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I'm speechless... I really don't know what else to say [W:16,44]

Originally Posted by tosca1 View Post

Girls, have confidence in the knowledge that you always have that power over men when it comes to sex.
You have the power to give it, or withhold it.

Despite what some feminist morons will have you believe - we don't become dumbstruck, and mesmerized by the mere sight of a waving penis.

We aren't turned into lust-filled, senseless bimbos whenever a man drops his pants!

It takes some will power to refrain from something you want to do but you know you mustn't do.
Contrary to what some feminist morons would have others think about us - we are capable of thinking, and we can easily exercise our common sense.

Restraint. Self-Discipline. Will POWER. It takes a strong person to wield that - regardless of gender!

Show your power.




Let me add.....

...contrary to what some people will have you think - you're strong enough to bear the unpleasant side effects of pregnancy. There is such a thing called, "pre-natal care" which also include helping mothers cope with all those sorts of things.


If you're one of the few cases that really have all the awful side-effects, the good old proverbial advice - keep a stiff upper lip, grin and bear it - comes in handy. That's part of life. Countless mothers had gone through that.

If you survive that, you'll survive anything!

And from a lot of testimonies from other mothers - you'll love and cherish your offspring all the more for it - since you've experienced and bore so much just to have him.

We're not made of china. We are stronger than we look.


Don't listen to all these wimps, and fearmongers! Their rationale is based on ignorance.
They're the ones who'll tend to fall apart if and when they break a nail. They're the reason why we women get such a bad rap! :lol:


Let me add some more....

Nothing in life is 100% risk-free.

Having said that, contrary to what misguided people would have you believe, the few cases of failed contraceptives doesn't warrant or justify legally declaring an open-season to kill humans.

We've seen that evil before. From Hitler to Pol Pot...... to all the "cleansing" slaughter we see in other hellish countries.
 
1. Nope, not interested in pregnancy, childbirth, or motherhood. I'll continue to take BC to avoid the unwanted outcome of pregnancy to the best of my ability, and abort if for any reason my BC fails.

2. And since I DON'T want to be a mother, EVER, what "other mothers have gone through" doesn't matter to me.

3. Yeah, keep telling yourself that. There are many women who deeply REGRET having children, contrary to what anti-choice extremists want to believe. Try doing a Google search on women who regret having kids sometime.

Murder on
 
Let me add some more....Nothing in life is 100% risk-free.

Having said that, contrary to what misguided people would have you believe, the few cases of failed contraceptives doesn't warrant or justify legally declaring an open-season to kill humans.

Add whatever you want. "I don't want to be pregnant" is still a valid enough reason for a woman to choose abortion. And she doesn't have to explain or "justify" her decision to you or anyone else.

Not YOUR pregnancy? Not your decision. Period.
 
The death of Tonya Reaves is not the argument for banning abortion.
It's just one of the arguments for banning abortion.


Arguments for banning abortion abound. ....

Banning abortions, will not stop abortions from happening. In fact banning abortions usually increases the number abortions.

The Religious Coliation of Reproductive Choice has worked hard trying to make contraceptives and comprehensive sex education more accessible to all and to keep abortions within the parameters of Roe v Wade legal.

They know that banning abortions would just lead to more abortions and that illegal abortions are often more dangerous for the woman than legal ones.

In last few few years the numbers of abortions in the US has gone down from 1.2 million to under a million.

Now that conception is avaible with no co-pay to women who have health insurance ( another goal that the RCRC pushed hard for )
The numbers should be even more in the next few years.

From this article:
LONDON -- Abortion rates are higher in countries where the procedure is illegal and nearly half of all abortions worldwide are unsafe, with the vast majority in developing countries, a new study concludes.

Experts couldn't say whether more liberal laws led to fewer procedures, but said good access to birth control in those countries resulted in fewer unwanted pregnancies.

Abortion Rates Are Higher In Countries Where Procedure Is Illegal, Study Finds
 
Let me add some more....
No, no, no, the proper wording would be "ad one", because as of yet you have not posted anything rational, relevant or intelligent. The emotional hysteria you are spouting is not an argument but meaningless drivel.
 
Just comes to mind that 70's feminist movement theme song,

"I am woman, hear me roar...."

What a joke that turns out to be when you read all these pro-choice viewpoints. They can't even meow....and they talk about roarin?

They all admittedly see women as weak. And endorses cowardice.

"MY CHOICE," they scream....and in the face of their own mistake and negligence - by THEIR OWN CHOICE - they turn around and throw their babies under the bus! :lol:




Strength doesn't lie in numbers.....but in how a woman faces the challenge, bravely tackles the responsibility,
and comes out swinging!


That's the girl!



In the face of all these pro-choice propaganda, today's song for every woman who finds herself pregnant would be.....

.......YOU AND ME AGAINST THE WORLD.
 
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Pro choice supports the woman no matter which choice she makes.

And least pro life people forget/ignore the fact ...the woman chooses to try to continue her pregnancy and give birth the majority of the time.
 
This is the second thread in this section of the forum I've participated in. I read all the posts in the first one before I commented. This time, I read only some of them.

I don't think I'll be reading any more of them. There doesn't seem to be much to be gained from the debate. I'm sure those who are active in discussing this controversial issue feel differently.

I should say that there is indeed some material worth going over. The stuff about the effectiveness of contraception and the risks involved in pregnancy and in ending a pregnancy. But beyond that, I don't see much going on other than an effort to shame and mock those who support reproductive freedom.

Don't listen to all these wimps, and fearmongers! Their rationale is based on ignorance.

I've read a number of yer posts in this thread. I was surprised to see that yer a woman. In my experience, the ignorant, callous views yer expressing have come only from men.
 
Even though I don't necessarily agree with all that she has said or the ways in which she's said it, I don't think that what Tosca has said is ignorant or callous.

I do think that regarding your own fetus/unborn child/product of conception as disposable is pretty callous, though.
 
Prompting and "conditioning" the minds of young teens it's okay killing her child - that it's no more than removing a wart - just so she can continue her life without any interruption.....you find that reflective, practical statement, ignorant?


Just shows you how much thinking pro-choice people poured into their cause. With total disregard not only for
human life, but for society as a whole.

You think there's no impact at all with that kind of self-serving, self-absorbed examples you pro-choice give to our youth?

If you can stomach killing an innocent, defenseless human, and goad mothers to do it without having to feel anything for their own offsprings - what signals are you sending our youth?


If this kind of mentality is the majority......we are indeed, a psychopathic society.

Like I said, what an ignorant thing to say. Perhaps you should spend less time getting so hyper and more time actually listening to pro choicers and paying attention to what they say.....
 
Even though I don't necessarily agree with all that she has said or the ways in which she's said it, I don't think that what Tosca has said is ignorant or callous.

I do think that regarding your own fetus/unborn child/product of conception as disposable is pretty callous, though.

I think wanting to force women to gestate and give birth against their will is extremely callous.
 
I don't think that what Tosca has said is ignorant or callous.

I'm reluctant to use language like that, and it was not my intention to be insulting or inflammatory.

tosca1 has said that she understands that even careful use of contraception provides no guarantee to avoid pregnancy. But if it doesn't work, then "face the piper! She knew the risk....yet she took it anyway. Face that responsibility. Deliver the baby and give it up for adoption!"

I imagine that being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term, and then perhaps having no realistic option other than adoption, is something that many women would find extremely difficult to endure. Rather than looking at this as a political issue, I see it in personal terms. How would I feel if that scenario were forced on my sister? Would I feel that the government had gone well beyond the acceptable limits to its power in that coercive demand? Yeah, I sure think I would. How is that consistent with the idea of conservatism and limited government?

tosca1 continues with the view that "in the face of their own mistake and negligence - by THEIR OWN CHOICE - they turn around and throw their babies under the bus! :lol:"

So is contraception 100% effective or not? Where is the "mistake and negligence"? Perhaps I should have said "inconsistent" rather than "ignorant."

>>I do think that regarding your own fetus/unborn child/product of conception as disposable is pretty callous, though.

Why the use of "disposable"? This has a connotation suggesting that a decision to medically end a pregnancy is made quite easily, even frivolously. Perhaps selfishly and cruelly.

I came to the view that tosca1 is being callous not because she opposes abortion, but because of her repeated use of smilies that mock the views of those who disagree with her, like the "laughing" smiley added to the idea that "they turn around and throw their babies under the bus!" If a lady that I am extremely fond of came to the difficult decision to end a pregnancy, I wouldn't want her treated this way, as someone who is willfully degenerate, an unprincipled miscreant who selfishly destroys another human being. If you oppose abortion, I can understand that. But to ridicule and vilify those who disagree with you is unacceptable in my view.
 
Pro choice supports the woman no matter which choice she makes.

And least pro life people forget/ignore the fact ...the woman chooses to try to continue her pregnancy and give birth the majority of the time.

The funny thing is that it is conveniently forgotten that most prochoice women chose "no".
 
Attacking is not the right word, it is the body of the woman that attacks the fetus because it has different DNA to her dna. If someone gets a transplant the body can reject it, with pregnancy the body of the mother can reject it (one of the causes for spontaneous abortion) so to prevent that the body's immune system is altered/in some ways compromised to make sure the zygote/embryo/fetus is not outright rejected by the womb. This change in the immune system does though increase the risk of the mother getting sick to some extend (not an across the board susceptibility but one only for some risks to a mother's health).

Actually, I agree with everything you posted in the post that contains this statement except this statement.

The placental mammalian embryo/fetus does "attack" the immune system of the female in pregnancy. At the stage of the blastocyst implanting into the endometrial wall, the blastocyst forms the embryo and the placenta. For the placenta, it uses some of the female's endometrial tissue, too, so that the placental DNA at the attachment is hers and is only alien on the larger side attached to the embryo. The presence of the placenta+embryo causes some immune system attack T-cell apoptosis or cell death locally in the female.

Attack T-cells and blood complement are key means of the immune system in fighting off viruses and infections. They do not attack all alien DNA, for an organism contains some bacteria good for the health, e.g., in the digestive tract, but to what the immune system interprets as threats to the health of the female organism.

The placenta on its embryo side uses a cloaking device like that of parasitic nematodes or roundworms, neurokinin B (NKB) with phosphocoline, to cloak the difference in DNA from certain of the female's immune attack T-cells, which treat the alien DNA of placenta and embryo as a threat, but the cloak is not perfect.

The embryo causes the placenta to produce the enzyme indoleamine 2, 3-dioxygenase, which catabolizes (negatively metabolizes) the L-tryptophan, an essential amino acid, in the female body locally. The immune attack T-cells at issue require L-tryptophan to live, function and reproduce, so the placenta, in effect, starves them locally, forcing them into a state of latency, so they can no longer function to fight off viruses/infections or reproduce.

The blood complement of pregnant females continues to attack the placenta+embryo when these attack T-cells no longer do so, though not very effectively.

Also, in experiments with pregnant mice, chemical agents to counter the embryo-caused placental production of indoleamine 2, 3-dioxygenase were experimentally injected into the placenta. This caused spontaneous abortion in all pregnant females except where the embryo resulted from identical twin line inbreeding.

Thus, the enzyme production which starves these attack T-cells in the female (in humans and other placental mammals as well as mice) is a key element in the continuation of a pregnancy.

Morning sickness is usually considered a response to the partial disablement of the immune system, regurgitation serving as a mechanism of protection against potential threats of viruses/infections from intake of food.

Some doctors have noted that women with medical histories of extremely good health, e.g., never having so much as a cold or flu, have considerable difficulty getting pregnant, presumably because their immune systems are stronger and thus resistant.

So regardless of the claim in the CDC document that "pregnant women are not immunosuppressed in the classic sense," the notion that pregnancy is "normal" and "healthy" is strange.

The embryo does "attack" the pregnant woman, as it does in all placental mammals. It is the underlying cause of some key immune system cells dying and being starved so that they cannot serve their "normal" function of protecting the woman from viruses and infections.

The woman's body is defending itself against a prior attack effected by the embryo.
 
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What is so disgusting about pro-choice - especially when the previous poster laid out what he thinks are "valid" reasons enough to kill another human - is the fact that they'd rather kill than sacrifice 9 months to deliver the child!

There is nothing said about taking responsibility for one's actions, or remorse.

Pregnancy this days is so preventable! There shouldn't be any need for abortion!



When we really look at the collective mentality of those who champion abortion, this kind of coldness towards the killing of human lives is actually.......scary.

Refusing to extend the life span of an embryo that is incapable of developing into a future child by refusing to make a serious biological sacrifice of one's own body is not killing a child.

All forms of contraception are imperfect, resulting in some accidental pregnancies.

Girls and women can be raped by men and become pregnant with rape embryos.

Some pregnant women have ectopic pregnancies, other types of pregnancies that threaten their lives, severe health problems because of their pregnancies, or incomplete miscarriages that threaten their well-being.

So there will always be a need for abortion.

A person who fails to recognize all this - and particularly a woman - is what is really scary.
 
Don't give me that crap about celibacy! :roll:

BOY! Are you saying we're wasting our money funding for sex education?

You used contraceptives, didn't you? And you're proud of the fact that you didn't get pregnant because of it! You are a walking proof that contraceptives work! AS LONG AS YOU MAKE SURE YOU USE THEM - like you did!


Bottom line: The woman had the choice all along not to get pregnant! Everything you need to prevent pregnancy is available!

Once you'd created a human - due to your own negligence - you shouldn't have the right to kill him!
Carry him to terms and give him up for adoption, if you don't want him. You should face the consequence of your negligent action.

There is no valid reason to kill another human - what more if it's purely for WANTON REASON such as
SELF-INDULGEMENT!



Are we becoming a psychopathic society?

Actually, if all women who did not want pregnancy simply said no to guys who wanted sex, this society could become psychopathic.

A major purpose of sexual intercourse is giving and receiving sexual pleasure for the purpose of generating and deepening social intimacy and developing and deepening social bonding between the participants. Unless this is undertaken for some lengthy period of time, most marriages will fall apart even if children result.

And many people who never undertake this can become seriously psychologically frustrated. Particularly those with the excess testosterone characterizing masculinity can become irritated and angry and project that outward on society.

So frankly, women who agree to have sex with men without consenting to pregnancy are doing society a great big favor.

That you cast that as mere self-indulgence suggests that you have never lived with a man and seen how just saying yes to sexual intercourse but no to pregnancy can result in many things for that guy's mental and emotional health and his temper.

And FYI, a girl or woman who is raped may get pregnant. Tell me again how every woman had the choice not to get pregnant. Why should an 11 year old girl who doesn't say yes to sex have to use hormonal contraception that can screw up her own biology in order to be safe from having to endure a pregnancy and childbirth that can permanently harm her health?

And explain to me why a woman who wanted to get pregnant but has an ectopic pregnancy or some other threat to her life or health because of pregnancy should just drop dead or be permanently crippled and incapable of even self-support just because of your absolutely false belief that an embryo is already a live human being?
 
About 700 women die every year from pregnancy/ childbirth complications.

In 2008 the CDC recorded 12 deaths related to induced abortion. ( the latest date that CDC stats are availible online ).

How is the data collected for abortion stats ?

From the CDC website:



Read more:

Abortion Surveillance --- United States, 2008

Yes, and in fact, there are actually more deaths because of complications in childbirth than are reported because the reporting for deaths in childbirth is varied by state and can be fudged very easily.

If you die of a heart attack or stroke during labor/childbirth or die postpartum of an infection contracted during childbirth, it is likely in various states that the cause of death will merely be reported as heart attack, stroke, or infection, without childbirth ever being mentioned. FYI, childbirth heart attacks are one reason why heart attack death is as common in women, especially younger women, as it is.
 
Makes you wonder why leading countries such as ours (USA and Canada) couldn't have accurate stats on abortion!

In the US, states can have different laws on reporting regulations for reporting the number of abortions and deaths/serious health complications due to abortion and for reporting death/serious health complications due to childbirth.

In general, states require more careful reporting related to abortion than to death/complications due to childbirth because of the anti-abortion lobby's demands. So if the current stats err, they err on the side of making childbirth seem safer than it actually is.
 
You've heard wrong.

Just in case you complain that the writer from that article is a pro-lifer...here, brother, straight from stats Canada.

Between 1988 and 2005, almost two million babies lost their lives to abortion. The recorded total from Statistics Canada is 1,811,707, a partial record which excludes roughly 10% of the actual number of abortions performed between 2000 and 2005, due to incomplete reporting. After 1997 the number of reported abortions gradually dropped back down to 96,815 in 2005.

Because the 1988 court decision also struck down reporting requirements, it is difficult to know how accurate the figures are.


Annual Abortion Rates | Abortion in Canada

Anyone who says "almost two million babies lost their lives to abortion" IS a pro-lifer. No pro-choice person I have ever met considers an embryo or fetus "a baby" and none that I have met would be willing to use this word choice in reporting statistics.

So whatever individual wrote this section of text in purple (at least on my computer) is clearly a pro-lifer even if he or she works for the government.
 
Just comes to mind that 70's feminist movement theme song,

"I am woman, hear me roar...."

What a joke that turns out to be when you read all these pro-choice viewpoints. They can't even meow....and they talk about roarin?

They all admittedly see women as weak. And endorses cowardice.

"MY CHOICE," they scream....and in the face of their own mistake and negligence - by THEIR OWN CHOICE - they turn around and throw their babies under the bus! :lol:




Strength doesn't lie in numbers.....but in how a woman faces the challenge, bravely tackles the responsibility,
and comes out swinging!


That's the girl!



In the face of all these pro-choice propaganda, today's song for every woman who finds herself pregnant would be.....

.......YOU AND ME AGAINST THE WORLD.

Let me explain what a genuine feminist is. That is a person who happens to be a woman and protects her own personhood and that of other born individuals who happen to be women on the grounds that persons are equal and should have equal rights regardless of gender. And if persons who happen to be men have the right to have sex without experiencing biological pregnancy in their own bodies, then persons who happen to be women should have the same right.

Your "I am woman, hear me roar" is all about women who are willing to sacrifice their personhood and that of other persons who happen to be women in order to celebrate being female as superior to being male. That's just a new twist on premodern misogyny and always has been. Being a person is just plain more important than whatever gender one is. That's why the law recognizes the rights of persons, not genders.
 
Anyone who says "almost two million babies lost their lives to abortion" IS a pro-lifer. No pro-choice person I have ever met considers an embryo or fetus "a baby" and none that I have met would be willing to use this word choice in reporting statistics.

So whatever individual wrote this section of text in purple (at least on my computer) is clearly a pro-lifer even if he or she works for the government.

That's not a Stats Can site, it's an anti choice site. The SC site is at Statistics Canada: Canada's national statistical agency
 
But beyond that, I don't see much going on other than an effort to shame and mock those who support reproductive freedom.

Pro-choice deserves all the mockings. And rightly so, it should be shamed.

Your so-called reproductive freedom stands on another human's rights! You're a tad too late when your so-called freedom means pain and death to another!

All the choices you have should've happened BEFORE you decided to open the gates of heaven. After all, you're the one with the key!



I've read a number of yer posts in this thread. I was surprised to see that yer a woman. In my experience, the ignorant, callous views yer expressing have come only from men.


I have a suspicion you may not know what that word callous means,

Callous
Emotionally hardened; unfeeling
insensitive; indifferent; unsympathetic.

That description falls in your ballpark. It fits pro-choice women to a T.

And you criticize me for being callous? :lol:

Hello? You're the one promoting the killings. Mass murder. What kind of twisted logic is that? :lol:


I'm callous for what? For frankly stating what pro-choice is all about?



That would be like me watching a sadistic murderer determinedly slicing up a child....

.......and I have to be careful that I don't hurt her feelings?

Get real.



Pro-choice advocates are worse. You encourage. You incite. You exploit and confuse vulnerable mothers to commit heinous acts against their own children.

And all pro-choice reasonings are so shallow....they remind me of the movie, "Clueless."


Some of them are even quite smug that they've used contraceptives effectively, and are smugly proud of the fact that they'd never had to resort to abortion - that kind of smugness speaks for itself - loud and clear - how even certain pro-choice women regard abortion!
Of course, some of them may not even realize what they reveal about themselves by what they say.


If you think only men are vocally against abortion, you've got a very limited experience, I suppose....so let this be an eye-opener to you.

Pro-life feminism is the opposition to abortion by a group of feminists who believe that the principles which inform their support of women's rights also call them to support the right to life of prenatal humans. Pro-life feminists believe abortion has served to hurt women more than it has benefited them.
Pro-life feminism is the opposition to abortion by a group of feminists who believe that the principles which inform their support of women's rights also call them to support the right to life of prenatal humans. Pro-life feminists believe abortion has served to hurt women more than it has benefited them.
Prominent American pro-life feminist organizations seek to end abortion in the U.S.
Pro-life feminism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not every anti-abortion belongs to organized groups. I don't. But I'm as deeply involved.
I express myself freely - stating what I see for what it is. Certain things require brutal frankness. Abortion is definitely one of them.

Pro-choice is a shame to all women. It should be.
 
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Dammit, he lied about being speechless. Shouldn't there be a rule against that or something?
 
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