• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Iraqi Elections. First Victory?

GarzaUK

That European Guy
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 28, 2005
Messages
3,682
Reaction score
625
Location
Belfast, Northern Ireland
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Was the Iraqi elections a victory in the war on terror? Well yes... and no.

A morale victory over terrorism in Iraq would probably more accurate. Bush needed this bad - think what other victory has been gained in Iraq other then the brave Iraqis voting?

Bush needed this to validate is reasons for going to war to the growing sceptical American people, screw the WMD's, screw the unproven Saddam-Bin Laden link, the blood of Americans was spilt in good cause - for the freedom of Iraqis. Bush has scored a propaganda victory at home and over terrorists.

Great! Everything will now fall into place, right? Wrong.

Let's look at this from the Sunni POV. They had power, now they don't and even more so they are hardly represented (as like some Westerners they didn't bother voting). To put it bluntly, the Sunnis are pissed off. And when people get pissed off, they fight. Expect a rise in insurgents.

Iraq is now argubly a democratic country, hurray! But we should all agree (except our anarchists out there) is that democracy needs stabilty, pure and simple - the one thing America and Britain cannot seem to do.

We are caught in a rock and hard place. If we stay, more Iraqis will get pissed and join the insurgency, if we go Iraqi Democracy will crumble along with Bush's reputation. My prediction? Expect us to be there in 4 years.

Did Bush get his first victory? Propaganda - yes, real - no. The elections are only the start, for Iraq to function it needs security. Can the US and UK provide it?

I leave with a link that I found quite interesting, enjoy. :rolleyes:
http://truthout.org/docs_2005/013105W.shtml
 

pwo

Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2004
Messages
205
Reaction score
1
Location
Illinois
What the hell do you know about Bush propaganda? You live in the freakin' UK. Guess what, the media over here is liberal. Most republicans and Democrats saw the election and made up there own minds that it was a victory. No one told them that. As for first victory, it's not. What about the taliban-gone, Al Queda training grounds-gone, most of the top members of Al Queda-dead, or Osama-on the run. I think the election was a major victory. Probally the fifth. I do agree that we will have major forces there for four more years, though.
 

GarzaUK

That European Guy
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 28, 2005
Messages
3,682
Reaction score
625
Location
Belfast, Northern Ireland
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
pwo said:
What the hell do you know about Bush propaganda? You live in the freakin' UK. Guess what, the media over here is liberal.
Well we do get Fox News - as an option if we want to take in some Republican views. I know alot about your country than some Americans I think, I know that Canada is on the North and Mexico the south of you for example lol :lamo . I also can name at least 42 of ur states out of 50. Anyway I know more about your country than you know about my country.

The Iraqi elections were a victory in the short term, not the long term. Like I said Iraq has only took it's first step towards democracy. Elections alone do not make a democratic state

God if only had the education about the world outside your borders (its not your fault) like most countries do, you would see why the world is against the US. And you would understand the way the world works.

I really cannot talk to you Republicans, you are so blindly loyal and stubborn that you are not willing to listen to anyone you pushes the truth in your face. I lament these times in human history :-(
 

USNavyman

New member
Joined
Feb 15, 2005
Messages
7
Reaction score
0
GarzaUK said:
Well we do get Fox News - as an option if we want to take in some Republican views. I know alot about your country than some Americans I think, I know that Canada is on the North and Mexico the south of you for example lol :lamo . I also can name at least 42 of ur states out of 50. Anyway I know more about your country than you know about my country.

The Iraqi elections were a victory in the short term, not the long term. Like I said Iraq has only took it's first step towards democracy. Elections alone do not make a democratic state

God if only had the education about the world outside your borders (its not your fault) like most countries do, you would see why the world is against the US. And you would understand the way the world works.

I really cannot talk to you Republicans, you are so blindly loyal and stubborn that you are not willing to listen to anyone you pushes the truth in your face. I lament these times in human history :-(
Truth? Such is subjective. You view the truth filtered through the lense of your bias, a bias inspired by the likes of Minh, Stalin, Lenin, Marx, and their ilk.

The elections were a victory in all-aspects. It is amazing that liberals are so opposed to the concept of democracy, yet so supportive of the Arab version of the KKK in the form of Sunni nationalists. Yes, the insurgency is derived mostly of Sunnis, both foreign and domestic, who's single goal is to retain the Sunni hegemony. The loss of power, the loss of priviledge, the loss of the enslavement of the Shiite and the Kurds, all drive the insurgency. Yet people such as you would paint the insurgency as noble, freedom-fighters they are not. It would be better to paint and more honest to paint the insurgency for what it is, Sunni Salafi nationalists seeking to enslave their fellow Iraqis. Amend that, you are not true liberals, at least in the classical fashion. Nihilists, Marxists, Stalinists, whatever you want to call yourself, but you are not true liberals.

The world is hardly against the US, and I have been to quite a few lands. The arrogance of presumption that comes from your small vocal minority is often astounding.
 

GarzaUK

That European Guy
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 28, 2005
Messages
3,682
Reaction score
625
Location
Belfast, Northern Ireland
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
USNavyman said:
The world is hardly against the US, and I have been to quite a few lands. The arrogance of presumption that comes from your small vocal minority is often astounding.
Small Vocal Minority? You mean the UK? Europe? The World? (I'm from the UK by the way)

I know the world is against the US, because I look at facts and figures. The UK's support for the war and its outlook on the Bush administration has changed the most in the world. 64% supported the war, now since no WMD's, shifty intelligence from Blair etc, it is down to 29%.

Since you say your are a man who knows the world, you should know the BBC, here's a little reading for you. I'm sorry but the world doens't like the US at the current time.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4185205.stm
 

anomaly

Anti-Capitalist
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 20, 2005
Messages
1,020
Reaction score
6
Location
IN
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
USNavyman said:
Truth? Such is subjective. You view the truth filtered through the lense of your bias, a bias inspired by the likes of Minh, Stalin, Lenin, Marx, and their ilk.
Please, never mention the name 'Stalin' with the likes of Marx and Lenin. Marx and Lenin were great men who wanted something better. Stalin was a frightened dictator who betrayed the revolution. But to comment on your assersion, I would rather believe in 'Marxist' truth than truth inspired by the likes of Ayn Rand, Ronald Reagan, and Margaret Thatcher.
 

USNavyman

New member
Joined
Feb 15, 2005
Messages
7
Reaction score
0
GarzaUK said:
Small Vocal Minority? You mean the UK? Europe? The World? (I'm from the UK by the way)

I know the world is against the US, because I look at facts and figures. The UK's support for the war and its outlook on the Bush administration has changed the most in the world. 64% supported the war, now since no WMD's, shifty intelligence from Blair etc, it is down to 29%.

Since you say your are a man who knows the world, you should know the BBC, here's a little reading for you. I'm sorry but the world doens't like the US at the current time.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4185205.stm
A poll which focus' mostly on mostly western European nations ruled by nanny-states and goverments that are ruled by authoritarian Muslim goverments (or in Lebanon's case, by Syrian puppets), forms of goverment that have robbed their people of any backbone whatsoever.

As it is, hate to break it to you, Europe does not equal the world. If you want to go by numbers, southeast Asia (an area to which I have travelled extensively during my service) is far larger in population then Europe and is far more pro-US then Europe, as your poll shows. Europe has festered with anti-Americanism for decades now, your poll would have been the same back in the 90s, 80s, and 70s as well.

You are exactly as I said, a small vocal minority in terms of world opinion. Though I find the arrogance in assuming you speak for the world to be amusing in a 'look at the idiot' sort of way.
 

anomaly

Anti-Capitalist
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 20, 2005
Messages
1,020
Reaction score
6
Location
IN
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
USNavyman said:
A poll which focus' mostly on mostly western European nations ruled by nanny-states and goverments that are ruled by authoritarian Muslim goverments (or in Lebanon's case, by Syrian puppets), forms of goverment that have robbed their people of any backbone whatsoever.

As it is, hate to break it to you, Europe does not equal the world. If you want to go by numbers, southeast Asia (an area to which I have travelled extensively during my service) is far larger in population then Europe and is far more pro-US then Europe, as your poll shows. Europe has festered with anti-Americanism for decades now, your poll would have been the same back in the 90s, 80s, and 70s as well.

You are exactly as I said, a small vocal minority in terms of world opinion. Though I find the arrogance in assuming you speak for the world to be amusing in a 'look at the idiot' sort of way.
I hate to say it (no wait-I love saying it!!) but you're wrong and Garza's right. The poll shows that 2 countries are pro US in Asia, coupled with 2 anti-US in Indonesia and Turkey. So Asia, not including most countries (if you wanna talk population), is 1/2 pro USA. This is hardly staggering. 16 out of 21 countries (and tell me, you say the poll doesn't represent the world, so what other countries would vote in favor of the USA, because I can think of a ton that would vote anti) said Bush's reelection was bad, so it seems Garza is right in asserting that the majority of the world is anti-USA (or atleast anti-Bush, who currently represents the USA). Your defense is weak, Mr. Navyman. Look at the idiot indeed.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom