats me.
I disagree. By that logic, soldiers with PTSD choose to have the issues they are having.
I do. Everyday of my life so far. No intention to choose to be homosexual at this point. (And there are personal reasons for that) but who knows in the future?
I do. Everyday of my life so far. No intention to choose to be homosexual at this point. (And there are personal reasons for that) but who knows in the future?
I would agree with you if the circumstance was adjustable by venue. Don't take offense to this but have you ever been in a circumstance where you thought that the same sex was more attractive than the opposite? The circumstance that needed to exist is that I found men not sexually appealing, more so than the particular female I was with. Take the most amazingly attractive women on the planet, not just looks, personality, humor the whole package. I wouldn't find her as attractive as my boyfriend, she hasn't a penis, she has breasts, where this things are nice, they are not as good as what I have. It's hard to explain just right but having sex with women is not exactly possible, much less tolerating sharing my life with one. If I didn't find men sexually and romantically attractive I would be asexual or non sexual. The dozens of women I had dated don't compare at all to the threemales that I have been with. That is pretty damning evidence. On top of that, I deeply loved more women then men. It tore me up to be with them, they deserved a straight man, I convinced myself that I could love enough to make one in particular become more of a compatible partner for me. It was her words that convinced me I was gay. I was with her for three years. She told me I was distant during sex, I couldn't last long. She told me one day that we had to talk. She asked me if I had been with a guy before, I confessed that i did once sleep with a boy when i was a boy and that I had a secret boyfriend that ended horribly two years before I meet her. I hated the experience i had with Josh when i was 19, I wad convinced it was because I want gay. Dated some women on and off then I meet her. Fell in love. it just broke my heart when she found out I was gay, that made me hate myself. If I had just tried harder. But her words were kind to me eventhough her heart was broken and she had all right to be angry with me, she told me that I tried for three years and never made it work. She always had a doubt about me though I never strayed from her, she did from me but I can't blame her the sex was so unsatisfying.I wish to suggest alternate conclusions based on your experience. It may only be a matter of the words you chose in your post. If that's the case, then my suggestions may be misapplied. Here they are.... You said it never really worked, but could it have worked if a circumstance or two or three were different? Such as a location, a relative, or anything in your environment that had an influence?
You said that it is an illusion. I think "illusion" is a value-based term. In other words, whether or not it is an illusion is in the eye of the beholder. Of course, this is your experience and you are the expert on it.
I don't like assuming ALL people in a group are the same. That kind of assumption very rarely fans out, especially when dealing with a self identifying group.
But let's look at the evidence.
Homophobics May Be Hidden Homosexuals | Homophobia & Anti-Gay Sentiment | LiveScience
Do you have to seriously consider it each Day? Does it eve cross your mind that maybe today you'll have sex with someon father same sex?
I agree with your first statement. I think the reason those assumptions are weak is because people cling to differences, as soon as they discover a difference, the assumption fails. I suggest we re-define "difference, similarity, orientation." I think re-defining would ... preclude any of our assumptions from failing.
regarding the article you linked....
"The researchers said quicker reaction time for "me" and "gay," and a slower association of "me" with "straight" would indicate said an implicit gay orientation. "
Please. That's an opinion. The quicker reaction time could mean that it is easier for me to identify what I am Not, than what I am. as in... A big ugly goofball?... NO! A dashing casanova? ... well, ... um.. (tick-tock tic-tock) yes.
"In another experiment, the researchers measured implicit sexual orientation by having participants choose to browse same-sex or opposite-sex photos on a computer screen."
I could be straight as an arrow yet still spend time looking at gay porn just because i'm interested from an intellectual standpoint.
"This inner conflict can be seen in some high-profile cases in which anti-gay public figures are caught engaging in same-sex acts, the researchers say. For instance, evangelical preacher and anti-gay-marriage advocate Ted Haggard was caught in a gay sex scandal in 2006. And in 2010, prominent anti-gay activist and co-founder of conservative Family Research Council George Rekers was reportedly spotted in 2010 with a male escort rented from Rentboy.com. According to news reports, the escort confirmed Rekers is gay."
Again.. the conclusion. I question Why was Ted Haggard anti-gay? Was he anti-gay because he thought gays were deviant and subhuman? or was he anti-gay because he recognized a platform by which he could gain political power?
Thank you for pointing that out. I'll clarify. The issues that soldiers have (emotional numbing, hypervigilance, thrill seeking) ARE the PTSD. You get me? PTSd manifest as those issues. They are one and the same.
Sexual assault however, is not one and the same as changing one's orientation. -in my opinion.
Are you suggesting that you could look at a member of the same sex, become sexually aroused, and if you chose to do so, have a pleasurable sexual encounter with them?
Hell yeah! That's why I'm saying that orientation is a choice. That's what we have been debating. haven't we?
No. its a habit. its automatic. i don't give serious thought to it at all. Habits and programming can be broken, though, right?
I do. Everyday of my life so far. No intention to choose to be homosexual at this point. (And there are personal reasons for that) but who knows in the future?
But you stated that the trauma of the sexual assault is the catalyst for her choice to change orientations. Then by logical extension, the trauma that the soliders experience is the catalyst for them to choose to be emotionally numb, hypervigilance, etc.
Now I agree that it's not the same as being born with a given orientation, nor was that my argument. I merely countered iacardsfan's assertion that for one to "change" one has to have had some level of attraction prior to the "change". However, in my sister's case, while not a choice, the change is indeed a change and most likely a reversible one should he ever bother to get proper treatment. Right now she is living a happy, functional life so I doubt that it will be.
Maybe. But if it never occurs to you, there really isn't a choice being made. It's a response. Think about when you were sixteen and how your body responded. What if your body responded automatically the same way, to a man as it did to a female? That would require a choice. But if it only responded automatically one way? Where's the choice?
Have you considered the possibility that you are bisexual and that other people who identify as "gay" or "straight" may not be as capable of choosing as you are?
In the ptsd example, there is only one event: PTSD. This event can manifest as numbing, vigilance, thrill seeking.
In the example of -- your sister, was it?-- there were two events. Sexual assault followed by a change in orientation.
My view on this, is based on my belief that orientation is voluntary. Therefore, I can not agree that the sexual assault forced her to change. If this seems illogical to you.... well, i'm not sure i have an explanation. It is my belief that I'm expressing. But I've been at this for hours now and i'm getting tired.
If you argue that there must have been an event that caused the PTSD... seeing your buddies blown up, then yes, i would agree that that event caused/forced the PTSD. Again, I can't agree that assault forced a change. Well, if you want to get down to teh nitty gritty... I might agree that the assault forced her to change, but then therapy or just her own thinking/healing absent of external treatment, allowed her to choose to change her orientation back.
Oh boy. it's late. i hope i can express myself clearly. I want to. but my attention span is fading. here we go...
It became a habit as a result of a choice that i made consistently. at first, at a young age, i responded to my programming-- the images and messages i received from media, school, parents etc...--- I would agree that there was no choice there. But at some point during my development, early teens maybe? late teens? I don't know.... I reallied that I COULD choose. I decided that I could ignore programming. It has been a choice ever since.
I agree with your first statement. I think the reason those assumptions are weak is because people cling to differences, as soon as they discover a difference, the assumption fails. I suggest we re-define "difference, similarity, orientation." I think re-defining would ... preclude any of our assumptions from failing.
regarding the article you linked....
"The researchers said quicker reaction time for "me" and "gay," and a slower association of "me" with "straight" would indicate said an implicit gay orientation. "
Please. That's an opinion. The quicker reaction time could mean that it is easier for me to identify what I am Not, than what I am. as in... A big ugly goofball?... NO! A dashing casanova? ... well, ... um.. (tick-tock tic-tock) yes.
"In another experiment, the researchers measured implicit sexual orientation by having participants choose to browse same-sex or opposite-sex photos on a computer screen."
I could be straight as an arrow yet still spend time looking at gay porn just because i'm interested from an intellectual standpoint.
"This inner conflict can be seen in some high-profile cases in which anti-gay public figures are caught engaging in same-sex acts, the researchers say. For instance, evangelical preacher and anti-gay-marriage advocate Ted Haggard was caught in a gay sex scandal in 2006. And in 2010, prominent anti-gay activist and co-founder of conservative Family Research Council George Rekers was reportedly spotted in 2010 with a male escort rented from Rentboy.com. According to news reports, the escort confirmed Rekers is gay."
Again.. the conclusion. I question Why was Ted Haggard anti-gay? Was he anti-gay because he thought gays were deviant and subhuman? or was he anti-gay because he recognized a platform by which he could gain political power?
Dude, you propose that all gays are the same. You simply argue that they can ALL choose to not be gay.
However you want to interpret it. I think at a certain point though, you are beginning to rationalize your confirmation bias. I'm off to bed, but I would like to see if you could provide some good evidence that homosexuality can be changed. Given that you are so ready to dismiss evidence that suggests otherwise, you must have some pretty excellent evidence beyond a few anecdotal accounts to support your conclusion that gays can choose not to be gay.
Messages reinforce social norms for the most part, but at sixteen, that is not what makes a young mans body respond. He response to visual stimuli, and automatically. If ths doesn't happen when you see both sexes, there is no logical way ant choice is involved. And frankly, if you haven't taken both out for a test drive, there's no way to make an informed choice.
ahh boo boo boo. we are getting deeper into this topic. response to visual stimuli. lets talk about that. what happens when i look at something? are my eyes being forced to look at the naked body? in my opinion... no. I am choosing to point my eyes towards the naked body.
am i looking but thinking of something else? maybe. that's a choice.
does my penis automatically become erect? in my opinion... no.
what else happens? do i imagine or think of pleasant exercises to do with that naked body? yes. is that a choice? yes. unless you think the i cant control my own thoughts (which is true in cases of mental illness but that is not part of this example.)
and when i start to think about that naked body touching mine, do i get a pleasurable response? assuming that the touches are pleasing to me, then yes. I get the pleasurable response.
Now going back to the beginning, what was the cause of that response...? the response was caused by my choices. 1) choosing to point my eyes 2) choosing to think of the body and not to think about my math test tomorrow 3) choosing to imagine doing things to that body that i would like
ta-da! erection! yay!
now whether the body was a man's or a woman's, it is my choice what i will do with my eyes, my attention and my thoughts. the choices lead to the erection. and if i want the erection, nothing will stop me from making the choices to get it.
Given that you are so ready to dismiss evidence that suggests otherwise, you must have some pretty excellent evidence beyond a few anecdotal accounts to support your conclusion that gays can choose not to be gay.
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