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In God We Divide?

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ltb said:
You know, you have a vested interest in believing the lies you are perpetuating and you will never admit you are wrong. I’ve already conceded that I was wrong about Jefferson being a true Christian and I don’t even know why you brought it up again. Whereas I have demonstrated a willingness to have the truth revealed, even if it means admitting I’m wrong, you refuse the truth by changing the argument, re-arguing points that have already been conceded and attacking the credibility of educated men with much more integrity than you could ever hope to have.

Yes, I will continue to believe what I believe, because it is the truth. You, on the other hand, will continue to believe what you believe, because you know in the darkest recesses of your mind that if you’re wrong, you’re pretty much screwed eternally. I’m telling you from one human being to another, you are going to regret believing the lies that you cling to out of desperation. If asking you to not believe these lies is too much, I would plead that you at least not try to drag others down with you. That is despicable.
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My wonderful Christian brother, thank you for the kind words. I can actually feel the Christian love you project. My day has brightened just from reading your post. Seriously though, even though you presume to possess the power damn me to hell, I am not mad at you. This is because, like Thomas Jefferson, I believe Jesus was right as far as his moral values, and so I should forgive you (even though, like Jefferson, I believe Jesus was only a man).

I did explain to you earlier that I am not trying to change or convert you or anybody else here who is religious. I'm not dragging anybody anywhere. The arguments I made about Thomas Jefferson were made because you said all the Founding Fathers were Christian. Since I knew this to be false, I argued with it because that's what you do on this site. I didn't argue that there was no God or Jesus, and I didn't demean them. When I did make derogatory remarks, they were directed toward you personally, because I usually respond in kind when arguing, and you are a real wise asss so it seemed appropriate.

Anyway, you posted new information in the last post I responded to which appeared to show a further attempt to tie Jefferson to Christianity. And, here's the thing, the info is again from David Barton who is not taken seriously by many religious and non-religious people alike because he publishes books with misquotes and plain old lies in the text. Fred Flash, who is a Christian (correct me if I'm wrong) has posted some examples of it on this page, and some of us have shown Barton wrong earlier on this thread. He publishes untrue information because his agenda is much more important to him than the truth. Funny you insist on using his books for reference for some reason, when there is so much other accurate information available that you can post.
 
What does it matter what Thomas Jefferson's religion was? The only one a man has to account to for his religion, is God.

 The American people did not adopt Thomas Jefferson's religion as a legal frame for the Federal Government. Instead, they ordained and established the U. S. Constitution for themselves and their posterity. They declared it the supreme law of the land. They made it a limited government. They defined its authority. They restrained it to the exercise of certain powers, and reserved all others to the states or to the people. They granted the U. S. Government no authority whatsoever over their religion. As James Madison so famously said on June 12, 1788 speaking to delegates of the Virginia Constitutional ratifying convention, responding to Patrick Henry's assertion that freedom of religion was not secured in the proposed Constitution,

"There is not a shadow of right in the general government to intermeddle with religion. Its least interference with it would be a most flagrant usurpation."

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Critics, therefore, would be particularly troubled by President Jefferson’s words that:
No nation has ever existed or been governed without religion. Nor can be. The Christian religion is the best religion that has been given to man and I, as Chief Magistrate of this nation, am bound to give it the sanction of my example. [16]​
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NOTES:
[16] Hutson (see n. 8) at p. 96, quoting from a handwritten history in possession of the Library of Congress, “Washington Parish, Washington City,” by Rev. Ethan Allen.
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Spurious Quotes

Thomas Jefferson once noted, "So many persons have of late found an interest or a passion gratified by imputing to me sayings and writings which I never said or wrote..." (TJ to Alexander White, 10 September 1797). More than two hundred years later, Jefferson is of course not here to correct any wrongful "imputations," but we are. Please take advantage of our years of debunking spurious Jefferson quotes, and read on for information on some of the most frequent and recent troublemakers...
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Unconfirmed Quotes

There are a number of quotes that we do not find in Thomas Jefferson's correspondence or other writings; in such cases, Jefferson should not be cited as the source. They include the following:

"Sir, no nation has ever yet existed or been governed without religion. Nor can be. The Christian religion is the best religion that has been given to man, and I as chief magistrate of this nation am bound to give it the sanction of my example."

​
This is a sticky one, since Jefferson was supposedly overheard saying this, rather than having written it. If there is no potential written record, it makes our job quite a bit harder, but we have some clues in this case. This quote appeared in Historical Sketch of Washington Parish, Washington City, 1794-1857, by Reverend Ethan Allen (1796-1897). The original quote is as follows:

"Mr. J.P. Ingle says in his note of July 6, 1857, "Mr. Underwood and myself can both recollect that Mr. McCormick held service in a Tobacco House as early in 1803 when Mr. Jefferson attended there. The old Market which stood on the NW corner of the Virginia & New Jersey Avenues was often pointed out as the place also where Mr. McCormick officiated. Was the tobacco house near this? Here it was that Mr. Jefferson was coming one Sunday morning across the fields leading to it with his large red Prayer Book under his arm when a friend riding him after their mutual good morning said which way are you walking Mr. Jefferson - to which he replied to Church Sir - you going to church Mr. Jefferson? You do not believe a word in it - Sir said Mr. Jefferson no nation has yet existed or been governed without religion - nor can be - the Christian religion is the best religion that has been given to man & I as the chief magistrate of this nation am bound to give it the sanction of my example. Good morning Sir."

The person who supposedly heard Jefferson is not clearly identified. Was it Mr. Englewood or Mr. Underwood or "a friend" or someone else? It appears that Mr. Jefferson supposedly made the statement to "a friend" whose identity is not provided.

Reverend Allen would have been a child at the time this statement was supposedly uttered, and the anecdote actually came to the Reverend through the filter of several other people: From Jefferson to an unidentified friend to Mr. Englewood/Underwood to Mr. J.P. Ingle to Reverend Allen. The quote is fifth hand hearsay. We are very skeptical of its authenticity.

Jefferson Library: A Guide to Thomas Jefferson Quotations: Spurious Quotes
 
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Re: ...

FredFlash said:
Spurious Quotes

Thomas Jefferson once noted, "So many persons have of late found an interest or a passion gratified by imputing to me sayings and writings which I never said or wrote..." (TJ to Alexander White, 10 September 1797). More than two hundred years later, Jefferson is of course not here to correct any wrongful "imputations," but we are. Please take advantage of our years of debunking spurious Jefferson quotes, and read on for information on some of the most frequent and recent troublemakers...
subpage_horizdivideline.gif

Unconfirmed Quotes

There are a number of quotes that we do not find in Thomas Jefferson's correspondence or other writings; in such cases, Jefferson should not be cited as the source. They include the following:

"Sir, no nation has ever yet existed or been governed without religion. Nor can be. The Christian religion is the best religion that has been given to man, and I as chief magistrate of this nation am bound to give it the sanction of my example."

​
This is a sticky one, since Jefferson was supposedly overheard saying this, rather than having written it. If there is no potential written record, it makes our job quite a bit harder, but we have some clues in this case. This quote appeared in Historical Sketch of Washington Parish, Washington City, 1794-1857, by Reverend Ethan Allen (1796-1897). The original quote is as follows:

"Mr. J.P. Ingle says in his note of July 6, 1857, "Mr. Underwood and myself can both recollect that Mr. McCormick held service in a Tobacco House as early in 1803 when Mr. Jefferson attended there. The old Market which stood on the NW corner of the Virginia & New Jersey Avenues was often pointed out as the place also where Mr. McCormick officiated. Was the tobacco house near this? Here it was that Mr. Jefferson was coming one Sunday morning across the fields leading to it with his large red Prayer Book under his arm when a friend riding him after their mutual good morning said which way are you walking Mr. Jefferson - to which he replied to Church Sir - you going to church Mr. Jefferson? You do not believe a word in it - Sir said Mr. Jefferson no nation has yet existed or been governed without religion - nor can be - the Christian religion is the best religion that has been given to man & I as the chief magistrate of this nation am bound to give it the sanction of my example. Good morning Sir."

The person who supposedly heard Jefferson is not clearly identified. Was it Mr. Englewood or Mr. Underwood or "a friend" or someone else? It appears that Mr. Jefferson supposedly made the statement to "a friend" whose identity is not provided.

Reverend Allen would have been a child at the time this statement was supposedly uttered, and the anecdote actually came to the Reverend through the filter of several other people: From Jefferson to an unidentified friend to Mr. Englewood/Underwood to Mr. J.P. Ingle to Reverend Allen. The quote is fifth hand hearsay. We are very skeptical of its authenticity.

Jefferson Library: A Guide to Thomas Jefferson Quotations: Spurious Quotes
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The Monticello site is good for research on Jefferson, and there are a few others including the Library of Congress's site where one can view Jefferson's actual documents first hand:

The Thomas Jefferson Papers
American Memory from the Library of Congress - Browse by
 
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