Iran 'digging 320,000 graves for invaders'

[Lerxst]

Im just repeating excatly what the ex-Navy Seal said it could do. He knows better than me.

A dude with a scuba and 10 of these definately could It injects basically a lance that can travel a crazy ass distance straight through. Im sure there is some spot on the boat where if you put a lance of molten copper through it the ship would have to stop for repiars.

Maybe if you put a half dozen of them on the ships propeller or shaft while it was in port you could cause it some trouble...but you aren't gong to sink it. How is a country like Iran going to get a diver next to a maneuvering warship in the open seas or even in those lanes?

It's a moot point, the guy may have been a Navy Seal, but he never said that thing could sink a warship. Cause some trouble? Sure, but sink it or bring it to a stop, I doubt it. It's very unrealistic to think someone could plant one on an a combat ready warship at sea let alone a dozen.

I suppose a Navy Seal could cause some hate and discontent on smaller patrol vessels.

 

[Gladiator]

2001, or therabouts, Iranian missle information





Name------------Range (km)-------Warhead (kg)
Mushak-90--------90-----------------150
Mushak-120------130--------------------
Mushak-160------160--------------------
Mushak-200------150--------------------
Zelzal-2---------100-125----------------
Shahin-2----------20----------------180
Fatch-110-------168.95-----------------
Iran-700----------700-------------------

Short range missiles - Iran Defence Forum

"Now, how does a comparatively backward country like Iran, certainly having nothing resembling either the wealth or the technical virtuosity of the United States, try to fight such a fleet? Talk to candid naval officers (I have) and they will tell you that their nightmare is a swarm of supersonic, stealthy cruise missiles, especially if fired at short range. The Russian Sunburn missile is most mentioned today, though there are others.

A well-designed missile can skim over the sea at very low altitude, at supersonic speeds, with intelligent guidance on board to choose its target. They are intended specifically to attack an advanced naval force. The Sunburn represents Russia's recognition that nobody can match the U.S. Navy ship for ship, but any country can buy cruise missiles.

In the kind of open-ocean war for which the Navy is really intended, the carrier's aircraft could try to destroy an enemy before it got close enough to launch such missiles. In the Persian Gulf, ships necessarily are so close to land that reaction time would be very short. Much would depend on the Navy's knowing where the missiles were and destroying them before they could be launched — which is very iffy. "


Washington Times - Missiles could cripple Navy

Technology sharing occured in the late 90's between Russia and the US on Krypton, the Russian small scale version of the Sideburn. The Sideburn is intended to defeat the Aegis ship defense systems.

How U.S. Helped Russia Improve Deadly Missiles



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[Gladiator]

Strait of Hormuz map of the depths of hte channels.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/iran_strait_of_hormuz_2004.jpg

Maps showing mantainous regions in Iran near the Prsian Gulf and Strait of Hormuz.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/iran_rel_1973.jpg

2001 Map.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/iran_rel_2001.jpg

Satelite image of Iran

Iran Map - Iran Satellite Image - Physical - Political


Bandar-e Abbas
Terrain:
rugged, mountainous rim; high, central basin with deserts, mountains; small,

discontinuous plains along both coasts

CIA WORLD FACTBOOK 1995 via the Libraries of the University of Missouri-St. Louis (Raleigh Muns)


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[Gladiator]

Here are some photos of mountains in Southern Iran, near the Strait of Hormuz

Iran


Zagros Mountain Range, from Iraq, to the city of Bandar-e Abbas, across from Strait of Hormuz

Map of Zagros Mountains (mountain range), Asia - World Atlas - MSN Encarta


Names of Mountains near the Strait of Hormuz and Bandar-e Abbas.

Web browser and Live Maps are incompatible


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[Gladiator]

Info on Lar Mountain near the Strait of Hormuz.

GSI.IR - Related sites - Shiraz Branch - Report of Lar -

 

[Lerxst]

It will certainly be a hard fight, that is for sure. That terrain is very problematic. However, "swarms of supersonic missiles" seems a bit uncharacteristic for Iran's capability.

How many missiles does Iran have and what type of launch platforms are they on? Everybody talks about how hard it was to get the SCUD launchers back in Desert Storm, again...we are talking 17 plus years ago. I'm not saying that finding mobile launchers will be easy, but we are a hell of a lot better at it now than we were then.

Think "counter battery fire." Those launchers will have to go hot, paint, and lock their targets with their radar. Against an active defense screen that is looking for this threat those launchers will suffer losses. Our AEGIS systems can track artillery shells! A cruise missile is slower and larger than an artillery shell. We will have aircraft in the air round the clock looking for radar signatures and evidence of launches. HARM missiles are no joke and they can be used against SSM launchers. Further the AEGIS systems utilizing their Standard Missiles have successfully engaged and shot down cruise missile and ballistic missiles simultaneously.

I also read a bit more on the Rolling Airframe Missile system, now being called the SeaRAM. It's being deployed on our cruisers now as well. Raytheon is claiming 95% success against high performance cruise missiles (mach 2 plus speed, highly maneuverable, sea skimming cruise missiles) in over 180 tests.

Iran's military is simply unimpressive to the educated eye. Their air force is almost toothless with the majority of aircraft being without parts or weapons (most are American made and were procured during the Shah's reign), the vast majority of their tanks are older, many probably aren't battle ready. Their artillery systems are fairly impressive based upon their numbers, but so was Saddam's.

 

[Gladiator]

It will certainly be a hard fight, that is for sure. That terrain is very problematic.

Elevation map of Iran

Map no. 58 | Iran Elevation Map | AskAsia.org


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[Lerxst]

I still have not found any information on the launch platform the Iranian's are utilizing for the Sunburn. It was mainly used on ship board and airborne platforms.

Does anyone have any info on this thing being launched from a truck?

 

[Gladiator]

I still have not found any information on the launch platform the Iranian's are utilizing for the Sunburn. It was mainly used on ship board and airborne platforms.

Does anyone have any info on this thing being launched from a truck?

"The Russian missile type deployed in Syria and Iran is the P270 Moskit [Mosquito], known in NATO circles as the SS-N-22 "Sunburn", once described by Rep. Dana Rohrabacher as "the most dangerous anti-ship missile in the Russian, and now the Chinese, fleet.
The ship borne version of this missile is launched from deck mounted quad tubes, but since Rohrabacher made his comments, Russia has adapted the Sunburn for submerged launch from
submarines, air launch from Sukhoi 27s, and single surface launch from modified 40’ flatbed trucks.
Nowadays, western defense experts unambiguously view all versions of Sunburn as the most dangerous missiles in the world."

A FINAL WORD ON IRAN.

Russia Ready to Vaporize the Jewish State And then kick America out of the Eastern Hemisphere



Iran can most probably shut down the Strait of Hormuz, if they want to, regardless of US Military might. The only reason Iran does not close the Strait Hormuz is because they would lose too many firends, who need oil.

The US may be better off trying to keep the good will of its allies, instead of kidnapping foreigners, and keeping unregistered prisoners.


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[Lerxst]

"The Russian missile type deployed in Syria and Iran is the P270 Moskit [Mosquito], known in NATO circles as the SS-N-22 "Sunburn", once described by Rep. Dana Rohrabacher as "the most dangerous anti-ship missile in the Russian, and now the Chinese, fleet.
The ship borne version of this missile is launched from deck mounted quad tubes, but since Rohrabacher made his comments, Russia has adapted the Sunburn for submerged launch from
submarines, air launch from Sukhoi 27s, and single surface launch from modified 40’ flatbed trucks.
Nowadays, western defense experts unambiguously view all versions of Sunburn as the most dangerous missiles in the world."

A FINAL WORD ON IRAN.

Russia Ready to Vaporize the Jewish State And then kick America out of the Eastern Hemisphere



Iran can most probably shut down the Strait of Hormuz, if they want to, regardless of US Military might. The only reason Iran does not close the Strait Hormuz is because they would lose too many firends, who need oil.

The US may be better off trying to keep the good will of its allies, instead of kidnapping foreigners, and keeping unregistered prisoners.


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Thanks for the articles, but I must say they are absolutely ludicrous. Russia ready to vaporize Israel? Right. And all the talk regarding Hezbollah easily defeating the Merkava tank...Israel only lost five Merkavas in the whole fight, several were damaged but were not destroyed. I also like the way some like to keep claiming that Hezbollah defeated the Israeli military. Last time I check the casualty figures it was like 5-1 or better in favor of Israel. The clamoring of how well equipped and determined Hezbollah was yet Israel pushed deep into Lebanon forced Hezbollah to fight harassing actions. Hezbollah got their ass handed to them. Had Israel not done such great damage to the civilian infrastructure and caused such an international outcry they would probably have pushed much farther and decimated Hezbollah.

 

[Gladiator]

Thanks for the articles, but I must say they are absolutely ludicrous. Russia ready to vaporize Israel? Right. And all the talk regarding Hezbollah easily defeating the Merkava tank...Israel only lost five Merkavas in the whole fight, several were damaged but were not destroyed. I also like the way some like to keep claiming that Hezbollah defeated the Israeli military. Last time I check the casualty figures it was like 5-1 or better in favor of Israel. The clamoring of how well equipped and determined Hezbollah was yet Israel pushed deep into Lebanon forced Hezbollah to fight harassing actions. Hezbollah got their ass handed to them. Had Israel not done such great damage to the civilian infrastructure and caused such an international outcry they would probably have pushed much farther and decimated Hezbollah.

I do not vouch for the accuracy of all details and opinions expressed in the articles I cited. I quoted the parts I found useful, which was a small percentage of the articles. If I had found a source that was more reliable for the 40 foot truck Sunburn Launchers, I would have used a more reliable source.

It happens more than occasionally that I find info to make a point, in an article that is full of other points, that run contrary to my main ideas.

I did leave out one quote from another Forum, that seemed even less reliable than the articles I did cite.

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[Gladiator]

Thanks for the articles, but I must say they are absolutely ludicrous. Russia ready to vaporize Israel? .

Check out:

Scorpion Down - Sunk by the Soviets, Buried by the Pentagon: The Untold Story of the USS Scorpion ~ Ed Offley / Basic Books / 2007 / 482 pp.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/history/22885-uss-scorpion.html






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[WI Crippler]

I might make a suggestion, in the effort of fair play here Gladiator. You have gone to lengths to describe and inform us about Iranian capabilities, especially pertaining to the Strait. Have you, or would you care to devote a similar amount of time researching the capability of the US Naval fleet and the weapons, tactics, intelligence gathering, and manpower available to them?

You've only shown one side of the theoretical battle here, and while it is certainley informative, the battle is incomplete without a similarly thorough description of our capabilites.

 

[Lerxst]

I might make a suggestion, in the effort of fair play here Gladiator. You have gone to lengths to describe and inform us about Iranian capabilities, especially pertaining to the Strait. Have you, or would you care to devote a similar amount of time researching the capability of the US Naval fleet and the weapons, tactics, intelligence gathering, and manpower available to them?

You've only shown one side of the theoretical battle here, and while it is certainley informative, the battle is incomplete without a similarly thorough description of our capabilites.

i sR0+ uf alR3ddI dO d@t lololololololololololololol mairoflnifegoseslicesliceslicesliceslice

 

[Lerxst]

I do not vouch for the accuracy of all details and opinions expressed in the articles I cited. I quoted the parts I found useful, which was a small percentage of the articles. If I had found a source that was more reliable for the 40 foot truck Sunburn Launchers, I would have used a more reliable source.

It happens more than occasionally that I find info to make a point, in an article that is full of other points, that run contrary to my main ideas.

I did leave out one quote from another Forum, that seemed even less reliable than the articles I did cite.

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I fully understand and I'll give you a break on that. I asked a question and you did the best you could to answer it. I should have been clearer in my statements. I wasn't trying to say the opinions in those articles were yours, I was just commenting out loud I suppose. Peace.

 

[Lerxst]

For the record I believe the Iranians could temporarily block the Straits of Hormuz, but make no mistake, we would deal with the threat and clear the sea lanes. It would just take some time. They would not be able to continuously maintain an area denial campaign.

 

[Gladiator]

I might make a suggestion, in the effort of fair play here Gladiator. You have gone to lengths to describe and inform us about Iranian capabilities, especially pertaining to the Strait. Have you, or would you care to devote a similar amount of time researching the capability of the US Naval fleet and the weapons, tactics, intelligence gathering, and manpower available to them?

You've only shown one side of the theoretical battle here, and while it is certainley informative, the battle is incomplete without a similarly thorough description of our capabilites.

The US capabilities are fairly well known. I have been trying to understand the leverage Iran has over the West.

One of the strengths that the US has had in the past, is a sense of fair play. For instance, generous tratement of prisoners of War. I think that avoiding the temptation to shortcut good conduct, enhances the strength of world leadership which the US has enjoyed, to a fairly high degree. The example of good conduct, is a capability, which avoids the worst a country or organization is capable of performing.

The forebearance, by adversaries, on the most dastardly acts, is a legitimate objective of War. Today, small groups can create significant harm to a large number of people. Bin Laden made his point, and got the attention from 9-11. Bin Laden could do more dastardly acts, but Bin Laden is largely backed off.

The important power of the US, is to be Big.


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[Tashah]

A few points...

Russia ready to vaporize Israel? I highly doubt it. The Kremlin is very aware that Israeli nuclear-tipped Jericho missiles can reach Moscow.

Scorpion Down - Ed Offley
I've read the book. Much to my surprise, Offley's story was fairly well debunked by a DP member with naval/submarine experience. I believe you can peruse this debunking in the Book Review thread or the Book Nook forum?

Hizb'Allah and Lebanon suffered a nasty beating. I know this. I was there.

 

[Tashah]

bwt... the title of this thread begs a simple question...

Since no preemptive attack on Iranian nuclear facilities would feature a ground invasion, precisely who do the Iranians intend to inter in those 320,000 open graves?

 

[UtahBill]

bwt... the title of this thread begs a simple question...

Since no preemptive attack on Iranian nuclear facilities would feature a ground invasion, precisely who do the Iranians intend to inter in those 320,000 open graves?

Iranians.....who else? I say that based on past wars that they have been involved in....
I wonder if they still have plastic keys to heaven and wooden rifles to hand out to their children. I don't know if it is true, but supposedly the Iranians did that when they were fighting Iraq.
My bet is that if we HAD to fight Iran, it would be a hit and run war. Bomb them until their infrastructure matches the era of their culture (circa 1400) and then stand back and allow them to clean up and start over, but this time, hopefully, without radical clerics in charge.
And as for the guy who debunked Scorpion Down, that might have been me.

 

[Tashah]

And as for the guy who debunked Scorpion Down, that might have been me.

Voila! I believe it was you Bill. You certainly punched a lot of holes in that particular story.

 

[UtahBill]

Voila! I believe it was you Bill. You certainly punched a lot of holes in that particular story.

I can recommend a submarine book for DP members, as soon as I remember the name of it. I read it last month and I will vouch for it, as well as I can, given that most of us only know, at the time, what they think we need to know. Neighbor loaned it to me, and since it isn't here in front of my face, I cannot remember the title...but I believe it is "Blind Man's Bluff"...

 

[dirtpoorchris]

Iranians.....who else? I say that based on past wars that they have been involved in....
I wonder if they still have plastic keys to heaven and wooden rifles to hand out to their children. I don't know if it is true, but supposedly the Iranians did that when they were fighting Iraq.

Thats a really good tactic IF your are fighting for a noble cause. I dont know excatly why Iran will be fighting. The truth is impossible to know 100% if your not really there. But its kinda like tellin all your peasents (if they care about you I suppose they would do it for ya) to get all the cattle they can. Make wooden poles that look like lances and spears and make them big as hell. Get thousands of them to walk down dirt roads with drapes over their cattles back. Mix in a buttload of make shift standards to raise up. Peasents could apear to out number the enemy and force them to flee and the real attack force smacks an objective. I dont think it would work as good now days though.

Send some scouts ahead that say they are surrounded and to lay there weapons and walk to the army and they will be spared.

Worked for Americans without the peasent part in WW2. Paratroopers landed way off course and just stayed in a tree area. This big ass group of nazis came through and the captain of the squad actually bluffed them into thinking they where surrounded and 1 group of paratroopers captured TONS of nazis.

 

[John Hobbes319]

Isn't that what the Germans thought about the Brittish in WWII. Just bob London, and the Brittish will give in.

Using the terrorism of cruise missles against Islamic Terrorism is not a sure fire formula for success. You need a few more factors. The Iranians are devoted to making the West look foolish. It is widely believed in Iran that the US CIA has manipulated the Iranian government in the past 60 years. A few cruise missles a day would be worth seeing the gas lines arouind the blocks in the West, and fist fights breaking out as tensions rise.

Is your license number even or odd? What days will you be able to purchase gasoline for which of your cars?



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The U.S. doesn't get any oil from Iran, we get most of our oil from Canada and Mexico, I believe Saudi Arabia maybe 3rd on the list. This would destroy their economy long before it even had a decidable impact on ours especially considering that Iranian is completely dependent on foreign fuel IE they have virtually no refining capacity.

 

[John Hobbes319]

How about 50 miles from a fighter jet?

"the USS Stark was nearly cut in half by a pair of Exocets while on patrol in the Persian Gulf. On that occasion US Aegis radar picked up the incoming Iraqi fighter (a French-made Mirage), and tracked its approach to within 50 miles. The radar also "saw" the Iraqi plane turn about and return to its base. But radar never detected the pilot launch his weapons. The sea-skimming Exocets came smoking in under radar and were only sighted by human eyes moments before they ripped into the Stark, crippling the ship and killing 37 US sailors.

The 1987 surprise attack on the Stark exemplifies the dangers posed by anti-ship cruise missiles. And the dangers are much more serious in the case of the Sunburn, whose specs leave the sub-sonic Exocet in the dust. Not only is the Sunburn much larger and faster, it has far greater range and a superior guidance system. Those who have witnessed its performance trials invariably come away stunned. According to one report, when the Iranian Defense Minister Ali Shamkhani visited Moscow in October 2001 he requested a test firing of the Sunburn, which the Russians were only too happy to arrange. So impressed was Ali Shamkhani that he placed an order for an undisclosed number of the missiles. "

The Sunburn - Iran's Awesome Nuclear Anti-Ship Missile

" 750-pound conventional warhead, within a range of 100 miles, more than twice the range of the Exocet. The Sunburn combines a Mach 2.1 speed (two times the speed of sound) with a flight pattern that hugs the deck and includes "violent end maneuvers" to elude enemy defenses. The missile was specifically designed to defeat the US Aegis radar defense system. Should a US Navy Phalanx point defense somehow manage to detect an incoming Sunburn missile, the system has only seconds to calculate a fire solution not enough time to take out the intruding missile. The US Phalanx defense employs a six-barreled gun that fires 3,000 depleted-uranium rounds a minute, but the gun must have precise coordinates to destroy an intruder "just in time."


Sunburn is not shoulder fired, but is tough to stop.

New Page 1

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The best air to ground missile that the Iranians have is the C-802, and the the C-802 is obsolete, the C-802 only has a total range of 120 KM (upgraded versions which the Iranians don't have have a max range of 200km), so we could just park our fleet well out of range, because our aircraft deployed from carriers have far greater range IE the F/A-18 Hornet has a range of 3,330 km, the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet has a range of 2,346 km, their new replacement the F-35 Lightning II has a range of 2,593 km, and our tomahawk missiles have a range of 2500 km, that means that our navy can just move out of range and still be well within range of Iran and the straights of Hormuz, ships move, countries don't our Fleet can still hit them and they can't touch us IE no threat.

C-802 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
F/A-18E/F Super Hornet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
F/A-18 Hornet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
F-35 Lightning II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
BGM-109 Tomahawk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia