Instant Hero? Huh?

[jfuh]

I'm going to play the devil's advocate here to put forth an issue.
It seems today in our lust for something positive that now all of a sudden enrolling to serve in the military instantly makes a person a hero? A patriot of this country?
Sorry, but no, that is simply rediculous.
Hero/heroism is someone that goes above and beyond, sometimes risking everything for doing what is right.

Example:
When Jessica Lynch was brought back she was heroized. when the real hero of that mission was the Iraqi Lawyer Mohammed Odeh al-Rehaief that came out, yet that name alone without Lynch hardly rings a bell to anyone these days.
Ian Fishback was a hero for bringing out the issue of torture at AG. Yet how many of us will know who he is on his name alone?
The Afganistani who sheltered down US seals admist threats from the Taliban.

These are real heros.


We seem to make our selves feel good by honoring those who serve in this war, yet simultaneously dissing the nam-vet on the street corner that happens to be homeless when by the same standard the nam-vet is everybit as heroic.

The fact of our current day military is that though there are many nobel, honorable and selfless reasons that many serve in our military today, however, there is also the majority of those that go in for more selfish reasons as well. Which is why every now and then we have the idiot marine, sailor, sergent on foriegn soil that can't keep his pants zipped up (ie S. Korea, Japan ect.).

The above ppl mentioned were all heros, with Ian Fishback a true patriot.



Sorry, but IMHO, dawning the uniform, discharged honorably, and completing your tour hardly quailifies as a hero nor a patriot.

 

[alphamale]

I'm going to play the devil's advocate here to put forth an issue.
It seems today in our lust for something positive that now all of a sudden enrolling to serve in the military instantly makes a person a hero? A patriot of this country?
Sorry, but no, that is simply rediculous.
Hero/heroism is someone that goes above and beyond, sometimes risking everything for doing what is right.

Example:
When Jessica Lynch was brought back she was heroized. when the real hero of that mission was the Iraqi Lawyer Mohammed Odeh al-Rehaief that came out, yet that name alone without Lynch hardly rings a bell to anyone these days.
Ian Fishback was a hero for bringing out the issue of torture at AG. Yet how many of us will know who he is on his name alone?
The Afganistani who sheltered down US seals admist threats from the Taliban.

These are real heros.


We seem to make our selves feel good by honoring those who serve in this war, yet simultaneously dissing the nam-vet on the street corner that happens to be homeless when by the same standard the nam-vet is everybit as heroic.

The fact of our current day military is that though there are many nobel, honorable and selfless reasons that many serve in our military today, however, there is also the majority of those that go in for more selfish reasons as well. Which is why every now and then we have the idiot marine, sailor, sergent on foriegn soil that can't keep his pants zipped up (ie S. Korea, Japan ect.).

The above ppl mentioned were all heros, with Ian Fishback a true patriot.



Sorry, but IMHO, dawning the uniform, discharged honorably, and completing your tour hardly quailifies as a hero nor a patriot.

Anybody serving there could be killed at any time, and a person like you isn't good enough to lick the boots clean of any one of them.

 

[ProudAmerican]

Its not "all of a sudden"

for those of us that truly love the men and women that serve this country, they have ALWAYS been heros.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

I knew alphamale and proudamerican would be on this one like stink on a monkey. But wheres Navy Pride?

You may have a point on the hero issue. But to not call them patriotic, you're gonna get flamed...

 

[Calm2Chaos]

I'm going to play the devil's advocate here to put forth an issue.
It seems today in our lust for something positive that now all of a sudden enrolling to serve in the military instantly makes a person a hero? A patriot of this country?
Sorry, but no, that is simply rediculous.
Hero/heroism is someone that goes above and beyond, sometimes risking everything for doing what is right.

Example:
When Jessica Lynch was brought back she was heroized. when the real hero of that mission was the Iraqi Lawyer Mohammed Odeh al-Rehaief that came out, yet that name alone without Lynch hardly rings a bell to anyone these days.

I agree.... least partly ... If anyone was the hero it would have been the people that went in to retrieve them. I don't know that people consider all soldiers heros. I think they honor and respect them for doing the job they do.

Ian Fishback was a hero for bringing out the issue of torture at AG. Yet how many of us will know who he is on his name alone?

Hardly

The Afganistani who sheltered down US seals admist threats from the Taliban.

Agreed

These are real heros.


We seem to make our selves feel good by honoring those who serve in this war, yet simultaneously dissing the nam-vet on the street corner that happens to be homeless when by the same standard the nam-vet is everybit as heroic.

I have as much respect if not more for nam vet then anyone walking on this earth right now. Not exactly sure how were dissin the nam vets though. Unless of course your talking about the scumbags in the 60's and 70's and there treatment of them on the return.

The fact of our current day military is that though there are many nobel, honorable and selfless reasons that many serve in our military today, however, there is also the majority of those that go in for more selfish reasons as well. Which is why every now and then we have the idiot marine, sailor, sergent on foriegn soil that can't keep his pants zipped up (ie S. Korea, Japan ect.).

NOorganization of this size is perfect. BUt you can't taint thedesires of the whole group by the mistakes of a few.

The above ppl mentioned were all heros, with Ian Fishback a true patriot.

Again... Hardly

Sorry, but IMHO, dawning the uniform, discharged honorably, and completing your tour hardly quailifies as a hero nor a patriot.

Maybe not a hero but definetly a patriot. Not sure how many times you have been shot at. But this is definetly offering the ultimate sacrifice to your country

 

[jfuh]

I knew alphamale and proudamerican would be on this one like stink on a monkey. But wheres Navy Pride?

You may have a point on the hero issue. But to not call them patriotic, you're gonna get flamed...

AS I said I was playing the devild advocate on this one.
I've met too many a ppl that serve in the military, through college years and highschool years.
Most of them are lost in thier life and want something to help focus thier goals, others for financial reasons to further thier education and some that do it because everyone else was doing it. Sorry, but these hardly to me, seem any bit patriotic to me and are more along the lines of selfish reasons.
This is of course not by anymeans to say that there are those, as per my not before, whom are genuinely selfless going in for the purpose to serve and protect the very principles of the constitution they swore to protect.
The point is, simply serving does not make you a patriot. On the flip side I think it should be added that not serving doesn't mean your not a patriot either.

 

[jfuh]

I agree.... least partly ... If anyone was the hero it would have been the people that went in to retrieve them. I don't know that people consider all soldiers heros. I think they honor and respect them for doing the job they do.

They did what they were trained to do, not really what I would call heroic when storming a hospital that is not really gaurded. Again though, it's the Lawyer whom I think went above and beyond, literally risking his life for what was right.

Hardly

How so hardly?

I have as much respect if not more for nam vet then anyone walking on this earth right now. Not exactly sure how were dissin the nam vets though. Unless of course your talking about the scumbags in the 60's and 70's and there treatment of them on the return.

I'm not talking of the protesters of that era no. I'm talking about the ppl today whom pay 0 attention to the nam vet that happens to be homeless. No compassion and no sympathy. A serious lack for a generation that desperately needs closure.

NOorganization of this size is perfect. BUt you can't taint thedesires of the whole group by the mistakes of a few.

Those were a few examples yes, but the point to be prooven is that not everyone serving is in for nobel causes. The majority are those in for financial and other selfish reasons then that of the true selfless patriot.

Again... Hardly

I don't get it. why hardly?

Maybe not a hero but definetly a patriot. Not sure how many times you have been shot at. But this is definetly offering the ultimate sacrifice to your country

Martin Luther King Jr was an ultimate sacrifice. As I said, simply dawning the uniform and completing a tour without the mindset is not patriotic. Which is why I say that Ian Fishback is a true patriot.

 

[jfuh]

Its not "all of a sudden"

for those of us that truly love the men and women that serve this country, they have ALWAYS been heros.

Haven't thought about it this way. hmm good point.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

They did what they were trained to do, not really what I would call heroic when storming a hospital that is not really gaurded. Again though, it's the Lawyer whom I think went above and beyond, literally risking his life for what was right.

There in a hostile environment where numerous people are trying to kill them. There friends are being killed around them. DEath, destruction, blood and bodies. You can never really be traqined for that. They weren't just air dropped in front of the hospital to do there "job" and then lifted out again never to see iraq again. THere are stories behind everything and a lot more is not een then is.

How so hardly?

HOw so period. HE did nothing of consiquence<sp>, he did nothing patriotic or honorable or helpful. Your fooling yourself if you think he uncovered anything new. Other then the fact those fools took pictures of there stupidity.

Those were a few examples yes, but the point to be prooven is that not everyone serving is in for nobel causes. The majority are those in for financial and other selfish reasons then that of the true selfless patriot.

NO they are'nt, and you have no proof of that statement it's an opinion THEre are financial incentives at best. BUT someone that is unpatriotic would never risk there lives for a soldiers pay or the Friggin GI BIll. BUt in todays military with whats going on you are well aware of whats happening in the world

I don't get it. why hardly?

See above

Martin Luther King Jr was an ultimate sacrifice. As I said, simply dawning the uniform and completing a tour without the mindset is not patriotic. Which is why I say that Ian Fishback is a true patriot.

Which is why I don't agree with you. KNowingly joining an organization that is being put in harms way. KNOwingly going someplace your being shot at and people are dying. Knowingly putting yourself in situations that are life threatening because your country asked you to seems very patriotic.

Have you been in the military? Do you know ANYTHING about what it is like. I just can't believe you have. THere's a lot more to it then just "dawning a uniform" and "completing a tour". ANd if you believe this then I no offense but you are very ignorant IMO on what a soldier goes through.


SOrry for the typing.. spilled soda in my keyboard a bout three weeks ago and it's getting a little worse today

 

[jfuh]

There in a hostile environment where numerous people are trying to kill them. There friends are being killed around them. DEath, destruction, blood and bodies. You can never really be traqined for that. They weren't just air dropped in front of the hospital to do there "job" and then lifted out again never to see iraq again. THere are stories behind everything and a lot more is not een then is.

Even from the video feed on the cameras mounted on the extraction team members I saw nothing of what you described here. We saw on the video them running down the stairs picking her out and back to the chopper. Done. None of this drama you have described.

HOw so period. HE did nothing of consiquence<sp>, he did nothing patriotic or honorable or helpful. Your fooling yourself if you think he uncovered anything new. Other then the fact those fools took pictures of there stupidity.

He went over the heads of his bosses. That very much has serious consequences.
He didn't have to do anything, could've just stood idly by and did nothing, but he upheld the honor, integrity that was taught to him at westpoint and disclosed to the public of what was going on. Sometimes heroism is just that simple. He is indeed a patriot.

NO they are'nt, and you have no proof of that statement it's an opinion THEre are financial incentives at best. BUT someone that is unpatriotic would never risk there lives for a soldiers pay or the Friggin GI BIll. BUt in todays military with whats going on you are well aware of whats happening in the world

When they sign up during a seeminly peaceful times as many did during the peaceful 90's few thought they were risking thier lives.
As I said, though there are many whom are in the military for honorable selfless causes; the majority aren't.
When the bullets do start flying, they're just trying to save thier own a$$ from being shot off as well as that of thier friends. That is how invasionary wars have always been. Revolutionary wars though, that's quite a different story.

Which is why I don't agree with you. KNowingly joining an organization that is being put in harms way. KNOwingly going someplace your being shot at and people are dying. Knowingly putting yourself in situations that are life threatening because your country asked you to seems very patriotic.

Not many ppl realize they're going to get thier heads shot off. Crazy as it sounds a majority just think it too surreal. Once you're in, you're in, you signed a contract that forbids you to leave.

Have you been in the military? Do you know ANYTHING about what it is like. I just can't believe you have. THere's a lot more to it then just "dawning a uniform" and "completing a tour". ANd if you believe this then I no offense but you are very ignorant IMO on what a soldier goes through.

I don't need to dawn a uniform or serve in order to critisize what I have wittnessed and observed.
Gulf 1, most of those who served Gulf 1 barely even fired a shot. Was gulf 1 about patriotism? freedom? democracy?
Afghanistan was about those. However Iraq today was not about those at all; though now it's become a neccesity to focus on it.
You should notice that I'm not dogging on those that are in uniform.

Why do I not dawn the uniform? Because I refuse to be the pawn of these politicians. There are other methods of patriotism towards one's nation.

 

[jamesrage]

I'm going to play the devil's advocate here to put forth an issue.
It seems today in our lust for something positive that now all of a sudden enrolling to serve in the military instantly makes a person a hero? A patriot of this country?
.

I don't know about a hero but anyone who serves in a our nation's military is a patriot of this country.

Sorry, but no, that is simply rediculous.
Hero/heroism is someone that goes above and beyond, sometimes risking everything for doing what is right.

Example:
When Jessica Lynch was brought back she was heroized. when the real hero of that mission was the Iraqi Lawyer Mohammed Odeh al-Rehaief that came out, yet that name alone without Lynch hardly rings a bell to anyone these days.

I don't most people consider Lynch a hero for being a vehicle wreck and spending most of her tour of Iraq in a hospital.Alot of soldiers are angered about the fact she got a bronze star for spending time a iraqi hospital.As a former soldier I feel awarding such an award for spending time ina hospital cheepens the award.

 

[jfuh]

I don't know about a hero but anyone who serves in a our nation's military is a patriot of this country.

Don't we all serve this country? By that are we not all patriots? The National Vangaurd also call themselves patriots, but they are hardly such.
My argument is that you need to have the selfless mindset such as those who got in line immediately after 9/11 to sign up for active military duty. Those are patriots.

I don't most people consider Lynch a hero for being a vehicle wreck and spending most of her tour of Iraq in a hospital.Alot of soldiers are angered about the fact she got a bronze star for spending time a iraqi hospital.As a former soldier I feel awarding such an award for spending time ina hospital cheepens the award.

Exactly, that's exactly the point. Politicizing her over nothing done on her part.
Was a medal of honor or so such given to Mohammed Odeh al-Rehaief?
The Afganistani who sheltered down US seals? Now this afgani is not even given assylum neither. A real shame.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Even from the video feed on the cameras mounted on the extraction team members I saw nothing of what you described here. We saw on the video them running down the stairs picking her out and back to the chopper. Done. None of this drama you have described.

I was talking in general. WHat happens while in IRaq. not just one small piece of tape

He went over the heads of his bosses. That very much has serious consequences.
He didn't have to do anything, could've just stood idly by and did nothing, but he upheld the honor, integrity that was taught to him at westpoint and disclosed to the public of what was going on. Sometimes heroism is just that simple. He is indeed a patriot.

He's not a patriot, he's not close to a patriot. These whatever they are were embarrassed. They werent hung from the ceiling and beat with sticks. He's patriotic move was to uncover embarassing photos in the middle of war...LOL

When they sign up during a seeminly peaceful times as many did during the peaceful 90's few thought they were risking thier lives.

Thats there fault and no one elses. It's the military and thats what they do. NOt to mention it isn't the 90's whats the excuses of the people actually serving in the present. They were well aware of the circumstances. Did they get tricked into thinking the USMC was a big slumber party oin a sand box somehow?

As I said, though there are many whom are in the military for honorable selfless causes; the majority aren't.

UNless you have ANY proof of that statement your just spouting off nonsense and misinformation to try and sustain an argument.

When the bullets do start flying, they're just trying to save thier own a$$ from being shot off as well as that of thier friends. That is how invasionary wars have always been. Revolutionary wars though, that's quite a different story.

War is war..... Again have you been in war or the military? With this military insite you seem to have you must have gotten it from someplace

Not many ppl realize they're going to get thier heads shot off. Crazy as it sounds a majority just think it too surreal. Once you're in, you're in, you signed a contract that forbids you to leave.

LMAO.... ok you keep thinking that. Images all over the web. THe liberal media harping on every knick or cut or problem or explosion or mistake. BUt these people you speak of think it's not real...:rofl Where the hell did you come up with that ...LOL

I don't need to dawn a uniform or serve in order to critisize what I have wittnessed and observed.

SO you know nothing.. OK .. that explains it... A few of your little anarchist friends told you what to think?...LOL

Gulf 1, most of those who served Gulf 1 barely even fired a shot. Was gulf 1 about patriotism? freedom? democracy?

Not sure what your point is? This offensive needs feet down since we are insisting on fighting a PC War. WHich means we are going to put soldiers in danger to make the whiners and liberals a little happier. NOt to metion russia germany aqnd china

Afghanistan was about those. However Iraq today was not about those at all; though now it's become a neccesity to focus on it.

Anytime you serve your country it is about those..PERIOD

You should notice that I'm not dogging on those that are in uniform.

Not directly. BUt your taking your shots

Why do I not dawn the uniform? Because I refuse to be the pawn of these politicians. There are other methods of patriotism towards one's nation.

Or your scared to actually have to pay for your beliefs. EAsier to use the ones someone alsready bought for you.

 

[jfuh]

I was talking in general. WHat happens while in IRaq. not just one small piece of tape

The fallacy being that my argument was very specific as to which event I was refering to.
In which case my argument as a whole is not limited to merely the war today.
Also the vast majority of those in Iraq do not have bullets wizzing by them in situations as per your description.

He's not a patriot, he's not close to a patriot. These whatever they are were embarrassed. They werent hung from the ceiling and beat with sticks. He's patriotic move was to uncover embarassing photos in the middle of war...LOL

His patriotic and heroic move was going against his peers and recognizing that what was going on in AG was wrong. Plain and simple. To take an action based on the principles of what was going on and not upon what is more popular.
Also you're accusation that these were merely embarrassments is highly flawed in the insufficient reasoning of many Iraqi's also ending up missing and dead from AG.

Thats there fault and no one elses. It's the military and thats what they do. NOt to mention it isn't the 90's whats the excuses of the people actually serving in the present. They were well aware of the circumstances. Did they get tricked into thinking the USMC was a big slumber party oin a sand box somehow?

By the recruitment tactics that I have witnessed indeed much of those details are completely left out and instead focused on the various benefits as offered from military service.
Indeed though it is thier own ignorance for assuming of only getting benefits and no need to sacrifice.Source
Source 2 - A Comparative Study of U.S. Military Recruitment in the Irvine and Santa Ana Unified School Districts

The diminishing rate of enlistment has led the military to implement more aggressive recruitment strategies in public high schools, focusing on gathering student private information, exploiting the vulnerabilities of underprivileged youth, and sugarcoating the benefits of a military career.

http://www.urop.uci.edu/symposium/past_symposia/06/abstracts2.html

UNless you have ANY proof of that statement your just spouting off nonsense and misinformation to try and sustain an argument.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1210-20.htm
http://boston.indymedia.org/feature/display/45140
http://www.cbc.ca/passionateeye/buildmeup/join.html

While some recruits may be eager to join the 'war on terrorism', more are joining because of a slump in the U.S. job market.

War is war..... Again have you been in war or the military? With this military insite you seem to have you must have gotten it from someplace

I needn't be on the front line to have heard from ppl who've been in war. WWII vets from a variety of sides, Korean War, Veitnam. All come down to the same thing. When bullets start flying, you don't care about why you are there or what the mission is, you only care about saving your own *** and that of your friends.

LMAO.... ok you keep thinking that. Images all over the web. THe liberal media harping on every knick or cut or problem or explosion or mistake. BUt these people you speak of think it's not real...:rofl Where the hell did you come up with that ...LOL

See sources cited above. It's not medial hype it's the reality of the mentality of high school recruits.

SO you know nothing.. OK .. that explains it... A few of your little anarchist friends told you what to think?...LOL

And you have? Even if you have so what? Does your voice reflect that of the majority? I would prefer you refrain from personal attacks and maintain a civility to debate this matter.

Not sure what your point is? This offensive needs feet down since we are insisting on fighting a PC War. WHich means we are going to put soldiers in danger to make the whiners and liberals a little happier. NOt to metion russia germany aqnd china

This has nothing to do with PC.

Anytime you serve your country it is about those..PERIOD

Not true.

Not directly. BUt your taking your shots

Another ad hominen.

Or your scared to actually have to pay for your beliefs. EAsier to use the ones someone alsready bought for you.

more ad hominen that does nothing to invalidate the argument I've presented.

 

[Donkey1499]

Anybody serving there could be killed at any time, and a person like you isn't good enough to lick the boots clean of any one of them.

BURN!!!!!!

 

[Donkey1499]

I'm going to play the devil's advocate here to put forth an issue.
It seems today in our lust for something positive that now all of a sudden enrolling to serve in the military instantly makes a person a hero? A patriot of this country?
Sorry, but no, that is simply rediculous.
Hero/heroism is someone that goes above and beyond, sometimes risking everything for doing what is right.

Example:
When Jessica Lynch was brought back she was heroized. when the real hero of that mission was the Iraqi Lawyer Mohammed Odeh al-Rehaief that came out, yet that name alone without Lynch hardly rings a bell to anyone these days.
Ian Fishback was a hero for bringing out the issue of torture at AG. Yet how many of us will know who he is on his name alone?
The Afganistani who sheltered down US seals admist threats from the Taliban.

These are real heros.


We seem to make our selves feel good by honoring those who serve in this war, yet simultaneously dissing the nam-vet on the street corner that happens to be homeless when by the same standard the nam-vet is everybit as heroic.

The fact of our current day military is that though there are many nobel, honorable and selfless reasons that many serve in our military today, however, there is also the majority of those that go in for more selfish reasons as well. Which is why every now and then we have the idiot marine, sailor, sergent on foriegn soil that can't keep his pants zipped up (ie S. Korea, Japan ect.).

The above ppl mentioned were all heros, with Ian Fishback a true patriot.



Sorry, but IMHO, dawning the uniform, discharged honorably, and completing your tour hardly quailifies as a hero nor a patriot.

So the leak of a story (Abu Ghraib) that would only fuel the fires of the terrorists was a heroic deed? The story should've been kept quiet. What was the purpose of letting the enemy, let alone the world, know about the treatment of prisoners by a small few soldiers? That LEAK, not WHISTLEBLOW, just put our troops in more danger than they were before. How does Fishback get to sleep at night?

 

[jfuh]

So the leak of a story (Abu Ghraib) that would only fuel the fires of the terrorists was a heroic deed? The story should've been kept quiet. What was the purpose of letting the enemy, let alone the world, know about the treatment of prisoners by a small few soldiers? That LEAK, not WHISTLEBLOW, just put our troops in more danger than they were before. How does Fishback get to sleep at night?

The prisoner abuse at AG was a desicration against the constitution to which these ppl swore to uphold.
Should this have been swept under the rug and kept quiet for what were clearly human injustices? This is of our own wrong doing. What is wrong is always going to be wrong.

 

[Donkey1499]

The prisoner abuse at AG was a desicration against the constitution to which these ppl swore to uphold.
Should this have been swept under the rug and kept quiet for what were clearly human injustices? This is of our own wrong doing. What is wrong is always going to be wrong.

So it's our fault that those retards did that? How so?

And some things need to be kept quiet. What ever happened to the most coveted privacy amongst libs? Oh yeah, soldiers did it, so it's time to smear.

 

[jfuh]

So it's our fault that those retards did that? How so?

When the white house said gloves off and gave the finger to the geneva convention that then set forth an uncertainty where there was certainty. When I say our fault, it means the fault of the US. Not the fault of our enemy that such actions occured. We have no one to blame but ourselves for the torture in AG.

And some things need to be kept quiet. What ever happened to the most coveted privacy amongst libs? Oh yeah, soldiers did it, so it's time to smear.

Baseless partisan squabble. Right to privacy is completely inapplicable.

 

[MSgt]

:roll: ......what a stupendous thread.

 

[jamesrage]

Don't we all serve this country?

No,not everyone has served this country.Working a 9-5 job to pay bills and live a confortable lifestyle is not serving this country.Serving in this nation's military is serving this country.

By that are we not all patriots?

no

My argument is that you need to have the selfless mindset such as those who got in line immediately after 9/11 to sign up for active military duty. Those are patriots.

I think anyone who joins the military are patriots.No one signs the dotted line expecting to never go to war,only a fool would do that.That would be like signing up to be a boxer and never expecting to fight.

Exactly, that's exactly the point. Politicizing her over nothing done on her part.

I blame the liberal infestation of our military for that nonsense.Some feminazi trying to give the impression that females can handle combat used some girl as a pawn.Lynch during a tv interview with diane sawer or barbara walters(I forget which woman,those look alike to me) revealed that the only thing she did was ride in the middle of a HMMWV,the HMMWV ran into a jack knifed truck an she wound up in hospital.

Was a medal of honor or so such given to Mohammed Odeh al-Rehaief?
The Afganistani who sheltered down US seals? Now this afgani is not even given assylum neither. A real shame.

Its a shame that those indivuals were not rewarded.

 

[jfuh]

No,not everyone has served this country.Working a 9-5 job to pay bills and live a confortable lifestyle is not serving this country.Serving in this nation's military is serving this country.

How is serving in the military then for the benefits alone by any means serving the country. It's just another 9-5 job. Such jobs keep the economy afloat. Maintaining the competitiveness of our economy over other countries. Like I said, the mentality and selflessness is the key point, not simply dawning the uniform.

I think anyone who joins the military are patriots.No one signs the dotted line expecting to never go to war,only a fool would do that.That would be like signing up to be a boxer and never expecting to fight.

As per the sources I've provided prior there are indeed many ppl such as these. Not only are they completely un-patriotic they are cowards. But, they exist and there's many of such ppl.

I blame the liberal infestation of our military for that nonsense.Some feminazi trying to give the impression that females can handle combat used some girl as a pawn.Lynch during a tv interview with diane sawer or barbara walters(I forget which woman,those look alike to me) revealed that the only thing she did was ride in the middle of a HMMWV,the HMMWV ran into a jack knifed truck an she wound up in hospital.

Liberal infestation? Feminazi? I'll respond when you take such crap out of your arguments.

Its a shame that those indivuals were not rewarded.

The reward is not the main point. But the Afgahni is now still in Afgahnistan, known to those around for aiding US soldiers and the state department is not giving asylum.
What credibility do we now have to ask foriegners for help anymore? It's a real shame.

 

[jamesrage]

How is serving in the military then for the benefits alone by any means serving the country.

Depends on what MOS someone has.

It's just another 9-5 job.

The military is not another 9-5 job..

Such jobs keep the economy afloat. Maintaining the competitiveness of our economy over other countries. Like I said, the mentality and selflessness is the key point, not simply dawning the uniform.

Comparing the military to just a job is a insult.It would be like me comparing a man with a garden hose to a fireman.

As per the sources I've provided prior there are indeed many ppl such as these. Not only are they completely un-patriotic they are cowards. But, they exist and there's many of such ppl.

There are not mamy of these people in the military,some of them are deserters who live in Canada.

Liberal infestation? Feminazi? I'll respond when you take such crap out of your arguments.

If you knew of the nonsense going on you might say those same things too.I call it the deballing and sissyfication of our troops.When I was in the Army the drill sergeants cursed,smoked the living **** out of the recruits, and sang cadence with such words as "kill the enemy" in them.Drill sergeants used to ask recruits"What makes the grass grow?" and you would yell "BLOOD! BLOOD! BRIGHT RED BLOOD!,but that is proably no longer allowed in todays pc army. Now drill sergeants can't cuss,smoke the **** out of recruits and I have heard that recruits are handed out time out cards so that if they feel stressed they can give that card to the drill sergeant.Singing cadence with such words as kill the enemy is considered offensive,people outside of infantry units are no longer allowed to curse because someone might cry and their feelings might be hurt.

The reward is not the main point. But the Afgahni is now still in Afgahnistan, known to those around for aiding US soldiers and the state department is not giving asylum.

I thought asylum was given to political refugees,kind of hard to be a political refuge in a country the we liberated from the Taliban.

 

[easyt65]

In the 1st post, the originator stated, if I am correct, that those who join the military do not deserve being honored as heroes.

My first question would have to be has the author of that post ever served in the military. I am sure someone would argue that the answer to that has nothing to do with the issue. I would have to disagree, at least in part.

Making a decision to forsake better, more financially lucrative, more comfortable, and definitely safer opportunities in favor of choosing a hard, disciplined life, the decision to give ones life if need be for the good of one's nation, our way of life, and the people we love back at home is extremely honorable, noble, even - yes, heroic. One case in point is the NFL football star who gave up millions of dollars and the safety/security of staying at home and living the life of a star athelete for the opportunity to join the military to defend our homes and to try to help make sure another 9/11 never happened here at home, even though he knew it may cost him his life. How many other millionaires, atheletes, hollywood stars, politicians...or even regular joe-blow citizens would do that?

The men and women putting their necks on the line every day in Afghanistan and Iraq are heroes, and they deserve better, more respect than our politicians calling them Nazis, genocidal regemists, and terrorists!

In one way, if a mother can be a hero to her daughter, if LeBron James can be a hero to several thousands of small boys across the country who want to be him, if a firefighter is a hero for wearing the uniform and for having enough courage to want to go into a burning building....why can't someone who decides to join the military - deciding to make the ultimate sacrifice if necessary - to protect this country and our loved ones, as well as give us all the freedoms we take for granted so, be a hero?!

As one soldier I knew said, "No one can plan to be a hero. No one tries to be a hero. It just happens. Under extremely difficult situations, heroes are born when we rise up and do what needs to be done." The kind of hero he is talking about is one born under fire, in some disaster, or chaos. making the decision to make the utimate sacrifice by signing on the dotted ine and puttin on the uniform does take thought and concern...and in the end, not all of us can do it. Those who do not bear no shame, but those of us who do SHOULD be respected and honored!

That's just MY opinion!

 

[Calm2Chaos]

The fallacy being that my argument was very specific as to which event I was refering to.
In which case my argument as a whole is not limited to merely the war today.
Also the vast majority of those in Iraq do not have bullets wizzing by them in situations as per your description.

But you /we were talking or at least I was of the guys that had to go in and get her. Not sure how that got lost

His patriotic and heroic move was going against his peers and recognizing that what was going on in AG was wrong. Plain and simple. To take an action based on the principles of what was going on and not upon what is more popular.
Also you're accusation that these were merely embarrassments is highly flawed in the insufficient reasoning of many Iraqi's also ending up missing and dead from AG.

NO proof whatsoever that any of that had to do with the soldiers at AG. HE showed the world embarrasing photos to make the country look bad. Hey you wanna call that a patriot fine by me. I'm thining of taking a **** on the declaration of independence and that should make me a great patriot.

By the recruitment tactics that I have witnessed indeed much of those details are completely left out and instead focused on the various benefits as offered from military service.

THere has ALWAYS been incentives for joining the military, THE risk has increased so the incentives have. YOu have no valid point here that says anything. Your article specifically says the majority of recruiters are good. And if you go to a recruiter and he tells you "ya theres a war on and people are dying but you'll be fine" and you believe that ... you should actually go kill yourself, because your truly to stupid to live.

Indeed though it is thier own ignorance for assuming of only getting benefits and no need to sacrifice.

The military isn't a welfare program, it's a warfare program.


I looked at your links and none had much impact on what were talking about. People join the military to earn money, earn college tuition, learn a trade, be trained in a skill, serve there country, fight for there country, to earn respect, to learn discipline etc etc. But your trying to equate there training and money as being the only cause... Whatever the reason, if you fight and sacrafice for this company i consider you a hero, regaurdless of your motivation. If you belittle and berate this country I regaurd you as an oqygen thief. NO ......holding a sign protesting an action during that action is not patriotism or heroism or anything else usefull.

Yet for all your links.. Re-enlistment is still above average.

From Oct. 1 through June, the Army had re-enlisted 53,120 soldiers, 6% ahead of its goal of about 50,000 for that period. At that pace, the Army would finish the year 3,850 troops ahead of its target of 64,162.

Re-enlistment rates the past three years have been at least 6% above the service's goals for the 500,000-member active Army. There are about 105,000 Army soldiers in Iraq, including members of the National Guard and Reserve.



They all got tricked the first time.... UM... whjats there excuse the second or third time?

I needn't be on the front line to have heard from ppl who've been in war. WWII vets from a variety of sides, Korean War, Veitnam. All come down to the same thing. When bullets start flying, you don't care about why you are there or what the mission is, you only care about saving your own *** and that of your friends.

BUt that is there mission. Your premise makes no sense. THere job is to stay alive and kill the enemy. Do what your told, and keep an eye on your brother. It's not to run out in front of the enemy screaming insults at him. The whole concept is utterly ridiculous. If when the bullets started to fly, the majority of the soldiers did nothing but go in survival mode nothing would get accomplished. No goals would be reached no battles won. Your completely wrong IMO. They have objectives and they conquer them. At no time does the survival instinct tell you to run towards the guy shooting at you... FUC KING NEVER. Thats training, skill, and bravery that gets you were you need to be.

See sources cited above. It's not medial hype it's the reality of the mentality of high school recruits.

Again incentives have been around forever. Again makes no real statement about what we are talking about in my opinion

And you have? Even if you have so what? Does your voice reflect that of the majority? I would prefer you refrain from personal attacks and maintain a civility to debate this matter.

Grow up and thicken your skin, I don't recall calling you a name or insulting you. I actually asked a question and at worst made a snide comment. Neither of which was a personal attack.

As for my voice and the majority, i don't knoiw. You however seem to think yours does, you have used the word several times in your posts.

This has nothing to do with PC.

Has everything to do with PC. This war if fought like every other war in modern history would have been over by now. And the US death toll wouldn't have hit 3 digits.

Not true.

We disagree then.

Another ad hominen.

It is what it is. This whole thread is a shot.

more ad hominen that does nothing to invalidate the argument I've presented.

Just stating a simple truth as I see it.