LeoVlaming
DP Veteran
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2015
- Messages
- 1,279
- Reaction score
- 357
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Conservative
Are you saying that the words of John Kerry and the Nuremburg prosecutor that the USA is guilty of war crimes is "propaganda"? Anyone can say the word "propaganda" to easily dismiss uncomfortable truths which challenge the alleged "greatness" of their country. If that's all you can come up with, then that's a shame.
On the contrary, the piece list a series of accusations of war crimes against the USA, some of which have been confirmed by John Kerry and a Nuremburg prosecutor, and none of which you have challenged. You've had some time to digest them but your only response over 2 days has been to dismiss the whole thing twice as "propaganda". The truth hurts.I am saying the whole piece you linked is nothing but baseless anti-American propaganda. Anybody who reads it can see that.
On the contrary, the piece list a series of accusations of war crimes against the USA, some of which have been confirmed by John Kerry and a Nuremburg prosecutor, and none of which you have challenged. You've had some time to digest them but your only response over 2 days has been to dismiss the whole thing twice as "propaganda". The truth hurts.
Many Americans, like many Brits past and present, like to live in a bubble where they do no wrong and anyone who highlights uncomfortable truths about their crimes is anti-American or anti-British. Part of growing up is coming to terms with the good and bad in life and that includes the good and bad of one's country's history. When a nation does this, it can say sorry for past offences, seek to make amends, and move on. When a nation doesn't do this, it continues in the same complacent way, clinging to its image of "greatness", breezing from one atrocity to the next, perhaps acknowledging the occasional "mistake" or "tactical error". On present form, I confidently expect America to repeat the mistakes of Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan for many years to come. Britain is no better.
Ok. I agree that the Philippines demonstrate "greatness" as a nation in their capacity to forgive the Japanese - and for me, you are confirming in the case of your relatives what I had already heard. If Filipinos came onto this forum and started up a thread about the "greatness" of their country, then it would still be arrogance but they would have a pretty good claim. We have a lot to learn from them.Funny you mention that. My wife is from the Philippines. Here's an example of a country that was crapped on by the Spanish for 300 years, then was subjected to a brutal suppression of a guerrilla war over a fifteen year period by the Americans. It was the site of a horrific massacre committed by American soldiers that I'd wager 99.99% of Americans living today have never heard of (The "Massacre" and the Aftermath - US History Scene). And yet my wife's father, if he harbored any grudges, sure never let me know about it. In fact, he proudly served in the Commonwealth Army in the months before the Japanese invaded his island in the Spring of 1942 and then fought as a guerrilla against the Japanese for the duration of the war. It was this wartime service that ultimately permitted him to become a U.S. citizen. One thing that I found extraordinary was he harbored no ill will against the Japanese, even though their brutality cut close to home. I suppose if he was angry with anyone it was with himself for beheading a Catholic priest with a sugarcane machete, but then that's another story.
I quoted John Kerry's exact words from the article in which he accepted that the USA had committed war crimes in the USA. His views on the whole article are not recorded.The rant you posted a link to does nothing but simply assert that every act of war by the US since World War II is a war crime. It is patent nonsense. And if you believe that John Kerry agrees with what is posted there you are an even greater fool than I thought.
I quoted John Kerry's exact words from the article in which he accepted that the USA had committed war crimes in the USA. His views on the whole article are not recorded.
So I am now possibly a "fool" who writes "nonsense"? Ad hominem stuff which again dodges the issue - getting uncomfortable is it? Shall we debate this properly and get into the definition of "war crime" and see how many of the estimated 20 million deaths caused by America in the last 50 years come within that category? Or, if you want, you can admit that the USA has committed war crimes in its recent past which have hugely dented its "greatness", and we can call it quits.
I don't know which sentence you mean but I don't accept I am "ranting". I conclude from the exchange of views on this thread that there are a good number of Americans unable or unwilling to accept the fact of their country has long engaged in wholesale killing of innocent people, for the sake of wider geopolitical aims. Such Americans prefer to live in a wonderland where they are great and good and the lives of people who they deem to be enemies are worthless. If America is ruled by such people, which it has been, then during those times, it has been a rogue state.Just your first sentence, if you care to read it, shows clearly that you are simply ranting.
I don't know which sentence you mean but I don't accept I am "ranting". I conclude from the exchange of views on this thread that there are a good number of Americans unable or unwilling to accept the fact of their country has long engaged in wholesale killing of innocent people, for the sake of wider geopolitical aims. Such Americans prefer to live in a wonderland where they are great and good and the lives of people who they deem to be enemies are worthless. If America is ruled by such people, which it has been, then during those times, it has been a rogue state.
Please explain what exactly makes a country great and how the United States exemplifies that more than every other nation.
I agree with you entirely, but... Muhammed Ali? He WAS the greatest, wasn't he?After all, what self-evidently superior being has to tell others of his superiority?
Really? All the applause from the left whenever this nation is hurt or humiliated is really just for our humility and introspection?Because a little humility and introspection go a long way, especially in a country prone to blind patriotism.
That was not my intent.
I was trying to say that War seems inherently dirty, and any involved parties almost inevitably seem to participate in a questionable action at some point.
Thus I dislike that it appears some are singling out the USA as the crowning example of a nation being involved in acts that are questionable or outright wrong - be they military or otherwise.
When other nations have had and are having similar issues.
I'm saying it all needs to be addressed.
When you're King of the Hill, it's only natural that someone with an inferiority complex wants to knock you on your ass. From my perspective, though, you don't try to defend the indefensible. For example, there can be no moral justification for the indiscriminate killing of kids with incendiaries as we did in Japan during WWII. But do I lose sleep over it? No. If there is a moral to that story it is don't place war production among civilians in so-called micro-factories. If you do, then you better be willing to assume the consequences. The Japanese have no one to blame but themselves for the hell that was rained upon them.
When you're confronted with something like ISIS ass kicking is the only solution. And I mean we need to dig up Curtis LeMay.
These words should be taken with a bucket of salt. When he was President Eisenhower fully believed in the usefulness of nuclear weapons.
If a slaughtered people doesn't demand an apology and reparation, we shouldn't breathe a sigh of relief or presume we did nothing wrong. Do you agree with me on this?
Really? All the applause from the left whenever this nation is hurt or humiliated is really just for our humility and introspection?
And where does America's humiliation take us, in the leftist's mindset?
Yeah, dig up an old war criminal.
In the first place, the whole concept of a "war criminal" is a sort of oxymoron that needs some tweaking. In one sense war itself is a crime. But then when you have a criminal who's trying to do you harm you have every right to defend yourself. Like I said, the Japanese made the decision to not separate their war production from the civilian populace, so if there's any culpability for killing civilians it rests with them.
The United States is only being hurt or humiliated by the stupidity of its own citizens. We're the only industrialized nation where we're still debating the reality of evolution or climate change. No one on the left celebrates that. We're terribly behind on equal treatment for women and gays. No one on the left celebrates that. We've become one of the worst industrialized nations for economic mobility and equity. No one on the left celebrates that. And the worst humiliation that this country suffers is how few of its citizens are actually ashamed of these things. That causes us a lot more harm. And if we could stop chanting "USA #1" long enough to see our problems, then maybe we could start to do something about them.
Anybody can justify anything. Your hero Curtis LeMay, realised that the victors in war walk, while the losers are tried and hung. He knew well that had the US lost the war, he'd have been tried.
The United States is only being hurt or humiliated by the stupidity of its own citizens. We're the only industrialized nation where we're still debating the reality of evolution or climate change. No one on the left celebrates that. We're terribly behind on equal treatment for women and gays. No one on the left celebrates that. We've become one of the worst industrialized nations for economic mobility and equity. No one on the left celebrates that. And the worst humiliation that this country suffers is how few of its citizens are actually ashamed of these things. That causes us a lot more harm. And if we could stop chanting "USA #1" long enough to see our problems, then maybe we could start to do something about them.
The U.S. has had "problems" throughout its nearly 239-year existence. That's nothing new. What's new is this sense of entitlement that the left fosters. They've taken JFK's admonition regarding service to country and turned it on its head: "Ask not what you can do for your country, but what your country can do for you."
That's a good post. I am not usually given to throwing savage accusations at America for its own sake, but when Americans crow about being the greatest, they deserve to be dragged off their pedestals and I'm prepared to be merciless on this thread to achieve that aim. The Scots do the same to us English in similar situations and we deserve no less. I know plenty of Scots among my own family and friends, and when English people are not asserting their superiority, then many Scots are willing to freely pay us some genuine compliments, as equals. When we go looking for compliments, then unsurprisingly the opposite happens.There will never be an acceptable and logical counter to the claim that any nation is the greatest country on earth - because that is simply an illogical claim which can never be proven.
Furthermore it is a claim so heavily invested in nationalistic pride that anyone so lacking in sensibility as to make it, is going to be incapable of accepting any evidence of its illegitimacy.
I have said this before, and I will say it again - there is no such animal as 'the greatest country' and there never has been. There are simply insufficient objective and universally accepted criteria by which to arrive at that judgement.
It may be claimed that Scandinavia offers the most social justice; that Germany makes the best machinery; that Australia boasts the best white-sand beaches; and so on. Many such claims are verifiable, but what do they prove other than the obvious advantages? Is it common to hear Swedes, or Germans, or Australians, claim theirs is the best country in the world? And if they did, should that be taken as self-evident?
"I am the greatest!" claims are most often evidence of an underlying sense of uncertainty, at best, and inferiority, at worst. After all, what self-evidently superior being has to tell others of his superiority? There is an old adage which says "Self-praise is no recommendation." From which one must draw the obvious inference that compliments must come from someone else.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?