Is america only great when republicans are in control of the government?

[Fishking]

I'm a registered democrat and I love my country and never thought of its ideals as evil.

Oh? So you're saying that America isn't a terribly systemically racist country that's out there just killing Black people left and right and holding them down and supporting a white supremacist system?

Hmmm?

 

[ataraxia]

Correct.

I mean, think about it...what did we have for the last 40 years or so before Trump got elected? Jobs leaving the country, stagnant wages, wars all over the place where our military was dying, China taking over all across the world. Hell, the only Americans who had it good were the political Elites and their favored businesses and Globalist organizations.

Apparently not- if you believe Donald Trump.

“I’ve been around for a long time and it just seems that the economy does better under the Democrats than the Republicans.”​

-Donald Trump in 2004

So which is it? Donald Trump is wrong or you are just being played?

 

[ataraxia]

Oh? So you're saying that America isn't a terribly systemically racist country that's out there just killing Black people left and right and holding them down and supporting a white supremacist system?

America has been great because it has had some very noble ideals, and has not been afraid to pursue them.

People with a conservative mindset always keep thinking we are already there and don't need to do anything more. They have always been a lead weight around America's ankles. Any movement towards the great ideals set by the Constitution have been in spite of our conservative friends, not because of them.

 

[Cosmik Debris]

sigh...

What part of "for the last 40 years" do you not understand?

Bye.

Don't let the door slam on your ponytail!

 

[Fishking]

America has been great because it has had some very noble ideals, and has not been afraid to pursue them.

100% agree.

People with a conservative mindset always keep thinking we are already there and don't need to do anything more. They have always been a lead weight around America's ankles. Any movement towards the great ideals set by the Constitution have been in spite of our conservative friends, not because of them.

This is factually incorrect. Most conservatives recognize there are still issues to deal with but that we've come a long way but we still are the America that you stated above.

 

[ataraxia]

Most conservatives recognize there are still issues to deal with but that we've come a long way but we still are the America that you stated above.

Not at all. We are not the America with an institutionalized system of slavery and not allowing women to vote. Hopefully we will continue to evolve and grow to more closely match the ideals laid out in the Constitution- despite all the resistance from our conservative friends, past and present, who keep thinking we are fine the way we are and any further changes are going to lead to our demise.

William T. Sedgwick believed that no good could come of letting women vote.

“It would mean a degeneration and a degradation of human fiber which would turn back the hands of time a thousand years,” Sedgwick said in 1914. “Hence it will probably never come, for mankind will not lightly abandon at the call of a few fanatics the hard-earned achievements of the ages.”

Why Men Thought Women Weren’t Made to Vote

During the suffrage movement, conventional wisdom held that civic duty was bad for the ovaries.

www.theatlantic.com

 

[Fishking]

Not at all. We are not the America with an institutionalized system of slavery and not allowing women to vote. Hopefully we will continue to evolve and grow to more closely match the ideals laid out in the Constitution

Do you understand that your POV here would put you at odds with a lot of the modern left?

 

[ataraxia]

Do you understand that your POV here would put you at odds with a lot of the modern left?

No. Please explain.

 

[Fishking]

No. Please explain.

Refer to my previous question that you originally quoted.

 

[ataraxia]

Refer to my previous question that you originally quoted.

OK. You said "Most conservatives recognize there are still issues to deal with but that we've come a long way but we still are the America that you stated above."

I showed you how we are NOT the same country, and hopefully won't be the same country we are now in the future. We can only hope.

So I am still not sure what you are getting at with "Do you understand that your POV here would put you at odds with a lot of the modern left?"

 

[Fishking]

OK. You said "Most conservatives recognize there are still issues to deal with but that we've come a long way but we still are the America that you stated above."

I showed you how we are NOT the same country, and hopefully won't be the same country we are now in the future.

So I am still not sure what you are getting at with "Do you understand that your POV here would put you at odds with a lot of the modern left?"

No...the question originally responded to, that you jumped in on to the other poster.

Oh? So you're saying that America isn't a terribly systemically racist country that's out there just killing Black people left and right and holding them down and supporting a white supremacist system?

 

[ataraxia]

"Oh? So you're saying that America isn't a terribly systemically racist country that's out there just killing Black people left and right and holding them down and supporting a white supremacist system?

America still is carrying around a powerful legacy of that system which still needs to be addressed if we are to remain loyal to the ideals of our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution. Do you disagree? Or do you think it's just peachy perfect the way it is and anything else we do going forward is going to ruin it?

 

[Fishking]

America still is carrying around a powerful legacy of that system which still needs to be addressed if we are to remain loyal to the ideals of our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution. Do you disagree? Or do you think it's just peachy perfect the way it is and anything else we do going forward is going to ruin it?

I think we were coming close but are now starting to retreat as leftist ideology is going back to race essentialist ideology which is including segregation and such. But please expound in what areas, specifically, that are the fault of current government policies that are keeping us from reaching these goals.

 

[Craig234]

This is a bit how propaganda works.

A 'fair' election is where parties stand for policies, and people pick the one they think is best.

Propaganda starts to enter when a party emphasizes and hypes areas it's stronger, and de-emphasizes areas it's weaker - so not that is IS better, but that people are giving more weight to the areas that benefit it.

The better they are at that, the more their thumb is on the scale and people get a warped view of the choices.

If they do it very effectively, it has voters wearing rose colored glasses where they support your party pretty much no matter what, and oppose the other party pretty much no matter what.

That's where trump's rhetoric is - imbecilic and obvious, but pushing this. So on November 4 election day, our country is an utter disaster because of the Democratic incumbent. Weeks later on Jan 20 the day he takes office, the country is the best in history because he's in office. It can make people get facts wrong, like saying trump did better than a Democrat on something where it's factually wrong.

And the most powerful factor behind which propaganda has the most effect, is money.

So this is where money essentially corrupts public opinion and buys and defeats democracy. It mattered less whether Bernie's policies were better, than how media had a near blackout on him an gave trump $2 billion of free coverage with his hype.

 

[ataraxia]

I think we were coming close but are now starting to retreat as leftist ideology is going back to race essentialist ideology which is including segregation and such. But please expound in what areas, specifically, that are the fault of current government policies that are keeping us from reaching these goals.

Sure.

Systemic racism and America today | Brookings

John R. Allen writes on the origin of systemic racism in the United States and the ways in which it continues to impact, and even define, American culture and society today.

www.brookings.edu

So now your turn: if you think "we are coming close", what further reforms would you be OK with to finally get there, without calling them "race essentialist ideology"?

Also, you had said my ideas would put me at odds with most leftists. Still not sure what that would be. Please explain.

 

[ralfy]

Both parties run the country using a combination of neoconservatism and neoliberalism, leading to high levels of borrowing and spending, among others:

Krugman and the Pied Pipers of Debt

Investors are celebrating an incipient “recovery,” but the interventions that were responsible for it are sowing the seeds of a more violent contraction...

seekingalpha.com

MAGA involves combinations of protectionism and nationalism, e.g., restrict immigration and free trade, and reverse military expansionism to cut down on costs.

The current admin is attempting that in part through schemes like the Inflation Reduction Act. But given a Triffin dilemma it involves only continued heavy borrowing and spending.

 

[Fishking]

Sure.

Systemic racism and America today | Brookings

John R. Allen writes on the origin of systemic racism in the United States and the ways in which it continues to impact, and even define, American culture and society today.

www.brookings.edu

Your link doesn't provide anything specific at all. It makes one allusion to what would be considered systemic racism being currently carried out in the entire link here:

"The reality of this history has been on stark display in recent weeks. From the terrible killings of George Floyd and Ahmaud Arbery,"

The problem with this narrative is that it's simply not true. It's an impression given to us by our media as white people being killed by the police just doesn't play. However, proper analysis of police interactions and crime rates among different communities shows the narrative falls flat. At best, you could say there is just a problem with policing in general. At best.

So now your turn: if you think "we are coming close", what further reforms would you be OK with to finally get there, without calling them "race essentialist ideology"?

I said "were", not are. Current leftist ideology is taking us backwards. If you break it down, and really analyze it, it looks very much like far-right fringe white supremacy with a different flavor. For example, universities discriminate against people based on skin color for admissions, with Asian Americans taking the brunt of that discrimination because, in the eyes of the left, they are over-represented. You have universities holding segregated graduations and now the NFL plays a segregated National Anthem. The list goes on and on.

Also, you had said my ideas would put me at odds with most leftists. Still not sure what that would be. Please explain.

Your statements see America as generally good and noble in it's goals and that we have improved a lot. There is a large segment on the left that believes everything my question posed to before asked about. They believe America is a terrible nation that horribly systemically racist and is full on systemic white supremacy everywhere.

 

[ataraxia]

I said "were", not are. Current leftist ideology is taking us backwards. If you break it down, and really analyze it, it looks very much like far-right fringe white supremacy with a different flavor. For example, universities discriminate against people based on skin color for admissions, with Asian Americans taking the brunt of that discrimination because, in the eyes of the left, they are over-represented. You have universities holding segregated graduations and now the NFL plays a segregated National Anthem. The list goes on and on.

If someone just got kicked in the gut on the street and people give him attention and try to help him get back on his feet, is that discriminating against the other bystanders?

Your statements see America as generally good and noble in it's goals and that we have improved a lot. There is a large segment on the left that believes everything my question posed to before asked about. They believe America is a terrible nation that horribly systemically racist and is full on systemic white supremacy everywhere.

I don't think there is any large discrepancy believing that America has great ideals, but that we still have a long ways to go to try to live up to them. Are you saying that racism in this country is negligible today and we need to just stop worrying about it?

 

[Fishking]

If someone just got kicked in the gut on the street and people give him attention and try to help him get back on his feet, is that discriminating against the other bystanders?

Did you kick the bystander in the gut to help the other person up?

I don't think there is any large discrepancy believing that America has great ideals, but that we still have a long ways to go to try to live up to them. Are you saying that racism in this country is negligible today and we need to just stop worrying about it?

Racism is mostly negligible in the sense that it's holding anyone back from accomplishing what they want.

 

[ataraxia]

Did you kick the bystander in the gut to help the other person up?

So how do you propose helping the guy laying doubled over on the sidewalk?

Racism is mostly negligible in the sense that it's holding anyone back from accomplishing what they want.

So what about that young, smart kid, born to a family with drug-addicted parents and a run down school, who spends more time trying to evade the drugs and violence where he is growing up and wondering where his next meal is coming from, than having time to study? Would you tell him society is not interested in helping him at all because we value freedom and if he fails it's just because he is stupid and lazy?

You think what happens to that kid has nothing to do with you, and will have no impacts on you?

 

[Utility Man]

 

[bongsaway]

Hmmm?

sigh...

What part of "for the last 40 years" do you not understand?

Bye.

The last forty years includes 24 years of republican presidents.

 

[Michael Cole]

This is a bit how propaganda works.

A 'fair' election is where parties stand for policies, and people pick the one they think is best.

Propaganda starts to enter when a party emphasizes and hypes areas it's stronger, and de-emphasizes areas it's weaker - so not that is IS better, but that people are giving more weight to the areas that benefit it.

The better they are at that, the more their thumb is on the scale and people get a warped view of the choices.

If they do it very effectively, it has voters wearing rose colored glasses where they support your party pretty much no matter what, and oppose the other party pretty much no matter what.

That's where trump's rhetoric is - imbecilic and obvious, but pushing this. So on November 4 election day, our country is an utter disaster because of the Democratic incumbent. Weeks later on Jan 20 the day he takes office, the country is the best in history because he's in office. It can make people get facts wrong, like saying trump did better than a Democrat on something where it's factually wrong.

And the most powerful factor behind which propaganda has the most effect, is money.

So this is where money essentially corrupts public opinion and buys and defeats democracy. It mattered less whether Bernie's policies were better, than how media had a near blackout on him an gave trump $2 billion of free coverage with his hype.

I keep seeing the assertion that propaganda "defeats" democracy. That's incorrect. First of all, propaganda predates writing. It's as old as civilization itself. Secondly - and this is key - the propaganda you keep referencing doesn't defeat democracy; it takes advantage of it. It reveals a weakness. It's something the Founders feared.

 

[bongsaway]

Oh? So you're saying that America isn't a terribly systemically racist country that's out there just killing Black people left and right and holding them down and supporting a white supremacist system?

That part is true but I didn't say it you did, so why are you trying to put those words into my mouth? Feeling guilty of your pure projection?

Why do you guys try so hard to twist what others say?

 

[bongsaway]

Sure.

Systemic racism and America today | Brookings

John R. Allen writes on the origin of systemic racism in the United States and the ways in which it continues to impact, and even define, American culture and society today.

www.brookings.edu

So now your turn: if you think "we are coming close", what further reforms would you be OK with to finally get there, without calling them "race essentialist ideology"?

Also, you had said my ideas would put me at odds with most leftists. Still not sure what that would be. Please explain.

He can't because it isn't true.