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I'm Pro-Life: Change My Mind

Vadinho said:
I like the concept behind that other sci fi series where you download your mind and then just grab a new body. I watched a few episodes of it, interesting concept.
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You thinking Altered Carbon?
 
Vadinho said:
If they could cut my head off and keep both my head and body alive, which one is the human being?
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Do you realize that you ended up shifting the goal posts? Both will remain human. The question as to which, if either, is a human being, is another matter. I'm with your position that the concepts of person (which might not be limited to human) and being are way to complicated and may have a lot to do with factors other than the physical body.
 
maquiscat said:
Do you realize that you ended up shifting the goal posts? Both will remain human. The question as to which, if either, is a human being, is another matter. I'm with your position that the concepts of person (which might not be limited to human) and being are way to complicated and may have a lot to do with factors other than the physical body.
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OK, so I got you to think about the topic which is very cool and my goal. But lets face it, both are not human beings. How can a thing be a human being without a mind?
 
Overitall said:
I don’t know why most people chose abortion. I imagine you don’t know either unless you’ve spoken to most of them. Is there data that clearly marks the reason? You can cite it if you like.

Long before doctors became readily available women were producing offspring quite well. It helps that they’re now more readily available. The word host assumes the fetus is a parasite. With that viewpoint I wouldn’t call an unborn child a person either. Seeing that that unborn child is still feeding off the woman right on up to full term it’s still a parasite and thinking like that makes it clear why late term (including up to birth) is acceptable.
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And yet if you cannot afford or care for a kid...or your health would suffer...or you'd not be able to properly care for the kids you do have or fulfill your other obligations to others....why not? Why risk your life and all your responsibilities more when there is a safer medical option?

Abortion is 14 times safer than pregnancy​
​
NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - Getting a legal abortion is much safer than giving birth, suggests a new U.S. study published Monday.​
​
Researchers found that women were about 14 times more likely to die during or after giving birth to a live baby than to die from complications of an abortion.​

www.reuters.com

Abortion safer than giving birth: study

Getting a legal abortion is much safer than giving birth, suggests a new U.S. study published Monday.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
 
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Vadinho said:
Notice how non of the pro-lifers even want to contemplate the questions posed by my hypothetical separation of the head from the body where both are kept alive indefinitely. Which one is the human being folks? If you say both are human beings then lets cut away and see how many limbs you can take away before you admit its not a human being now. Headless body less both arms? Are the amputated arms humans too? While this may sound very silly it shows the emptiness of the claims that an embryo at conception is a human being. It is not a human being until at some point the brain develops. Now the real question is when does a developing brain turn into the human being that I would defend deserves to live. I can't answer that one and will not even try because no matter what you say, whatever is true of a 7 month old brain is pretty much the same as a 9 month old brain. I point this out because this topic is far more complicated then what some religious nut tells you. It strikes at the core of the definition of a human being which to be honest has never fully been defined in the modern era.
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Start your own thread then.
 
Vadinho said:
OK, so I got you to think about the topic which is very cool and my goal. But lets face it, both are not human beings. How can a thing be a human being without a mind?
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As I said, both are human, but something human doesn't automatically make it a human being. We could find a skeleton hand, and it might not be visually identifiable. Once we study it we could say it was a human hand or a gorilla hand (probably infant or juvenile). Human just describes something. Could we have beings who are not humans? A canine being? A feline one?

But as I have noted before, such statuses of the ZEF are irrelevant to the issue of the right to have an abortion.
 
Vadinho said:
Uh....does the definition of a primate include how many limbs are still attached to the body?
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Indirectly:

"A primate (/ˈpraɪmeɪt/ (About this soundlisten) PRY-mayt) (from Latin primat-, from primus: "prime, first rank") is a eutherian mammal constituting the taxonomic order Primates (/praɪˈmeɪtiːz/). Primates arose 85–55 million years ago first from small terrestrial mammals, which adapted to living in the trees of tropical forests: many primate characteristics represent adaptations to life in this challenging environment, including large brains, visual acuity, color vision, a shoulder girdle allowing a large degree of movement in the shoulder joint, and dextrous hands.
...

"Some primates, including gorillas, humans, and baboons, are primarily terrestrial rather than arboreal, but all species have adaptations for climbing trees. Arboreal locomotion techniques used include leaping from tree to tree and swinging between branches of trees (brachiation); terrestrial locomotion techniques include walking on two limbs (bipedalism) and modified walking on four limbs (knuckle-walking)."

(My emphasis - more @ Primate - Wikipedia)

Primate characteristics noted include large brains, shoulder joints, hands, leaping, brachiation, walking on two limbs, walking on four limbs. (You also missed the tail in primates with tails.) Once you split off the head from the rest of the body, or the limbs (or tail) from the body, what you have is no longer a viable primate. It's a mutilated primate. Without extensive life support (for decapitation), it will shortly be dead.
 
maquiscat said:
And that is a key element that many on the pro choice side fail to realize. Their right to an abortion doesn't override another person's right to not being an abortion provider. If no one chooses to be an abortion provider, they are SOL, even while retaining their rights. Of course the odds of not a single person choose to be an abortion provider is beyond concept.
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Do you have any proof of that? I have never said a doctor should be forced to do an abortion. No doctor who is opposed to it should be forced into it - in fact, they wouldn't even train in it, so they would not be qualified.

I ran into a doctor refusal in the fall of '19, though not abortion related. I had gone to an appointment for cortisone shots in my knees. I had staph infection in my foot at the time (diabetic). I mentioned it, not thinking it would matter, but it did. He refused to do the cortisone shots. I told him I was willing to take the risk (of it making the infection worse) but he said he wasn't. I had to respect his right to refuse.
 
Nathan.22 said:
I'm Pro-Life: Change My Mind. The reason I am Pro life is because I believe that the termination of an innocent human life is of course horrible and that is a moral stance we all should have, so the question is when does life begin? if we want to determine whether abortions should be illegal or not this is the most important question. Me personally, I believe that life begins at conception which is why I'm pro life. I'm interested in hearing other people's opposing positions. Change My Mind
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Why? Your philosophy works for you. Just don't try making laws that require all people to follow your line of reasoning and your belief.
 
Scrabaholic said:
Do you have any proof of that? I have never said a doctor should be forced to do an abortion. No doctor who is opposed to it should be forced into it - in fact, they wouldn't even train in it, so they would not be qualified.
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Proof of what? That many pro choice people feel that doctors have to do abortions? Auntie Antifa even said as much in her claim that if no one wanted to be certified to do abortions then we should make it a requirement of becoming a doctor.

I certainly never claim that you, or even most pro choice feel this way, but there still are many who do. And I have used the fact that any doctor who doesn't want to do abortions wouldn't bother to get certified for such to combat the argument that doctor shouldn't be allowed to refuse to do abortions due to religious objections.

I fully recognize the fact that it is extremely improbable that no one would get certified to perform abortions, and said as much. I was making a point that the right not to be forced to do something extends to providing abortions as well as maintaining a pregnancy or having an abortion.
 
maquiscat said:
Proof of what? That many pro choice people feel that doctors have to do abortions? Auntie Antifa even said as much in her claim that if no one wanted to be certified to do abortions then we should make it a requirement of becoming a doctor.

I certainly never claim that you, or even most pro choice feel this way, but there still are many who do. And I have used the fact that any doctor who doesn't want to do abortions wouldn't bother to get certified for such to combat the argument that doctor shouldn't be allowed to refuse to do abortions due to religious objections.

I fully recognize the fact that it is extremely improbable that no one would get certified to perform abortions, and said as much. I was making a point that the right not to be forced to do something extends to providing abortions as well as maintaining a pregnancy or having an abortion.
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AA is one person.
 
weaver2 said:
Why? Your philosophy works for you. Just don't try making laws that require all people to follow your line of reasoning and your belief.
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well I could apply that same logic to you?
 
Citizen said:
You have every right to your believes. Your believes is religious and moral, however, you cannot force your beleives on all Americans
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Well I could say the same to the pro choice crowd?
 
Nathan.22 said:
Well I could say the same to the pro choice crowd?
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Of course. Do you not get the point of "choice?"

It means that no woman is forced to have an abortion​
and​
No woman is forced to remain pregnant​

Each woman may act according to her beliefs. Do you understand the basis of the 'choice' position now? Dont you think that it works? If not, why not?
 
Nathan.22 said:
The reason I am Pro life is because I believe that the termination of an innocent human life is of course horrible and that is a moral stance we all should have, so the question is when does life begin? if we want to determine whether abortions should be illegal or not this is the most important question. Me personally, I believe that life begins at conception which is why I'm pro life. I'm interested in hearing other people's opposing positions.
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Why do you want your mind changed. You have an opinion and I respect that.
 
maquiscat said:
Did you miss my response to you? I'm interested to see you take on what I said.
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I think he got an eyeful of the 'other side' that he completely ignored or didnt know before...and now finds himself adrift: he doesnt like what he's learned because it rocks the foundation that his position stands on.

It might help him clarify that position if he came back and actually discussed it...you know, here on a discussion forum.
 
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