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Incompetence summed up in one graph

Some countries in the EU may be ignoring people who are asymptomatic or have a runny nose - it's not a legit comparison

The important numbers are the hospitalization rates and death rates

Illogical. Europeans have better access to healthcare than Americans and have done more testing per capita, as rule. The US just let it get out of control.

Why are you attempting to defend the indefensible? The US screwed this up. Take ownership.

Coronavirus Update (Live): 8,383,226 Cases and 450,215 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Pandemic - Worldometer
 
Hi!

With reference to the paragraph above in bold, it's a statement that's been said and written by many. It implies, of course, some sort of cost/benefit computation. Such a calculation would, by necessity, require that the deaths from the SARS-CoV-2 virus and the loss of jobs and revenue be taken into account. They would have to be assigned relative values. That leads to questions:

How many lost jobs equal a lost life?

Alternately, if things such as jobs and lives are given dollar values, what is the worth of a human life?

Regards, stay safe 'n well.

The answer to that question is this: At some point you could do many things to protect people from infection and thus possibly save those lives, maybe even most lives. But with western economies going into recession, possibly economic depression. loss of GDP, loss of production, diminished food production, and breaks in food supply chains. That situation does not just affect the wealthier nations, it will down the line severely impact poorer nations and regions. Then the risk of starvation, famine, economic and political unrest will result in what? Loss of many more human lives.

Therefore we cannot just think of this pandemic in micro terms, we need to think in macro terms. And like I already said, the virus is going to do what it does naturally until the point where we reach herd immunity anyway.

A couple of examples of the ethics being discussed would be these:

1) man has his leg caught in a railroad track but if you throw a track switch you can save his life, but the train will crash and kill many on the train. So what is his one life worth compared to the many others?

2) in WW2 the allied effort to liberate France and drive the Germans back to Germany and ultimately be defeated meant that tens of thousands of French civilians would be killed in the allied bombing raids and then the beach assaults and the fighting which would occur between allied forces and the German army on French soil. Many thousands of non combatants killed. So what was the "cost benefit" had the allies decided to not take that action, and how many more millions would die before Hitler ran out of people to put into ovens.

Hope that explains my view on the subject.
 
Very hard to tell that to the families of 115,000 dead people. Seems as if conservatives just don't give a hoot about them. It's all about money. Open everything up. Tell everyone that it's all OK and not to worry. Deplorable. While all the law makers are getting tested 3 and 4 times a day. Most of the average poor folks still can't get a test.

Liberals don't care about dead people or their families, otherwise they would have solved the gang murders and other problems in their liberal run cities over the last 50 years. They also champion the wanton killing of many aborted fetuses without blinking an eye. Liberals don't care about people, just themselves.

I never said people at risk should not lock down, all I said was that the economic ruin of too long of a lock down WILL result in more death and more pain... but guess what, it won't be wealthy people, it will be poor people and not just in the USA. But trying to talk to a liberal about that kind of logic is like trying to talk to a 2 year old about why not everything is a "me" and "mine" situation.
 
Fiscal results.

LOL

18c13c455f693a6d68bd4e2e519c7d0b.jpg

Yes, as usual and in true cult fashion you place blame on the President for the pandemic results ignoring that we are recovering from a pandemic and ignoring that the worst states in the nation are NY, NJ, Ill, Cal, and MA, all Democratic Blue states with Democratic Governors who own these results.

Didn't see or hear anything out of you in 2011 when Obama had 15 million unemployed with no pandemic and Trump is at 21 million last month with the pandemic. Tell us why such loyalty to liberalism

Recession ended June 2009

Labor Force Statistics from the Current Population Survey
Original Data Value

Series Id: LNS13000000
Seasonally Adjusted
Series title: (Seas) Unemployment Level
Labor force status: Unemployed
Type of data: Number in thousands
Age: 16 years and over
Years: 2010 to 2020

Year Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec
2010 15046 15113 15202 15325 14849 14474 14512 14648 14579 14516 15081 14348
2011 14013 13820 13737 13957 13855 13962 13763 13818 13948 13594 13302 13093
2012 12797 12813 12713 12646 12660 12692 12656 12471 12115 12124 12005 12298
2013 12471 11950 11689 11760 11654 11751 11335 11279 11270 11136 10787 10404
2014 10202 10349 10380 9702 9859 9460 9608 9599 9262 8990 9090 8717
2015 8885 8599 8515 8550 8834 8247 8167 7992 7907 7922 8000 7907
2016 7721 7746 7945 7975 7668 7786 7658 7809 7967 7827 7488 7495
2017 7518 7399 7088 7085 7059 6933 6867 7097 6841 6599 6697 6561
2018 6582 6641 6493 6418 6209 6519 6180 6167 6045 6123 6034 6286
2019 6516 6181 6194 5850 5938 5985 6027 5999 5753 5857 5811 5753
2020 5892 5787 7140 23078 20985
 
Yes, as usual and in true cult fashion you place blame on the President for the pandemic results ignoring that we are recovering from a pandemic and ignoring that the worst states in the nation are NY, NJ, Ill, Cal, and MA, all Democratic Blue states with Democratic Governors who own these results.

Didn't see or hear anything out of you in 2011 when Obama had 15 million unemployed with no pandemic and Trump is at 21 million last month with the pandemic. Tell us why such loyalty to liberalism

Recession ended June 2009

Why am I going to complain about the economy in 2011?

This is 2020, and trump has driving the country into a sewer.
 
The EU population is larger. That means all things being equal, the US should have less cases now.

It’s complicated math, I know. :roll:

THE poster is correct, you need to use hospitalization numbers and death numbers not tested cases.
 
THE poster is correct, you need to use hospitalization numbers and death numbers not tested cases.

That poster is rarely correct, and if you use a little gray matter, or find someone who has some, you can figure out those numbers all by yourself.

Protip- they don’t look great for the US either.
 
The answer to that question is this: At some point you could do many things to protect people from infection and thus possibly save those lives, maybe even most lives. But with western economies going into recession, possibly economic depression. loss of GDP, loss of production, diminished food production, and breaks in food supply chains. That situation does not just affect the wealthier nations, it will down the line severely impact poorer nations and regions. Then the risk of starvation, famine, economic and political unrest will result in what? Loss of many more human lives.

Therefore we cannot just think of this pandemic in micro terms, we need to think in macro terms. And like I already said, the virus is going to do what it does naturally until the point where we reach herd immunity anyway.

A couple of examples of the ethics being discussed would be these:

1) man has his leg caught in a railroad track but if you throw a track switch you can save his life, but the train will crash and kill many on the train. So what is his one life worth compared to the many others?

2) in WW2 the allied effort to liberate France and drive the Germans back to Germany and ultimately be defeated meant that tens of thousands of French civilians would be killed in the allied bombing raids and then the beach assaults and the fighting which would occur between allied forces and the German army on French soil. Many thousands of non combatants killed. So what was the "cost benefit" had the allies decided to not take that action, and how many more millions would die before Hitler ran out of people to put into ovens.

Hope that explains my view on the subject.

Hi! Thanks for the response.

I agree with you entirely that given two courses of action -- one which will result in an overall lesser number of deaths and the other a greater number of deaths -- the moral choice is the former.

In an economic cost/benefit analysis, though, it isn't necessarily deaths vs. deaths but rather dollars vs. deaths. Thus my question.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.
 
Why am I going to complain about the economy in 2011?

This is 2020, and trump has driving the country into a sewer.
You have zero credibility, embarrassing

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Europe peaked much higher, though, which means immunity has had more of an effect there - the European Union is much more dense - people living in Kansas, for example, haven't had regional exposure, so our death numbers are still coming in higher than theirs

It's similar to stating that New York numbers are coming down, while Texas numbers are climbing - this doesn't mean that New York did a better job treating people than Texas did, they've just already reached their peak, and had hundreds of thousands of people exposed already

No one has enough people infected as of yet to have any significant impact on the spread of the virus. Even Sweden where they are actually trying to get to herd immunity only has about 8% of their population infected. You need more like 70% for herd immunity to work.

You don’t need lots of infected people to get the number of deaths and cases to come down. That’s just nonsense. You just have to do a good job fighting the virus. South Korea only has 239 cases per million to our 6700 cases per million. They only have 5 deaths per million to our 362 deaths per million. Yesterday they had 43 new cases, we had 26,000. They had 1 new death we had 800. We are just doing a horrible job. Or in Trump’s language, it’s a disaster.


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???

If Europe tested more asymptomatic people/people with sniffles (lol), they would have more positive tests per people tested than we would, with everything else being equal

There is no way of confirming this without hospitalization data, which is impossible to find

You can get ICU data from worldometer.


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No one has enough people infected as of yet to have any significant impact on the spread of the virus. Even Sweden where they are actually trying to get to herd immunity only has about 8% of their population infected. You need more like 70% for herd immunity to work.

You need 70% in order for people to literally be immune, but the virus can still be weakened in an area, in terms of people's symptoms, if a massive number of people have been exposed

Thanks for the Worldometer link BTW
 
You can get ICU data from worldometer.

The problem is the reliability of the data internationally - I have a hard time believing that the U. K. only has 379 "serious cases" when they're deaths/million is 621, and ours is 362

I don't think there's consistency from nation to nation regarding what constitutes a "serious case"
 
You need 70% in order for people to literally be immune, but the virus can still be weakened in an area, in terms of people's symptoms, if a massive number of people have been exposed

Thanks for the Worldometer link BTW

No country has had a massive percentage of people exposed. Worldometer calls it serious/critical.


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The problem is the reliability of the data internationally - I have a hard time believing that the U. K. only has 379 "serious cases" when they're deaths/million is 621, and ours is 362

I don't think there's consistency from nation to nation regarding what constitutes a "serious case"

Deaths per million measures the past all the way back to the start of the pandemic which is not relevant to how many people are in the ICU today. The virus has been beaten back in the UK, it used to be much worse. They are only having 1,100 - 1,200 new cases per day while we are having 25,000 to 26,000. With that small number of new cases it only makes sense that their ICU number would be low.


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??

"Serious/Critical" does not indicate the number of people exposed to the virus

Sorry for the confusion, I was just trying to clarify what worldometer calls ICU beds with the last sentence. The two sentences are not related.


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Lol 3goofs - Let's have another discussion about that Lancet study and who was correct :lamo

Oh. Right. You knew the data was fraudulent. [emoji849]

I’m guessing you never even looked at the study, and I know damn well you couldn’t explain it even if you did.
 
Deaths per million measures the past all the way back to the start of the pandemic which is not relevant to how many people are in the ICU today. The virus has been beaten back in the UK, it used to be much worse. They are only having 1,100 - 1,200 new cases per day while we are having 25,000 to 26,000. With that small number of new cases it only makes sense that their ICU number would be low.

Do we have any data on number of new ICU cases in the U. S.? Seems like that would clear everything up, it wouldn't be affected by the amount of testing

For example, San Francisco has 60 new cases, but the number of ICU cases are going down...This would indicate that the rise in cases there could be related to an increase in people with mild or no symptoms going to get tested

Coronavirus: 60 new cases in San Francisco, fewer ICU patients
 
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