Is a normally developing ZEF alive?

[AGENT J]

I’m very confused as to why you think that.

basic english, facts and definitions, I'm confused to why its confusing

 

[MamboDervish]

The casual acceptance of abortion by a society is a sign that the society in question perceives personal comforts as a higher priority than the health and welfare of the family, the community and the nation.

This is nonsense.

 

[Josie]

basic english, facts and definitions, I'm confused to why its confusing

"Life begins" and "a new human life starts to develop" are the same thing.

 

[Lutherf]

"Life begins" and "a new human life starts to develop" are the same thing.

Come on, Josie, how long have you been doing this. J is right and you are wrong. It's like a law around here.

 

[Josie]

God is pro choice.

What's your answer to this question, Scrab?

 

[Lursa]

Who is teaching girls that their lives are LESS important than that of their unborn child? That seems to be a rather confused message.

Please read better or respond like you did. Did you consider what I wrote about the necessary rights violations in order to force women to remain pregnant against their will? The laws required to identify, track, enforce this?

It reduces women to 2nd class citizens because it would place the unborn's rights (which, it has none) ahead of women's. The courts would have to change that...since they already decided that the unborn have no rights and decided that women do. Formal SCOTUS decisions. This is unlikely to happen, but I was trying to make you see that such a thing WOULD damage women and society.

Pregnancy and motherhood make a woman's life MORE important.

That's a BS opinion and dismisses the lives of women that choose not to or cannot reproduce. It's offensive and not particularly accurate. We still need sperm.

No man can bear a child and then nurse it into health. Without that function we are lost as a species. The need to care for pregnant mothers and infants places requirements on society that makes it stronger, more cognizant of the need to sacrifice one's personal desires for the needs of the family and the community. More importantly, it teaches us that those sacrifices must be made willingly and not only due to coercion and force.

None of those things is even relevant to this conversation. I asked you what negative effects abortion has on society. You didnt list any.

There is no shortage of people. Even with LEGAL abortion, most women still choose to have a baby and abortion rates in the US go down every year. Reproduction is the strongest urge on Earth...people will not stop having kids. That's a baseless argument.

The casual acceptance of abortion by a society is a sign that the society in question perceives personal comforts as a higher priority than the health and welfare of the family, the community and the nation.

That is an incorrect and very disrespectful opinion. And it's incorrect.

Women have abortions out of need. Do you consider being able to hold onto a job so you can take care of your current dependents like older parents, other kids, disabled, etc...a convenience? Do you consider completing high school, college, trade school...a convenience? Do you consider being able to uphold the commitments and obligations you've made to your employer, church, friends, community, society...as conveniences? Yes or no?

Because a woman makes her decisions on becoming a mother based on all those factors in her life...and being a responsible person and contributor to society. Fulfilling all of those things make her MORE of an asset to society...and much less of a drain on it.

So again I ask you... what negative effects abortion has on society? Please list some or acknowledge that there arent any.

 

[AGENT J]

"Life begins" and "a new human life starts to develop" are the same thing.

no, they just simply are not, they aren't even close by any measure. not by any definition or any rule of English

"Life begins at fertilization. That is a proven biological fact."

VS

"Fertilization is the very beginning of a developing human."

are not the same, theres nothing that can make them the same

 

[Josie]

no, they just simply are not, they aren't even close by any measure. not by any definition or any rule of English

"Life begins at fertilization. That is a proven biological fact."

VS

"Fertilization is the very beginning of a developing human."

are not the same, theres nothing that can make them the same

LOL! Okay, dude. I don't see any difference at all and I'm not going to keep arguing about it.

 

[AGENT J]

LOL! Okay, dude. I don't see any difference at all and I'm not going to keep arguing about it.

well I can't help you with what you see or dont. I wish I could actually but those are factually different again based on definitions and rules of English. They arent even close.

 

[Josie]

well I can't help you with what you see or dont. I wish I could actually but those are factually different again based on definitions and rules of English. They arent even close.

You keep saying it, but you aren't explaining it.

 

[Lutherf]

Please read better or respond like you did. Did you consider what I wrote about the necessary rights violations in order to force women to remain pregnant against their will? The laws required to identify, track, enforce this?

It reduces women to 2nd class citizens because it would place the unborn's rights (which, it has none) ahead of women's. The courts would have to change that...since they already decided that the unborn have no rights and decided that women do. Formal SCOTUS decisions. This is unlikely to happen, but I was trying to make you see that such a thing WOULD damage women and society.

That's a BS opinion and dismisses the lives of women that choose not to or cannot reproduce. It's offensive and not particularly accurate. We still need sperm.


None of those things is even relevant to this conversation. I asked you what negative effects abortion has on society. You didnt list any.

There is no shortage of people. Even with LEGAL abortion, most women still choose to have a baby and abortion rates in the US go down every year. Reproduction is the strongest urge on Earth...people will not stop having kids. That's a baseless argument.

That is an incorrect and very disrespectful opinion. And it's incorrect.

Women have abortions out of need. Do you consider being able to hold onto a job so you can take care of your current dependents like older parents, other kids, disabled, etc...a convenience? Do you consider completing high school, college, trade school...a convenience? Do you consider being able to uphold the commitments and obligations you've made to your employer, church, friends, community, society...as conveniences? Yes or no?

Because a woman makes her decisions on becoming a mother based on all those factors in her life...and being a responsible person and contributor to society. Fulfilling all of those things make her MORE of an asset to society...and much less of a drain on it.

So again I ask you... what negative effects abortion has on society? Please list some or acknowledge that there arent any.

That's a lot of blather!!!

Pregnancy does not reduce a woman to a lower class of citizen. Lots and lots of pregnant women manage to juggle work, family and their pregnancy. Lots of single mothers manage to do that! I say that pregnancy increases the importance of a woman and you say it makes her a second class citizen. Which of us is is being degrading toward women?

 

[Lursa]

Please read better or respond like you did. Did you consider what I wrote about the necessary rights violations in order to force women to remain pregnant against their will? The laws required to identify, track, enforce this?

It reduces women to 2nd class citizens because it would place the unborn's rights (which, it has none) ahead of women's. The courts would have to change that...since they already decided that the unborn have no rights and decided that women do. Formal SCOTUS decisions. This is unlikely to happen, but I was trying to make you see that such a thing WOULD damage women and society.

That's a BS opinion and dismisses the lives of women that choose not to or cannot reproduce. It's offensive and not particularly accurate. We still need sperm.


None of those things is even relevant to this conversation. I asked you what negative effects abortion has on society. You didnt list any.

There is no shortage of people. Even with LEGAL abortion, most women still choose to have a baby and abortion rates in the US go down every year. Reproduction is the strongest urge on Earth...people will not stop having kids. That's a baseless argument.

That is an incorrect and very disrespectful opinion.

Women have abortions out of need. Do you consider being able to hold onto a job so you can take care of your current dependents like older parents, other kids, disabled, etc...a convenience? Do you consider completing high school, college, trade school...a convenience? Do you consider being able to uphold the commitments and obligations you've made to your employer, church, friends, community, society...as conveniences? Yes or no?

Because a woman makes her decisions on becoming a mother based on all those factors in her life...and being a responsible person and contributor to society. Fulfilling all of those things make her MORE of an asset to society...and much less of a drain on it.

So again I ask you... what negative effects abortion has on society? Please list some or acknowledge that there arent any.

That's a lot of blather!!!

Pregnancy does not reduce a woman to a lower class of citizen. Lots and lots of pregnant women manage to juggle work, family and their pregnancy. Lots of single mothers manage to do that! I say that pregnancy increases the importance of a woman and you say it makes her a second class citizen. Which of us is is being degrading toward women?

I notice you could not answer my direct questions...directly.

Women CHOOSE to make those sacrifices in their lives and they are sacrifices and do affect their futures and their ability to take care of their family responsibilities and contributions to society. That's a fact...not 'blather.'

Now, why not answer the questions I asked you? I bolded them for you this time. Is it that honest answers would show that your position on abortion is based mostly on religion and misogyny? Your minimization of women's lives and roles in society (except as breeders) has been demonstrated pretty well so far.

 

[Lutherf]

I notice you could not answer my direct questions...directly.

Women CHOOSE to make those sacrifices in their lives and they are sacrifices and do affect their futures and their ability to take care of their family responsibilities and contributions to society. That's a fact...not 'blather.'

Now, why not answer the questions I asked you? I bolded them for you this time. Is it that honest answers would show that your position on abortion is based mostly on religion and misogyny? Your minimization of women's lives and roles in society (except as breeders) has been demonstrated pretty well so far.

So you're saying that they choose to become 2nd class citizens? I mean, I could SWEAR that's what you laid out. I think your comment was something to the effect of "It reduces women to 2nd class citizens because it would place the unborn's rights (which, it has none) ahead of women's." and that sure comes across as you believing that society sees pregnant women as second class citizens.

 

[Lursa]

Please read better or respond like you did. Did you consider what I wrote about the necessary rights violations in order to force women to remain pregnant against their will? The laws required to identify, track, enforce this?

It reduces women to 2nd class citizens because it would place the unborn's rights (which, it has none) ahead of women's. The courts would have to change that...since they already decided that the unborn have no rights and decided that women do. Formal SCOTUS decisions. This is unlikely to happen, but I was trying to make you see that such a thing WOULD damage women and society.

That's a BS opinion and dismisses the lives of women that choose not to or cannot reproduce. It's offensive and not particularly accurate. We still need sperm.


None of those things is even relevant to this conversation. I asked you what negative effects abortion has on society. You didnt list any.

There is no shortage of people. Even with LEGAL abortion, most women still choose to have a baby and abortion rates in the US go down every year. Reproduction is the strongest urge on Earth...people will not stop having kids. That's a baseless argument.

That is an incorrect and very disrespectful opinion. And it's incorrect.

Women have abortions out of need. Do you consider being able to hold onto a job so you can take care of your current dependents like older parents, other kids, disabled, etc...a convenience? Do you consider completing high school, college, trade school...a convenience? Do you consider being able to uphold the commitments and obligations you've made to your employer, church, friends, community, society...as conveniences? Yes or no?

Because a woman makes her decisions on becoming a mother based on all those factors in her life...and being a responsible person and contributor to society. Fulfilling all of those things make her MORE of an asset to society...and much less of a drain on it.

So again I ask you... what negative effects abortion has on society? Please list some or acknowledge that there arent any.

So you're saying that they choose to become 2nd class citizens? I mean, I could SWEAR that's what you laid out. I think your comment was something to the effect of "It reduces women to 2nd class citizens because it would place the unborn's rights (which, it has none) ahead of women's." and that sure comes across as you believing that society sees pregnant women as second class citizens.

The legal process and enforcement of the laws would violate women's COnst rights, many of them and I named some. THAT is what would make us less than equal to men and would elevate the unborn's rights above ours (since their rights would supersede ours.) Of course, the unborn have no rights and I wrote that....did you not read???

ONe of my questions was can the born and unborn be treated equally under the law? I said it's not possible...if you disagree, please explain, using a legal basis for the argument, as I have. If the govt were to somehow recognize rights for the unborn, they would directly conflict with women's.

 

[Lutherf]

The legal process and enforcement of the laws would violate women's COnst rights, many of them and I named some. THAT is what would make us less than equal to men and would elevate the unborn's rights above ours (since their rights would supersede ours.) Of course, the unborn have no rights and I wrote that....did you not read???

ONe of my questions was can the born and unborn be treated equally under the law? I said it's not possible...if you disagree, please explain, using a legal basis for the argument, as I have. If the govt were to somehow recognize rights for the unborn, they would directly conflict with women's.

See, now you're blathering on about stuff I didn't say. At no point in this thread or any other have I said that making abortion illegal would be a good idea. We had that situation for a long time in this country and it didn't prevent abortion any more than making certain drugs illegal prevented drug abuse. My take on abortion in this thread IS NOT a legal one. It's a moral one.

 

[AGENT J]

You keep saying it, but you aren't explaining it.

actually, I did multiple times. Its based off of basic english, facts, common sense and definitions like i said I'm confused why it would be confusing to anybody.
I cant magically make you understand this fact . .


here's the two statements that are not the same

"Life begins at fertilization. That is a proven biological fact."

VS

"Fertilization is the very beginning of a developing human."

Ill requote my post from before about the first statement "I pointed out is too general, just says "life", and "starts" and claims it to be a fact" that's not accurate and not what the other sentences says. Your statement doesn't even mention life LOL

there's nothing that can be posted to make them the same.

 

[Lursa]

See, now you're blathering on about stuff I didn't say. At no point in this thread or any other have I said that making abortion illegal would be a good idea. We had that situation for a long time in this country and it didn't prevent abortion any more than making certain drugs illegal prevented drug abuse. My take on abortion in this thread IS NOT a legal one. It's a moral one.

The arguments I made are moral as well. You were unable to show any negative effects of abortion on society. I'd still be happy to see your list if you disagree. Do you?

And at its most basic, where you were judging women re: convenience...NONE of what I wrote was about the law and it was all about responsibility, commitments, obligations. You refused to answer that as well. IMO, the higher moral ground is to prioritize take care of the lives you are already responsible for, and in upholding commitments and obligations. YOU reduced all these things in a woman's life to 'conveniences,' or at least never acknowldeged otherwise once I pointed it out. That's very disrespectful of women's lives. Please address those questions.

 

[Josie]

actually, I did multiple times. Its based off of basic english, facts, common sense and definitions like i said I'm confused why it would be confusing to anybody.
I cant magically make you understand this fact . .


here's the two statements that are not the same

"Life begins at fertilization. That is a proven biological fact."

VS

"Fertilization is the very beginning of a developing human."

Ill requote my post from before about the first statement "I pointed out is too general, just says "life", and "starts" and claims it to be a fact" that's not accurate and not what the other sentences says. Your statement doesn't even mention life LOL

there's nothing that can be posted to make them the same.

Mmmkay, this will be my last comment on this topic because we're beating a dead horse.

A developing human IS life. It's a living human organism, therefore, life. "Life begins at fertilization" and "fertilization is the very beginning of a developing human" are exactly the same statement.

 

[MamboDervish]

Pregnancy does not reduce a woman to a lower class of citizen.

Pregnancy against her will certainly DOES!

 

[Lutherf]

Pregnancy against her will certainly DOES!

No, it doesn't. If a woman is raped that does not make her a lower class citizen and pregnancy due to rape, likewise, does not make her a lower class citizen.

 

[Lursa]

No, it doesn't. If a woman is raped that does not make her a lower class citizen and pregnancy due to rape, likewise, does not make her a lower class citizen.

Yes, the government forcing a woman to remain pregnant against her will is unconstitutional. It would require the end to recognizing many of our rights, such as due process, personal liberty, and bodily autonomy. The GOVT doing so would indeed reduce our status to no longer being equal to men.

 

[Lutherf]

Yes, the government forcing a woman to remain pregnant against her will is unconstitutional. It would require the end to recognizing many of our rights, such as due process, personal liberty, and bodily autonomy. The GOVT doing so would indeed reduce our status to no longer being equal to men.

If you're arguing that the government has no business supporting or denying abortion then we are in agreement but that's a legal discussion, not a moral one.

 

[MamboDervish]

No, it doesn't. If a woman is raped that does not make her a lower class citizen and pregnancy due to rape, likewise, does not make her a lower class citizen.

If she has no autonomy over her own reproductive system, she certainly is a lower class.

 

[Lursa]

If you're arguing that the government has no business supporting or denying abortion then we are in agreement but that's a legal discussion, not a moral one.

You were the one talking about a woman's legal status in the US...that's a legal discusssion. But I do agree that the govt shouldnt be involved at all.

 

[Lutherf]

If she has no autonomy over her own reproductive system, she certainly is a lower class.

You seem to be arguing against something I have not suggested but even at that, your idea that a woman would be "second class" because of either rape or pregnancy belies a vision of society that is entirely inconsistent with principles of individual liberty.