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Is having sex with transgender women gay?

That's what subjective means guy. I feel like most of this could be cleared up by you just looking up these defintions. 😂

Things that have objective value, like the distance from the Earth to the moon at any given point in our orbits for instance, doesnt vary person to person, that's what makes it objective. If I measured the distance from the Earth to the moon and you measured the distance from the earth to the moon we should observe the same value. It is this value of distance that we are observing rather than something we are saying about our own sentiments. In contrast when make subjective evaluations there is no one observed value. Is the moon beautiful? Ugly? Calming? Frightening? These subjective evaluations vary person to person. This is what subjectivity is. Personal feelings. Were you unaware feelings vary person to person?
What you have described are varying reactions, not varying degrees. "Calming" and "frightening" are not like graduated levels on a thermometer, they're totally different reactions.
Nothing objective. The differences amount to subjective personal preference.
Then there's no justification for the term "degrees."
What is the objective value being observed? In this scenario we observe someone who doesnt want to be raped and someone who wants to rape. You tell me what gives one want more objective, i.e observed value than the other?
Logical necessity.
My argument isn't that rules of society are random but a result of the personal preferences of the people in said society and their law makers. If you would look up the defintion of subjective you'd see its defined as being based in personal feelings, tastes and opinions.
I have already specified that the standard definitions of objective and subjective have been superseded by more meaningful conceptualizations.
Material phenomena? You mean the world of matter and energy? What false analogy am I making? Do laws not come from people and their personal feelings, tastes and opinions?
Yes, you continue to misinterpret material phenomena as possessing a validity it does not possess, as compared to cultural phenomena, which come from biological imperatives. You might as well say that evolution possesses no validity because sometimes it produces bad adaptations, as say that cultural phenomena lack validity because some of them don't always work the way you think they should.
It's not my feelings I'm using to make counter arguments, it's intellect and rationality. If not personal feelings, sentiments and opinions where do laws come from?
See above.
 
To you alone.
I can't help it if you won't emotionally accept the objective facts but martial rape of wives, who were voting citizens by the 1970s when this country began criminalizing it, was a real thing.
Decisions are made by whoever's in authority,
Which is decribing subjective personal preference of some ruler, rulers, law makers, governing body, tribal council, or whatever you want to call whoever dictates societies rules.
which comes down to who has the most temporal power.
So authority and the legal systems that underpin them are dictated by force. So far everything you're saying is in support of what I've been arguing. Subjectivity.
Not all decisions have lasting efficacy, and as I said somewhere, many cultures that permitted slavery profited in the short term but not in the long term. One can argue that those particular decisions did not prove to have logical necessity behind them, as do laws against rape and theft.
Again what is logical necessity? You've yet to define what that even is. You can make a case this country profited greatly in the short term and the long term from slavery and rape, if you're making the case from the perspective of the slavers. The wealth this country was able to derive off the backs of slaves turned this county into a global super power and maintaing the slave population to fuel that growth took a lot of rape. You keep trying to argue that laws against rape are logically necessary but the American Slave empire would of sputtered and stalled out without a whole lot of rape. Only about half a million slaves made it here from the trans Atlantic slave trade but nearly 4 million were here by the time we get to the civil war. That took a lot of rape. Its diminishing to call them exceptions as if these rapes dont matter but this distinction you're trying to make between citizens and slaves is meaningless because it's the law makers themselves who are deciding who's who.
But they weren't purely subjective either, since having (and selling) slaves confers objective short-term benefits to a society.
Benefits are subjective since they are based on personal feelings, preference and sentiments be they the sentiments of an individual or a group of individuals. For a society ruled by slavers the slavers might deem some benefit from slavery but the slaves don't and the slavers do no comprise all of society. The slaves are also part of any slaver society least you forget.

Your attempts to describe society itself as one singular entity rather than a collection of many individuals is not an accurate description of what society is even if it conveniently allows you to ignore the sentiments of the exploited for the sake of your argument. Why do you only see society through the lens of the exploiters and never consider the lens of the people they are exploiting?
Do you believe that the societies that codified laws on permitting nonconsensual spousal sex considered that practice to be "rape," just because you do?
No I do not but that's only further proving the subjective nature of laws. Whether their laws subjectively recognized it as rape or not, forcing yourself on someone sexually against their will is objectively what rape is. Laws can can decide that when you force yourself on your wife against her will that isnt rape and they can call whoever they want citizen and they can call other people property and slave. These are reflections of legal opinion rather than objective fact.
Obviously for those societies, the fact that the wife agrees to the union means that she agrees to male dominion, given that this would be the ideal put forth in such societies, whereas the victim being attacked at random on the street has made no such agreement.
For those societies? How about for you? Does a woman agreeing to marriage mean she can't be raped? And doesn't the phrase, ideal put forth by those societies, not suggest subjectivity to you? You're thinking of legal consent which, again, is subjective, as opppsed to whether the wife is objectively consenting or not to sex.
 
In practice, the conflicts between couples probably don't really come down to just "he can rape her, and she can't say boo about it legally." You assume that none of the societies you excoriate allow any leeway in practice even if they appear to come down, in theory, to total male dominion.
No, the only one making unfounded assumptions about what is necessary for all societies is you. I showed how you could legally rape citizens in this one. Your maybe it was more nuanced than that is weak and poorly defined. Come back when you have more clearer, definitive, counter argument.
In Genesis, after Adam and Eve are kicked out of Paradise, God tells Eve that all her female children will be under the dominion of their husbands. Okay, but what's the actual first post-Eden male/female conflict in Genesis? It's when Sarah demands of Abraham that, now that she Sarah is pregnant, that means Abraham must kick bondswoman Hagar and her progeny to the curb, since the only reason for Abraham to sire a child on Hagar was to ensure an heir. Does Abraham just tell Sarah, "Shut up or I'll rape you?" No, he accedes to Sarah's societally valid demand and sends Hagar and Ishmael away. Is it fiction? Sure, but it captures the ambiguities of actual life better than a doctrinaire reading of book-laws.
Nevermind you do have evidence. My counter argument is that the Easter Bunny told me that Adam was a cuck.
Gravity exists because of bodies impinging on one another and so does society.
Unlike gravity, societies are acting on the subjective intentions of its law makers. They are no objective intentions. Intentions are subjective.
Nope, physical laws are not more real than societal laws.
Physical laws have objective value and social laws have subjective value. Objective values can be measured, subjective values change person to person.
The reaction of an individual's violation of logically necessary societal rules is comparable to a new physical body entering a space in which other bodies have established equilibrium.

The laws of gravity react to the new body by seeking to compensate for its mass. The laws of society react to the violation in the same way, seeking equilibrium once more.
It is not. Bodies in space can't decide to throw the rules of physical reality out on a whim and write new ones. That equilibrium is established by objective values. Social rules can be changed, thrown out, re-written, forgotten, ignored, broken, and subverted and do not possess any power in and of themselves but are imposed through physical acts of force that people are choosing to engage in. They are in no way necessary. You can endeavor to live absolutely free of any socal rules and in a state of anarchy if you wanted to or without physically imposing yourself on others.
 
Nope, because not all laws are influenced by taste alone, since some are rooted in logical necessity.
You have not described what logical necessity is. Laws and rules can only be imposed by force and there is no logical necessity for you to force yourself on someone, just subjective desire.
You argued against functional objectivity repeatedly on the atheist thread, so even if you claim not to remember arguments later (but think I ought to commit your bon mots to memory), you have encountered the concept before. I argued that the victim's desire not to be raped (and potentially murdered in consequence) was objective because that desire functioned to promote individual survival and so was not a particular "subjective want."
What's the functional objective difference in not wanting to be raped and not wanting to eat tripe, for example? Whats particular about that other than you caring more about whether people like to be raped than you do what people like to eat? Have you been back to atheist thread to address my counter argument of this argument?
By contrast, the rapist's desire to rape is only a subjective want and lacks any kind of objective status.
I don't understand the functional distinction you're trying to make there between the woman's desire not to be raped or eat tripe and the man's desire to rape. What in your mind is elevating a want from a subjective want to an objective want?
I know you'd like to think that my giving the objective status a new name indicates incoherence on my part. The incoherence remains yours because you can't keep track of what we've been arguing about for a few months now.
I just responded to 10 posts of yours the other day, excuse me if I don't immediately recognize one of your pervious arguments. There's a lot of them.
Nope, you are using only so much "reason and logic" as functions in your closed-off philosophical system. Your logical "observations" fail because they have no broad applicability to the real world.
I'm the one who pointed out to you that citizen wives could be raped in the real world and you came back to me with a Bible story. Have some self awareness.
No "whims" are involved. One group is stronger, the other weaker, so the members of the latter group become slaves, tolerating the situation until (a) they can take advantage of changing laws (like Sojourner Truth did) or (b) by fleeing their masters to other territories,
Enslaving someone isn't a whim but rape is? What's that logic? Why doesn't it appear to make any sense? I could have objectively longer legs than you that doesnt mean I have to kick you. What does one thing have to do with the other? What kind of logic are you operating under? Why isn't it consistent? If a man is objectively stronger than a woman then your logic appears to suggest it isn't a whim when he uses his objective strength to force her into sex.

See argument re your subjective interpretation of marital laws.

I said your interpretation is dubious, and it will remain dubious no matter what skewed citations you might come up with.
You can call my arguments names all you like but you can't make any of your arguments make any sense, that's the problem.
 
What you have described are varying reactions, not varying degrees.
Same difference, we're just using different words.
"Calming" and "frightening" are not like graduated levels on a thermometer, they're totally different reactions.
Exactly. They are subjective and graduated levels in a thermometer represent an objective measurement. That's my point.
Then there's no justification for the term "degrees."
Theres just you trying to make it mean something I never intended.
Logical necessity.
Which is what exactly?
I have already specified that the standard definitions of objective and subjective have been superseded by more meaningful conceptualizations.
Meaningful to who? What are these conceptualizations?
Yes, you continue to misinterpret material phenomena as possessing a validity it does not possess, as compared to cultural phenomena, which come from biological imperatives.
I recognize culture as real I just don't recognize its rules as objective. Biological imperatives suggest subjectivity, not objectivity.
You might as well say that evolution possesses no validity because sometimes it produces bad adaptations, as say that cultural phenomena lack validity because some of them don't always work the way you think they should.

See above.
I'm not saying that though. I'm questioning what you think is validating society beyond subjective sentiment.
 
What? My argument had nothing to do with evolution or why some organisms give birth to live offspring. It has to do with the subjective category of organisms we call mammals.
And your pointless aversion to categories blinds you to what is being categorized. The category of monotremes is not subjective in the least; it accurately shows that the creatures in the category are exceptions to the dominant evolutionary aspects of mammals, and that disproves your overly simple view that "nature just is." Biological rules have exceptions as much as human laws; you just blink at them so that you can view physical law as "objective." Your definition failed before and it still fails.
And so the monotremes were exceptions to a rule.
Sure it is. Nature didn't lump organisms together in to a category called mammals, we did. That category is our creation. To be clear I'm not saying we created the physical characteristics of the organisms we observe, I'm saying we took characteristics we observed across different organisms and lump them together in a group called mammals because it provides some subjective significance to us.
Nope, the significance of the categories was just as objective as the observations, as long as the categories represent correct observations.
I'm pointing out that rules created by humans are subjective and have exceptions because they are not objectively real. Objectively real things just are. They exist as is. There are organisms that give birth to live offspring. Organisms that lay eggs. Organisms that self replicate. These are all objectively true. You won't find an exception to objective reality.
I just described one and you chose to dismiss it with a sophistic argument. If it helps-- not that I really think anything will-- egg-laying mammals are not exceptions to the mere existence of live-bearing mammals, which seems to be your misinterpretation. The former are exceptions to the PROCESS, which in this case is the nearest thing nature has to rules, by which live-bearing mammals became the dominant mammalian form.
 
What? 😂 This should be amusing....

😂 As I thought, amusing.
In all modesty, I can't top you.
My argument isnt that choices are random. Thats the second time you've made that erroneous claim. My argument is that your feelings, your sentiments and your opinions and those of others or a collection of others represent subjective beliefs. Beliefs that vary person to person, group to group, as opposed to objective observations of the natural world around us. That means we observe that these ants and that some people and groups of people enslave. We observe that is a thing that happens. Thats all observation gives us. Slavery is a thing that we see happening. That's an observation. How you feel about it is what is subjective. Lets say you detest slavery, or rape or theft (so long as they're being committed against white people) and so if you're a slaver Founder you craft laws that say if people engage in these activities (against white people) you're going respond with some level of force. Its okay to slave and rape and steal from those other people though because as slaver Founders we don't care about them.
When you state as you have that beliefs vary from person to person, that whole "every man is an island" is your endorsement of randomness, whether you acknowledge it or not. You are claiming, as you always do, that all things subjective are epiphenomenal. That's why I sought to educate you by showing you an example of slavery that is not rooted in subjectivity but in that physical nature that you deem to be completely objective. Your pathetic leading question avoided that argument, but your inability to address major problems in your outdated "objective/subjective" dogma is at least fitfully amusing.
Nope. But again, this has nothing to do with my argument and everything to do with you not understanding the difference between the objective and the subjective or the difference between people and ants. Can a worker ant decide to become a poet ant? Do ants appear to have free will and freedom of choice?
Are the habits of ants objective in nature? Well, they must be, according to you, because "nature just is." However, a more balanced view would be that, since slaver-ants are a very small minority within the totality of ant species, they comprise a very small evolutionary niche, like the monotremes. And that makes them exceptions-- which means you ought to like them better than non-slaver ants, because all of your arguments are founded on exceptions.
Ants dont appear to have the freedom of choice that we have. Taking and raping women can also be socially advantageous as the slaver Founders proved, but you don't have to like it, and we don't have to order society around protecting it.
But if all subjectivities operate on this "every man is an island" standard you've championed, then there's no reason to revile anything anyone does, even if one does so (and as you do) pretends to do so simply out of subjective pique.
You tell me, its your argument. Be brave enough to formulate a conclusion. Do ants appear to have freedom choice to you? Do we have to have laws that protect a slavers rights to rape or a husbands? Or can we choose to act differently? Because it seems to me we can choose differently and ants can't.
Are ant societies created by non-subjective nature or not?
And Im happy enough pointing out we arent ants. 😂
But you are claiming that everything physical is insuperably real, "it just is." So the biological utilization of slavery is one of those real things, not rooted in subjectivity. If you are claiming that humans are AN EXCEPTION, what makes them so?
Like you interpreting free will through that of ants? 😂
Where did I say anything about free will?
The fact that I can have a difference of opinion than you on this should be evidence enough of its subjectivity.
But as your clumsy example above shows, you don't really believe YOUR opinion to be subjective, no matter how much lip service you pay to that fiction.
No, you were just likening human behavior to ant colonies... 😂
In order to show you the error of your philosophy, again.
 
Is this supposed to be a counter argument or a diary entry about how you feel about me?
Just talking to you in your own language.
How can significance be objective? Significance is a feeling.
It's a feeling after the fact of making an accurate determination. It's another of those pesky places where the objective and subjective merge.
They remain exceptions to the category called mammals. A thing we created. In nature there is no group of organisms called mammals. That's not something you've observed.
The data that you deem objective is not made subjective because it's been placed in a category. Categorizing is part of the observing process, not a separate thing. Let's see if you can respond with your "intellect" to I.A. Richards' illustration of the phenomenon of what he called "sorting:" if an amoeba learns to classify, in its instinctive way, other subatomic denizens as either "things that will eat me" or as "things that won't eat me," are those categories inapplicable because they inconvenience your view of perfect objectivity?
I didn't even use the word random above. 😂
Randomness is implied in your definition of subjectivity as confined to the personal feelings of an individual.
 
What do you think slavery was? You know there were child slaves right? Bigger slaver Founders, beat, whipped, raped and stole from men but also women and children as well.
And the evil slavers also took the food from the slaves' mouths so that they would starve and not be able to work the fields any more. Wow, big swerve even for you.
But its not universal. Who gets to be seen as smaller fellow worth protecting and who gets to be a smaller fellow who gets enslaved is based on personal preference.
I gave you an objective example re; physical size and you made it subjective. Good one!
Why? Because that's inconvenient for your argument? And what about the citizen wives that could be raped by their citizen husbands?
My argument re the logical necessity of rules against theft and rape remains that those rules are not nullified by any of your exceptions, because you are defining them poorly.
And will is subjective. I dont have to share your will and wants.
The will of the governed can be variable, as per the arguments among 19th-century White people as to whether slavery should continue in the States. So yes, I've never denied that some societal rules are made variable by subjective desires on both sides. But others are determined by logical necessity of what best promotes survival.
Just because there is some objective threat, that does not make your response to said threat objective, or not a matter choice, feeling or opinion. There are any number of ways to deal with threats.
And some of those responses are objective, which is all that matters.
That doesnt help me. Different cultures have different rules.
More relativism from the alleged objectivist.
I think you're just too frail to give any consideration to evidence that disputes your claims.

Marital Rape

I'll be sure to read it after you come up with a valid response to the transgender citation.
What? Whats not an objective fact is that you have to treat anyone like a slave. That's a choice. Really, how ****ing hard is this? 😂
The objective factor is that at the genesis of human societies, the strong dominated the weak, just as in most animal societies. But the weak can come up with their own objective response, by articulating laws that bind even the strong-- which also has non-intellectual parallels in animal societies. But in both situations, individual choice is not a factor.
What the hell is this argument about? How did we arrive at the place where you're arguing slavery is some social necessity? 😂
Not what I argued. See above.
God damnit man just look up what the ****ing words mean.... 😂

Wanting slaves is a subjective choice my guy. Do you want slaves? I don't want slaves.
God damnit man; read some Hegel!!
 
That wasn't my argument. My argument was that there are biological factors for trans identifies, and that it's not just made up. Not that they were the sole reason. This paper is critiquing those studies for further pathologizing Trans identities, like previous attempts to find the gay gene, and trying to fit what they see going on in the brain into this preconceived notion of male and female brains. They suggest that there is mosaic of brain differences suggesting not simply a male and female brain but, like we see with intersex people, a myriad of biological differences in the brain with some parts maybe presenting as more masculine and some others more feminine and that there isn't one cause but a number of biological and maybe environmental and social interactions unfolding over time.
There was no "maybe" in the author's privileging of environmental and social interactions over those of biological determinism, which you championed.
Science is on our side. This paper doesn't suggest biology isn't involved here.
Now THAT's where the "maybe" was.
There is no ideology except the pursuit of understanding and if anything the paper you linked to is critizing them for being too reliant on an ideological belief of brain dimorphism and brains being having to be either male or female.
The trans ideologues I have critiqued favor biological determinism and you've given no reason that people should not consider you one such.
Purely biological isnt a phrase you'll find in anything I wrote.
Yep, you're a great for adequately interpreting what others write. Not.
When they say social factors they don't mean subjective choice. Like sexuality, it could be a mix of biology and environment and social interactions all influencing development. Social interactions and exposer can influence how your brain develops.
And these are the sort of environmental and social interactions that also give rise to rules against theft and rape. But your subjective bias leads you to champion the first but find false exceptions to the second.
 
Yes. Same goes for everyone else as well. Did you think your moral judgements get signed off on by some objective authority? 😂
Nope, but you think yours have objective authority, which is why you started the slavery discussion, under the false impression that it would win the argument for you. Didn't even come close.
That's a lot of claims and no evidence. Quote me. 😂 Why is it you find proving your claims to be so difficult?

You proved my assertion every time you argued that trans women convicts ought to be able to create their own laws with the threat of legal action.
😂

The emotion I'm expressing is amusement at your frail strawmen.
Well, I'm sure your emotions also include your egoistic conviction that you have fought the power with your illogical jeremiads.
😂

Nowhere did I say they whole burden of guilt is on the prison system. Stop being frail. You yourself said the prison system was partly responsible when it was a female on female assault and I didn't feel the need to flop around like a frail ****tard pretending about it.
Again, you refuse to criticize the way trans women convicts have gamed the system and resort to attacking the prison system. That's as frail and fragile as it gets.
Can't quote me? 😂😂😂
It's fatuous for you to complain about false imputations after making so many yourself.
Nope. Rights being imaginary doesnt mean I don't imagine some good uses for them. You don't do so well with critical thinking, do you? 😂😂😂
like I said before, you determine what subjective things are real according to your personal preferences.
That's why you let me run you off your atheism thread huh? 🤣🤣🤣
I was thread-banned, Mister Critical Thinker. And it didn't even have to do with anything you posted, either, so get over yourself.
 
More claims, no supporting evidence or argument why this is the case....
Already done. Review previous threads.
Then why do you keep focusing on me instead of my arguments?
You keep claiming you've used your intellect to correctly analyze objective nature, so every time you say something dumb, you invite the Big Yocks.
By quoting her? You cant even be brave enough tell us what you think essential means even though its the basis for your entire argument. 😂
I analyzed the context of her statement, and "essential" really doesn't support your "pretense" interpretation.
It doesnt. This is again you displaying your problems with critical thought. I said biology is objective, race is a social construct. For instance in this country we had the one drop rule meaning it doesn't matter if biologically you were the product of an African mother and European father, you were considered Black, because race wasnt about biology it was about finding excuses for bigotry and exploitation. As I pointed out there is more genetic diversity with Africa than between Africa and Europeans which means someone who could socially be considered Black could be more genetically similar to a white European than another black African.
That's your interpretation, but it's not Dolazel's just because you find it convenient to misrepresent her views.
Says the person never talking science and giving explanations like I did above but constantly talking about me.
I've talked more science here on this thread than you. I just don't gloss my definition of science with the false dichotomy, "Data is objective but categories are subjective." Say it some more; it's funny every time! :ROFLMAO:
See, more arguments about me and not about where these categories come from. Did nature invent these categories? When we look at an elephants DNA where will see the words mammal written there? 😂
False equivalence, as usual. The mammalian determination is collective, not individual.
I'm Black. I don't care how she identifies herself. There's how she chooses to identify, whether everyone else's chooses to respect it and the science behind biological and social identification. What upset a lot of people I know was the attempt to portray herself as African American. She didn't say it directly but she certainly tried to allude to it with comments about her Black father without the clarification that that wasnt her biological father but rather someone she saw as a father like figure.
Are you all Black People? Just because you didn't care about her claim to be "essentially" Black, are you quite sure no one else did? Again, my interpretation is that she began saying she was Essentially Black after her imposture was exposed. But you're still wrong that she was saying that her identification was a pretense.
 
But at the same time, you're saying, right below, that you haven't researched the other societies. So how can a relativist like you condemn them?

Again, it's the one I'm most familiar with and has the largest influence on my life. Guess what, I'm not here usually discussing European politics either because I live in America and European politics isn't at the forefront of my mind. But you pretend as hard as you need to. Emotionally. 🤣🤣🤣
You claimed to be applying your intellect to these weighty problems, but for some reason you don't want to take that soaring intellect into unfamiliar territory. Why is that? Maybe there are some relativisms you don't like?
I'm not and you cant quote me saying so. These are just more empty claims who have no evidence for but just throw out there because saying shit is about all you got. 😂
Shit is all you can write; I'm just tossing your crap back at you.
What is a fake female? How about you make that argument stick first before you shout your feelings at me about what ought to be.
That's it; defend the lawyers and the marginalized oligarchy they created.
Still baked into your claim that there's no objective difference in the sentiments of rapist and victim.
And who's idea is to treat these people as slaves? Why are you pretending you don't understand that part of my question? Is it the fragility? There there. 🤣🤣🤣
Every society that's taken slaves has its own justifications. But those are usually founded in the perception of objective gain.
By choice. They could have rights if they people choosing to treat them as slaves decided to treat them as people with rights. Why is this simple observation so difficult for you? 😂
There's no objective gain to be had in treating people you bought to be slaves as people with rights. Why do you keep tripping over your own doctrine of objectivity?
I didn't say "nuh uh" I have whole ass paragraphs of counter arguments.
Even your misreading of the NIM citation shrieked "nuh uh."
Your needs are subjective. Logic should of clued you in to that one. 😂
False logic can't clue anyone into anything.
 
I can't help it if you won't emotionally accept the objective facts but martial rape of wives, who were voting citizens by the 1970s when this country began criminalizing it, was a real thing.
I gave my reasons for not trusting your skewed interpretations of data.
Which is decribing subjective personal preference of some ruler, rulers, law makers, governing body, tribal council, or whatever you want to call whoever dictates societies rules.

It's not purely subjective if there's objective gain, any more than it's a subjective choice for a meat-eater to eat meat.
So authority and the legal systems that underpin them are dictated by force. So far everything you're saying is in support of what I've been arguing. Subjectivity.
I never denied that temporal power makes a difference. But you're the only one arguing a split between the power systems in nature and those in human society.
Again what is logical necessity? You've yet to define what that even is. You can make a case this country profited greatly in the short term and the long term from slavery and rape, if you're making the case from the perspective of the slavers. The wealth this country was able to derive off the backs of slaves turned this county into a global super power and maintaing the slave population to fuel that growth took a lot of rape. You keep trying to argue that laws against rape are logically necessary but the American Slave empire would of sputtered and stalled out without a whole lot of rape. Only about half a million slaves made it here from the trans Atlantic slave trade but nearly 4 million were here by the time we get to the civil war. That took a lot of rape. Its diminishing to call them exceptions as if these rapes dont matter but this distinction you're trying to make between citizens and slaves is meaningless because it's the law makers themselves who are deciding who's who.
Not surprised you didn't follow my argument that slavery may not have been a logical necessity, given that American society learned, within about two centuries, that the game had not been worth the candle. But none of your subjective rage alters the original context of my remarks, that nothing that happens to slaves alters the rule that every society creates rules, for its citizens, against rape and theft. In the case of slavery, the lawmakers didn't decide who was or wasn't a slave, but rather responded to the desires of citizens who thought slavery would bring them objective gain-- which it did, in the short term.

 
Benefits are subjective since they are based on personal feelings, preference and sentiments be they the sentiments of an individual or a group of individuals. For a society ruled by slavers the slavers might deem some benefit from slavery but the slaves don't and the slavers do no comprise all of society. The slaves are also part of any slaver society least you forget.
The benefits weren't subjective; that's how King Cotton was born. Person X's gain doesn't cease to exist because Person Y else gets dicked over. Where do you get all these subjective interpretations?
Your attempts to describe society itself as one singular entity rather than a collection of many individuals is not an accurate description of what society is even if it conveniently allows you to ignore the sentiments of the exploited for the sake of your argument. Why do you only see society through the lens of the exploiters and never consider the lens of the people they are exploiting?
You made the false claim that everyone was moved by subjective wants alone and I disproved that. Even you indicated that the escaping slave had objective reasons to desire freedom

No I do not but that's only further proving the subjective nature of laws. Whether their laws subjectively recognized it as rape or not, forcing yourself on someone sexually against their will is objectively what rape is. Laws can can decide that when you force yourself on your wife against her will that isnt rape and they can call whoever they want citizen and they can call other people property and slave. These are reflections of legal opinion rather than objective fact.
All of the laws you describe are based in objective gain as much or more than subjective wants. To the person making the gain, it's as objective a fact as any you can name.
For those societies? How about for you? Does a woman agreeing to marriage mean she can't be raped? And doesn't the phrase, ideal put forth by those societies, not suggest subjectivity to you? You're thinking of legal consent which, again, is subjective, as opppsed to whether the wife is objectively consenting or not to sex.
Ooh, are you Making the Argument About Me? What A Surprise!! :rolleyes:
 
Guys, you should reset with full arguments. None of us can follow this any more.

P.S. I think a heterosexual guy ought to be able to date Timothee Chalamet without having to update any profile items. Close enough. What do you say? :)
 
Feels like people have gone off topic
 
No, the only one making unfounded assumptions about what is necessary for all societies is you. I showed how you could legally rape citizens in this one. Your maybe it was more nuanced than that is weak and poorly defined. Come back when you have more clearer, definitive, counter argument.
Since even you know that slaves were not citizens, I assume this is a reference to the allegation that men could freely rape their wives. What "nuance" do you see in that adversarial position?

Nevermind you do have evidence. My counter argument is that the Easter Bunny told me that Adam was a cuck.
I was sure that a cultural argument would be lost on you, but I had to give you the benefit of the doubt.
Unlike gravity, societies are acting on the subjective intentions of its law makers. They are no objective intentions. Intentions are subjective.
You can't even deal with the fact that law makers make the majority of the laws in response to society. Sometimes it's to a small minority, sometimes to a relative majority. You're still not even framing your own mistaken position adequately, because you're so desperate to Fight the Power.
Physical laws have objective value and social laws have subjective value. Objective values can be measured, subjective values change person to person.
"Quantified" would be a better word than "measured," but close enough: you finally defined the materialist ideal of objective evidence, which no one else on the atheist thread managed to do. Of course, then you commit the error of all materialists in claiming that the measurement does not get drafted into the same War for Subjective Values as everything else. Your favoritism toward trans women is one such Subjective Value.
It is not. Bodies in space can't decide to throw the rules of physical reality out on a whim and write new ones. That equilibrium is established by objective values. Social rules can be changed, thrown out, re-written, forgotten, ignored, broken, and subverted and do not possess any power in and of themselves but are imposed through physical acts of force that people are choosing to engage in. They are in no way necessary. You can endeavor to live absolutely free of any socal rules and in a state of anarchy if you wanted to or without physically imposing yourself on others.
Your screed did help me realize that the perfect song for materialists would be Simon and Garfunkle's "I Am a Rock." I don't know why you want to be a rock, but you do you.
 
Dear Democrats, I am aware you believe that transwomen count as women. Even if not biological women, so my question is, do people having sex with a transgender "woman" count as gay, or are they straight for having sex with a woman?
You might be bi-curious, or bisexual.
 
You have not described what logical necessity is. Laws and rules can only be imposed by force and there is no logical necessity for you to force yourself on someone, just subjective desire.
But you, not I, were the one arguing that the rapist's desire to rape was no more objective than the victim's desire not to be raped. Did you forget that? I said that the difference was that society agreed that the victim's desire was based in the logical necessity of any organism to survive, and you denied that while fussing about the rape of slaves for no good reason.

What's the functional objective difference in not wanting to be raped and not wanting to eat tripe, for example? Whats particular about that other than you caring more about whether people like to be raped than you do what people like to eat? Have you been back to atheist thread to address my counter argument of this argument?
You didn't say anything there any more than you have here.
I don't understand the functional distinction you're trying to make there between the woman's desire not to be raped or eat tripe and the man's desire to rape. What in your mind is elevating a want from a subjective want to an objective want?
Again the pretense of Socratic argument. That's old too.
I just responded to 10 posts of yours the other day, excuse me if I don't immediately recognize one of your pervious arguments. There's a lot of them.

I'm the one who pointed out to you that citizen wives could be raped in the real world and you came back to me with a Bible story. Have some self awareness.
Your report was intrinsically limited by its adversarial intent.
Enslaving someone isn't a whim but rape is? What's that logic? Why doesn't it appear to make any sense? I could have objectively longer legs than you that doesnt mean I have to kick you. What does one thing have to do with the other? What kind of logic are you operating under? Why isn't it consistent? If a man is objectively stronger than a woman then your logic appears to suggest it isn't a whim when he uses his objective strength to force her into sex.
The long history of sexual dominance in many species is an objective fact of nature. How do you figure it's only subjective, if animals with no free will observe the same rules?
You can call my arguments names all you like but you can't make any of your arguments make any sense, that's the problem.
Your false dichotomy remains the antithesis of sense.
 
I should have been born 150 years ago.
 
Same difference, we're just using different words.


Exactly. They are subjective and graduated levels in a thermometer represent an objective measurement. That's my point.

Reactions and degrees are still not equivalent.
Theres just you trying to make it mean something I never intended.
No, you made an objectively wrong correlation.
Which is what exactly?
What I told you before.
Meaningful to who? What are these conceptualizations?
Look up "intersubjectivity" if you get a minute.
I recognize culture as real I just don't recognize its rules as objective. Biological imperatives suggest subjectivity, not objectivity.
Biological imperatives are as objective as gravity any old day,
I'm not saying that though. I'm questioning what you think is validating society beyond subjective sentiment.
The validation is not subjective if it has logical necessity.
 
Guys, you should reset with full arguments. None of us can follow this any more.tran

P.S. I think a heterosexual guy ought to be able to date Timothee Chalamet without having to update any profile items. Close enough. What do you say? :)
I'm considering letting Objective Guy have the last word because it takes too long refuting his knee-jerk responses with actual logic. I did try to bring trans women back into the discussion a few times but somehow the topic of slavery keeps coming up. :ROFLMAO:

Maybe I'll start a slavery thread to divert him.
 
And your pointless aversion to categories blinds you to what is being categorized. The category of monotremes is not subjective in the least; it accurately shows that the creatures in the category are exceptions to the dominant evolutionary aspects of mammals, and that disproves your overly simple view that "nature just is."
Monotremes existed before the creation of the category called mammals. They've existed longer than the name monotremes. Nothing about their biology is an exception to itself. When you observe a monotreme you won't find any exceptions in their biology. Its in your category.
Biological rules have exceptions as much as human laws; you just blink at them so that you can view physical law as "objective." Your definition failed before and it still fails.
You've yet to mention one. Your argument above was about categories. Where in nature can I observe a category?
And so the monotremes were exceptions to a rule.
Of the mammal category, which we created.
Nope, the significance of the categories was just as objective as the observations, as long as the categories represent correct observations.
I don't think you understand what objective means.
I just described one and you chose to dismiss it with a sophistic argument. If it helps-- not that I really think anything will-- egg-laying mammals are not exceptions to the mere existence of live-bearing mammals, which seems to be your misinterpretation.
Nope. Im well aware that you dont understand how to seperate observations from your feelings about them. You observe all types of creatures all over the earth. You observe some creatures that are warm blooded vertibrates with hair or fur who produce milk and this is significant enough to you to group them into a category together you call mammals. You don't observe this category. These animals arent hanging out together at a social club called He-Mammals Only Club House. They arent registered to Mammals Only Monthly. Mammal isnt a feature you observed anywhere. Fur, vertebrae, milk, these traits you observed, but mammal? Nowhere to be seen.
The former are exceptions to the PROCESS, which in this case is the nearest thing nature has to rules, by which live-bearing mammals became the dominant mammalian form.
Nature doesnt have any rules saying that any creature has to exist let alone dominate. Where are you observing that rule?
 
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