Atiya
Active member
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2014
- Messages
- 287
- Reaction score
- 143
- Location
- New York, NY
- Gender
- Female
- Political Leaning
- Slightly Liberal
Conventions in Indiana? : shock: I've been to conventions all over the world and never one there. I'm not sure how the threats to Pence are going to work...they said Arizona was dead after Brewer signed her bill into law, and tourism hasn't suffered there.
I'll bet SCOTUS will overturn this easily.
OK, this is why debating with libertarians is often so pointless. Sure, you're correctly repeating standard libertarian ideology, and it's totally unhinged from reality, unconscionable from a public policy standpoint, and obviously morally repugnant.
Well, to be fair, you wouldn't hold a hospital responsible for withholding life saving care, so obviously this isn't a problem in libertarian land.... :roll:
and of course that other tiny detail that there's nothing unconstitutional about the act.I wouldn't bet too much on the Supreme Court of the US. A couple of the Jurists (Clarence Thomas and Antonin Scalia) are under the strong financial influence of the Koch brothers and are paid handsomely. Justice Samuel Alito is very conservative and allowed foreign money to come into America to possibly influence elections. Justice Anthony Kennedy is usually a swing vote and, for the most part, unreliable as to which way he will go.
The bill needs to be changed so that businesses to reject any customer for any reason they want.
LOL. Maybe they'll need to change their slogan a bit. "Honest-to-Goodness Indiana! Blacks, gays, Jews, Muslims may not be welcome!"
Hate is a great powerful tool. It unifies the GOP base. The GOP base hates gays more then they are willing to vote for their own interests. And that's exactly how the anti-gay Republican politicians like it.
Well ok, but it is factual, right? If their condition was not changed how can you claim they were harmed?
Your client is mad. I don't see how that is good standing for law.
I can appreciate that and it would be relevant if the business we're talking about here was one that involved membership, dues, and other conditions of association. You're local bakery or variety store isn't such a business.
Conventions in Indiana? :shock: I've been to conventions all over the world, and never one there. I'm not sure how the threats to Pence are going to work...they said Arizona was dead after Brewer signed her bill into law, and tourism hasn't suffered there.
I'll bet SCOTUS will overturn this easily.
If I recall correctly, it was the black voters who passed Proposition 8 in the blue state of California. They aren't Republicans.
Top officials with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints filed reports today indicating that they donated more than $180,000 in in-kind contributions to Proposition 8, the November ballot initiative that banned same-sex marriage in California.
The contributions included tens of thousands of dollars for expenses such as airline tickets, hotel and restaurant bills and car-rental bills for top church officials such as L. Whitney Clayton, along with $96,849.31 worth of “compensated staff time” for church employees.
The church said the expenditures took place between July 1 and the end of the year. The church’s involvement has been a major issue in the campaign and its aftermath. Individual Mormon families donated millions -- by some estimates more than $20 million -- of their own money to the campaign.
I also don't recall anything in the Republican platform about denying service to gay people.
And I also recall earlier in this month when 300+ Republican lawmakers publicly appealed to SCOTUS to recognize same sex marriage nationally.
Mike Pence doesn't speak for the RNC or the Republican base. Nor do his actions indicate that Republicans "hate gays". He's doing what he thinks is best for his state and to ensure that the religious people in his state aren't forced into commerce against their will.
This is excellent news. Hopefully this reinforcement of the concept of liberty will spread. Kudos to Mike Pence
Mike Penace should think about the legacy he is leaving for his grandchildren and their grandchildren. Not many people can say their grandpa was a state governor, and if I could, I would want to be proud of his actions. In 20 more years, his actions are going look as ass backwards as supporting racial segregation.
And if a governor decides to pass a bill allowing discrimination of whatever YOU are?
Then what?
I am sure he gets pissed every time he hears about a bakery going out of business after refusing to decorate cakes for gay weddings. I have seen countless of conservatives gripping about that in threads here.
Any business that hangs a "we don't serve homosexuals" sign in Indiana, deserves to be protested and run out of business, and I will gladly take part in the protest. I currently live in Indianapolis, but I am not from here.
Side note: What is the current status of gay marriage in Indiana? I know Pence has been fighting against gay marriage, and they were briefly legal. I am not sure where the issue stands now.
1) It's beside the point. Once I reach unconscionable and morally repugnant, I am not all that concerned about factual.
2) I don't agree that there is any moral distinction between deliberately allowing a preventable death and being the cause of a death. I know libertarians like to use the example of the drowning man - do I have an obligation to risk my life to save his? OK, difficult. But if I'm in a boat and all it takes is me throwing out a life preserver and a rope to save a life, and I choose not do, I've caused that death as much as if I threw him overboard.
Conventions in Indiana? :shock: I've been to conventions all over the world, and never one there. I'm not sure how the threats to Pence are going to work...they said Arizona was dead after Brewer signed her bill into law, and tourism hasn't suffered there.
I'll bet SCOTUS will overturn this easily.
The Indiana RFRA largely follows the federal RFRA of 1993, originally presented by (then) Representative Chuck Schumer of New York.
Wrong.
People are free to start their businesses as membership clubs. Then they are free to discriminate. No one is forced to run their business as a public accomodation, but if they choose to do so, they have to actually serve the public.
For profit "membership clubs" are typically not except from Public Accommodation laws. To be exempt they have to be: Not-for-Profit, have bylaws and criteria, have a restrictive membership relative to the statement membership, and be governed by an elected board of the members.
Nobody would think that Costco, Sam's Club, and BJ's Warehouse would be exempt from Pubic Accommodation laws even though people pay a membership fee to join.
>>>>
For profit clubs can be restrictive in their membership
Well, I don't think that makes any sense. If I fail to save some guy that fell overboard I didn't kill him and more likely no one else did. The guy just fell off the boat. No one is responsible for that.
Conventions in Indiana? :shock: I've been to conventions all over the world, and never one there. I'm not sure how the threats to Pence are going to work...they said Arizona was dead after Brewer signed her bill into law, and tourism hasn't suffered there.
I'll bet SCOTUS will overturn this easily.
Wed February 26, 2014
Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer vetoed a bill Wednesday that would have allowed businesses that asserted their religious beliefs the right to deny service to gay and lesbian customers.
Yes, food is essential. Banana smoothies? Not so much.
Liberty is always a balancing act. For me, personally, the government should only infringe on one's liberty when it GREATLY benefits the people and doesn't overburden them. For example, I am fine with not allowing explosives on commercial planes. The tradeoff is worth it.
Preventing people from getting their meds is not worth a person's right to do whatever they want. Preventing someone from getting a cake is.
I do limit this to private non-essential services. Publicly traded corporations should not be able to discriminate. They receive several financial advantages and protections under the law from the government and if they want to enjoy those advantages then they shouldn't be able to discriminate. And of course most grocery stores in the US are publicly traded corporations.
I think laws should change with the times. I think there was a time in our recent history that public accommodation laws made sense. But I believe we have advanced enough that they are no longer needed. The overwhelming majority of business owners just want to make a profit.
Fair enough.
If I recall correctly, it was the black voters who passed Proposition 8 in the blue state of California.
Blacks were 7% of the voting population and voted 58% in support of Prop 8.
Other demographics that had a greater impact were:
Conservative - 36% of the voting population voting 82% in support of the measure
Republican - 34% of the voting population voting 81% in support of the measure
Weekly Religious Services - 45% of the voting population voting 70% of the measure
Age 65+ - 23% of the voting population voting 67% in support of the measure
Latino/Hispanic - 14% of the voting population voting 59% in support of the measure
It would be more accurate to say that Conservatives, Republicans, Religous Folks, older folks, and Latino/Hispanics had more impact on passing Prop 8 than did Blacks.
http://www.thetaskforce.org/static_html/downloads/reports/reports/pi_prop8_1_6_09.pdf
>>>>
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?