• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

In Ukraine’s West, Draft Dodgers Run, and Swim, to Avoid the War

Jredbaron96 said:
Because more than 80% of Ukraines populace doesn't live in those oblasts.
Click to expand...
It's less than 80% around the time of the Kiev Maidan considering that it was not just the breakaway
oblasts that strongly supported Yanu over the EU leaning candidate
IN the last election when Ukraine still numbered Crimea & the Donbass oblasts , Karkiv & Odessa
on the other hand supported the Russian leaning candidate Yanu both by over 70%.
 

Attachments

  • UKRAINE OBLASTS POPULATION 2015.webp
    UKRAINE OBLASTS POPULATION 2015.webp
    33.5 KB · Views: 4
Last edited:
ModernDiogenes said:
It’s a war of the like minded with aligned interests.
The West wants Putin diminished for the harm he is doing. The Ukrainians want a nation that isn’t a puppet state of Putin’s Russia.
Click to expand...


There is no such thing as "The Ukrainians". Ukraine is a nation with an ethnic faultline. The Bandera ethnic Ukrainians to the west of Ukraine want out of Russian influence. The ethnic Russians of Donbass and Crimea want in with Russia.




ModernDiogenes said:
It’s no different than Poland or Czechoslovakia in the 70’s. They wanted out of the Russian sphere of influence. Ukraine wants not to fall back into it.
Click to expand...


Not all Ukraine. Just the Bandera Ukraine to the west.
 
slick said:
It's less than 80%
Click to expand...

No it wasn't. You asked how an election could be legitimate without some of the most populated oblasts. Even without those oblasts, 80% of Ukraines population lived under Ukrainian administration.

Even if you include the *entire* population of those oblasts voting against Zelensky in 2019, he would still win more votes.
 
Sword 1944 said:
No problem, this map of the Ukrainian 2010 election and share of vote, the last real election in Ukraine, the blue area voted Yanukovych the Donbass and
Click to expand...
anatta said:
there is one gallup poll before the Russian Separatist war that didn't have staying in Ukraine as autonomous as a choice for Donbass The separatists choice were a minority response. However it's my contention had there had been a choice for EITHER autonomy or separation form Kyiv -it would have been that majority rule (combined those choices).

Look at the results of the presidential vote - it's based entirely on geography pre Maidan as well
Click to expand...

This data is:

1) over a decade old and

2) may be leaning but is not specific to the question being asked.
 
slick said:
It's less than 80% around the time of the Kiev Maidan considering that it was not just the breakaway
oblasts that strongly supported Yanu over the EU leaning candidate
IN the last election when Ukraine still numbered Crimea & the Donbass oblasts , Karkiv & Odessa
on the other hand supported the Russian leaning candidate Yanu both by over 70%.
Click to expand...

Once again, you are being dishonest above. That election was in 2010... 25 years ago.

Your above methodology is no different than using the 2008 election of Barrack Obama to describe the US of 2024.

Obama is not running for US president in 2024 and Viktor Yanukovych (living in Russia) is not running for Ukraine president in 2025.

Your alternative reality is as laughable as it is dishonest.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
No it wasn't. You asked how an election could be legitimate without some of the most populated oblasts. Even without those oblasts, 80% of Ukraines population lived under Ukrainian administration.

Even if you include the *entire* population of those oblasts voting against Zelensky in 2019, he would still win more votes.
Click to expand...
'Even if you include the *entire* population of those oblasts voting against Zelensky in 2019, he would still win more votes.'
In 2019 you're spot on. After all Ukraine's Zelenskiy, has signed decrees banning pro-Russian media outlets. The broadcasters
had their licences revoked and are set to stay off the air for the next five years.



Then suspended 11 political parties with links to Russia. ​

Most of the parties affected were small, but one of them, the Opposition Platform for Life, has 44 seats in the 450-seat Ukrainian parliament.
Of course the situation in 2019 looks alot different than it looked in 2010 when Ukraine was still whole with the inclusion of the Donbass & Crimea.

Zelensky's main competition in 2019 came from "Porky" his like minded predecessor. The Russian leaning faction was virtually banned & although
Ukraine, because of that is more united than ever before without the breakaways, IMO if you still consider the breakaways as part of Ukraine you'll
have to concede 2019 election as not technically legitimate.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Once again, you are being dishonest above. That election was in 2010... 25 years ago.

Your above methodology is no different than using the 2008 election of Barrack Obama to describe the US of 2024.

Obama is not running for US president in 2024 and Viktor Yanukovych (living in Russia) is not running for Ukraine president in 2025.

Your alternative reality is as laughable as it is dishonest.
Click to expand...
Try adding correctly before attempting another one of your frail contradictions. 2010 was the last legit election when
all of Ukraines oblasts voted. That was 14 years ago not 25 years ago.
 
ModernDiogenes said:
This data is:

1) over a decade old and

2) may be leaning but is not specific to the question being asked.
Click to expand...
I idnt say the data was still valid. and i was one poll. However if you look at what parts of Ukraine voted overwhelmingly for Yanukovych , you can see the split.. it's geographic. like the war is and like he line the Separatist war broke over
 
Last edited:
Juin said:
There is no such thing as "The Ukrainians". Ukraine is a nation with an ethnic faultline. The Bandera ethnic Ukrainians to the west of Ukraine want out of Russian influence. The ethnic Russians of Donbass and Crimea want in with Russia.







Not all Ukraine. Just the Bandera Ukraine to the west.
Click to expand...
ethnic faultline well describes it.. it's still baked into Uk gepgraphy
 
slick said:
'Even if you include the *entire* population of those oblasts voting against Zelensky in 2019, he would still win more votes.'
In 2019 you're spot on. After all Ukraine's Zelenskiy, has signed decrees banning pro-Russian media outlets. The broadcasters
had their licences revoked and are set to stay off the air for the next five years.



Then suspended 11 political parties with links to Russia.​

Click to expand...

How did Zelensky do this before he took office
 
Jredbaron96 said:
How did Zelensky do this before he took office
Click to expand...

after he took office he proceededwith his un-democratic edics​

​

Ukraine bans pro-Russian TV stations​

1713466001495.jpeg
DW
https://www.dw.com › ukraine-zelenskiy-bans-three-opp...




Feb 3, 2021 — Ukraine's pro-Western president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, has signed decrees banning pro-Russian media outlets. The broadcasters had their ...

Zelenskiy Signs Law Banning Pro-Russian Political Parties ...​

1713466001525.png
Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty
https://www.rferl.org › ukraine-law-bans-pro-russia-parti...




Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy has signed a new law banning pro-Russian political parties.

Missing: outlets. ‎| Show results with: outlets.

Media Bans, Free Speech, and Disinformation in Ukraine​

1713466001551.png
Wilson Center
https://www.wilsoncenter.org › event › media-bans-free-...




... Zelensky administrations have named combatting Russian disinformation a top priority. Recently, President Zelensky signed a decree sanctioning three television ...
 
anatta said:
I idnt say the data was still valid. and i was one poll. However if you look at what parts of Ukraine voted overwhelmingly for Yanukovych , you can see the split.. it's geographic. like the war is and like he line the Separatist war broke over
Click to expand...

Well, given the age if the data and the infamy of Putin and his lack of doing anything that’s not in his interests I’d have to side that it’s not trying to advocate for the interests of eastern Ukrainians that’s what this war of his is about.
 
slick said:

Ukraine bans pro-Russian TV stations​

View attachment 67505010
DW
https://www.dw.com › ukraine-zelenskiy-bans-three-opp...




Feb 3, 2021 — Ukraine's pro-Western president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, has signed decrees banning pro-Russian media outlets. The broadcasters had their ...

Zelenskiy Signs Law Banning Pro-Russian Political Parties ...​

View attachment 67505011
Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty
https://www.rferl.org › ukraine-law-bans-pro-russia-parti...




Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy has signed a new law banning pro-Russian political parties.

Missing: outlets. ‎| Show results with: outlets.

Media Bans, Free Speech, and Disinformation in Ukraine​

View attachment 67505012
Wilson Center
https://www.wilsoncenter.org › event › media-bans-free-...




... Zelensky administrations have named combatting Russian disinformation a top priority. Recently, President Zelensky signed a decree sanctioning three television ...
Click to expand...

2021 was after the 2019 election. I didn't think I would have to explain this.
 
slick said:

after he took office he proceededwith his un-democratic edics​

​

Ukraine bans pro-Russian TV stations​

View attachment 67505010
DW
https://www.dw.com › ukraine-zelenskiy-bans-three-opp...




Feb 3, 2021 — Ukraine's pro-Western president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, has signed decrees banning pro-Russian media outlets. The broadcasters had their ...

Zelenskiy Signs Law Banning Pro-Russian Political Parties ...​

View attachment 67505011
Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty
https://www.rferl.org › ukraine-law-bans-pro-russia-parti...




Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy has signed a new law banning pro-Russian political parties.

Missing: outlets. ‎| Show results with: outlets.

Media Bans, Free Speech, and Disinformation in Ukraine​

View attachment 67505012
Wilson Center
https://www.wilsoncenter.org › event › media-bans-free-...




... Zelensky administrations have named combatting Russian disinformation a top priority. Recently, President Zelensky signed a decree sanctioning three television ...
Click to expand...

Explain your claim.

Kyiv, 1 April 2019 – This Statement of Preliminary Findings and Conclusions is the result of a common
endeavour involving the OSCE Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights (ODIHR), the OSCE
Parliamentary Assembly (OSCE PA), the Parliamentary Assembly of Council of Europe (PACE), the
European Parliament (EP) and the NATO Parliamentary Assembly (NATO PA). The assessment was made to
determine whether the election complied with OSCE commitments, Council of Europe’s and other
international obligations and standards for democratic elections and with national legislation.
 
ModernDiogenes said:
Well, given the age if the data and the infamy of Putin and his lack of doing anything that’s not in his interests I’d have to side that it’s not trying to advocate for the interests of eastern Ukrainians that’s what this war of his is about.
Click to expand...
what? I cant follow that run on. -except everyone works in their own interest.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
2021 was after the 2019 election. I didn't think I would have to explain this.
Click to expand...
like I posted in 2019 you were spot on & in 2021 you were entirely spot on. Everyone knew in the 2019 election that the small remnants
of Russian influenced candidates would be eventually banished after the election.

After all, of the 3 leading candidates in 2019 as 'Fleds' last post revealed
'2 campaigned actively, holding campaign events around the country. President Petro Poroshenko and YuliaTymoshenko were most active, with the incumbent touring the country extensively in his official capacity.The incumbent’s public appearances blurred the line between his official position and his standing as acandidate, challenging paragraph 5.4 of the 1990 OSCE Copenhagen Document. Volodymyr Zelenskyi did not conduct a single traditional campaign rally, relying instead on his appearances as an actor and comedian.

All three were more than just determined to banish all influence of Russia in Ukraine politics - the 3 were like 3 peas in a pod. Z accomplished
what the other two would have done as victors.
 
slick said:
like I posted in 2019 you were spot on & in 2021 you were entirely spot on. Everyone knew in the 2019 election that the small remnants
of Russian influenced candidates would be eventually banished after the election.
Click to expand...

So, not only does this actually disprove what I said, you are effectively acknowledging my point that the 2019 election can in fact be considered legitimate because the vast majority of Ukrainians were able to vote, and they overwhelmingly voted for someone who would preserve their society from Russian encroachment.
 
slick said:
like I posted in 2019 you were spot on & in 2021 you were entirely spot on. Everyone knew in the 2019 election that the small remnants
of Russian influenced candidates would be eventually banished after the election.

After all, of the 3 leading candidates in 2019 as 'Fleds' last post revealed
'2 campaigned actively, holding campaign events around the country. President Petro Poroshenko and YuliaTymoshenko were most active, with the incumbent touring the country extensively in his official capacity.The incumbent’s public appearances blurred the line between his official position and his standing as acandidate, challenging paragraph 5.4 of the 1990 OSCE Copenhagen Document. Volodymyr Zelenskyi did not conduct a single traditional campaign rally, relying instead on his appearances as an actor and comedian.

All three were more than just determined to banish all influence of Russia in Ukraine politics - the 3 were like 3 peas in a pod. Z accomplished
what the other two would have done as victors.
Click to expand...

Kyiv, 1 April 2019 – This Statement of Preliminary Findings and Conclusions is the result of a common
endeavour involving the OSCE Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights (ODIHR), the OSCE
Parliamentary Assembly (OSCE PA), the Parliamentary Assembly of Council of Europe (PACE), the
European Parliament (EP) and the NATO Parliamentary Assembly (NATO PA). The assessment was made to
determine whether the election complied with OSCE commitments, Council of Europe’s and other
international obligations and standards for democratic elections and with national legislation.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom