If Trump were lying about voter fraud . . .

[calamity]

Fraud compounded with UnConstitutional actions from States like PA all add up. They tilt the scales. No way Biden received the support it appears he did. America isn’t that stupid to elect brain dead corpse with a soon to be VP turned POTUS who was vehemently rejected by its party in the Primaries. She couldn’t handle Gabby and she’s going to stand up to strong type A men? Good luck with that. I look fwd to the whining to come when Beijing Joe makes Americans lives uncomfortable from a momentary perspective. But I won’t pile on and tell you told you so. Oh, and all the Dems and libs in CA that purchased guns in the last year, and there were a bunch. Buying a gun then voting for Biden brings serious questions to the table as they are in direct opposition to one another. Elections do have consequences and all the young entitled blue handle pullers are going to suffer biggly.

Nonsense

 

[less right]

You're confused.

First you say you were paraphrasing bad logic you heard. OK. Then you ask me what I have to prove a lie I oppose, and bring up unrelated things about it being a lie?

"Trump lied" was my premise. You said my premise was wrong. Prove it. Show me the "steal" that Trump's trying to stop.

 

[Hypothetical]

We are living in the Propaganda Era and the issue at hand is not whether Trump was lying or not. The issue is how many people you can get to believe that there was no fraud.

It would be rather simple to expose Trump's lies by merely presenting clear, unambiguous evidence of those lies. That, however, will never be done because doing so would expose the extent of the corruption in our electoral system.

absolutely right.

 

[calamity]

"Trump lied" was my premise. You said my premise was wrong. Prove it. Show me the "steal" that Trump's trying to stop.

Losing at least 61 court cases pretty much proves there is none.

 

[Aunt Antifa]

There was voter fraud. The level is unknown but considered acceptable

It is known though. We heard Trump on the call with the GA SoS trying to rig Georgia.

 

[Luckyone]

What would be different from the current situation
if it were true that Trump were lying about widespread voter fraud / stealing the election?

How would things look then?

What markers can we use to differentiate our current state of affairs from a world where Trump really was lying about widespread voter fraud stealing the election?

Even if you don't respond here,
at least consider this question in the privacy of your own mind.

First of all, let's get one thing straight. Trump IS lying about voter fraud!

If he stopped lying about it, we would be a better nation for it as we would not be as divided as we are now, we would not be as disrespected by everyone in the world as we are now, we would not be as fractured and unable to move forward as we are now, andwe would not be so full of hate as we are now.

I know you will not respond here (I believe you are not man enough to admit your mistakes) but at least consider what I said in the privacy of your own mind.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

You assume too much. It's not just fraud it's illegally changing the election rules. State constitutions lay our the process and several states didn't follow their own rules/laws. That should nullify those votes.

Where in the constitution (state or federal) does it say that would warrant disenfranchisement of voters and why just certain States where Trump lost?

 

[less right]

Losing at least 61 court cases pretty much proves there is none.

That was my argument but apparently I was confused.

 

[Alizia Tyler]

Since virtually everyone here accepts that Trump was lying about voter fraud, I'm not sure who your target audience is.

I view this entire situation differently. I regard it as irresponsible not to, at the least, keep an open mind to the possibility that there was fraud, and that in the absence of fraud that Donald Trump might well have won the presidency.

I have said in other places that I am not necessarily a *Trump supporter*. But what I very definitely AM is a person who can see a Left/Progressive and Democratic Party régime in a process of taking power in the US. I use the word régime as a shorthand for something hard to define and explain.

There has been a relentless 4 year idea- and perception-war against Donald Trump. What this has revealed to me is the depth and the intensity of an imbedded opposition to whatever it is that Donald Trump represents to a very entrenched Power-System. It became apparent that Donald Trump could not be allowed to be elected for a second term. All stops were removed. And the reasons for this extend beyond the borders and politics of the US. This is to say that the Power-System is, as the opponents point out, a global one. The nationalism of Donald Trump, and the chauvinism he inspires, is very much out of keeping with the larger, global plans of those who do indeed have the power and influence to determine events.

This is not 'conspiracy thinking' but (I would hope) a level-headed and accurate description about how power works.

So, no 'evidence' has (yet) been presented though much has been alluded to and talked about. But that does not, to my mind, indicate that voter fraud did not take place. But I base this on an intuition that, for now, must remain an intuition. There is so much opposition to a cool-headed examination of the issue and that opposition tells me something.

The larger picture is that there are really huge power-struggles going on in our present and they are taking shape at a world-level. I think that I accept the assertion that we are in *conditions of war* and that world-war has begun, yet it is a war very different than what we'd imagine war to be. But I do not have enough clear information, or information that I can trust, to develop this idea. And in all areas and in all fields today information and perspective (perception) is intensely fought over. For each assertion there are 100 counter-assertions. The field where information is presented (fields more properly) cannot be relied on. You cannot trust anyone. Because behind every perspective there is a powerful player who manipulates perception since it is in their interest to do so. And that points to the seriousness of the game.

So it seems to me that it became necessary to create a situation in which Donald Trump appears to have fallen into ignominy. This is not to imply that he is a noble personage! But the entire structure of the Story that has been played for 4 years (and longer) had the denouement built into it from the beginning!

But I just do not think this is the end of the story. The battles are not diminishing. The players may come and go. But the Battle goes on and indeed must go on because in the background of all of this are world-level political and economic struggles and 'brutal power games'.

In any case, I certainly recognize that in the story that is presented (the narrative as we say today) everything about the fraud really looks like it had all been dismissed. But that is one of the reasons I think that I must not, not yet, believe it. Again, I have a very cynical view of power.

Our Millennium began, as you may remember, with an Event of such scope and such relevance and impact which has not ever been fully *explained* it seems to me. What happened there? The more that the Event is examined, the less clear it becomes. But the more that one retreats away from it -- from the complications in it -- the more that the Story stands. So the less closely one looks, the more the Official Story seem to have the Explanatory Power. Does this make sense? Yet the fact of the matter is that the Event really did herald a massive power struggle with entirely global implications.

This is the reason why (in my view) we cannot really be certain about much in our present. We have to accept that perception is the field of war.

 

[joko104]

Since virtually everyone here accepts that Trump was lying about voter fraud, I'm not sure who your target audience is.

No, only Democrats believe the MSM when it declares continuously "everyone thinks..." when that is completely false.

President Trump won the election by the legitimate votes and constantly chanting otherwise changes nothing. Nor is it a question of "voter fraud." It is a question of accuracy of the election totals. Trump won the election and Republicans won the House and the Senate.

Even without claiming the vote outcome is inaccurate, the tens of billions of dollars the plutocrats, particularly Big Tech, poured in as criminally illegal campaign contributions to BIden by coverage and censorship also makes it an illegitimate election. It is a criminal offense for any corporate to contribute to any federal candidate. The maximum for an individual is $2800. But Big Tech mega billionaires and corporations contributed BILLIONS in free publicity for Biden and free attack ads against Trump.

Joe Biden did not legitimately become president. This was a criminal coup against democracy and the government by the richest white racist men and corporations on earth.

Oh course, you can keep accepting the ordered delusion by the richest white men on earth to believe everyone agrees with everything they say and do like you do if can't help it.

Many people have little to no independent will power and are mentally lazy so want and others to do their thinking for them.

 

[vegas giants]

There was no voter fraud. Trump simply lost

 

[roughdraft274]

Wow, I had no idea he said all of this in 2012. This is even more proof that he's an idiot who believes conspiracy theories without any evidence.

We're so fortunate we survived these 4 years with a president who is capable of believing complete nonsense. What if someone convinced him that the Chinese were planning a nuclear strike?

No matter how bad his presidency is, there is always, always, always the very real possibility it could have been worse. We are very lucky (so far) to have gotten out of this with simply a cratered economy and 400k deaths and the Russians performing the largest hack on our systems ever.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

I know you will not respond here (I believe you are not man enough to admit your mistakes) but at least consider what I said in the privacy of your own mind.

Is this sarcasm or confusion?

 

[Luckyone]

Is this sarcasm or confusion?

Neither. Just a statement of fact.

 

[Craig234]

"Trump lied" was my premise. You said my premise was wrong. Prove it. Show me the "steal" that Trump's trying to stop.

No, trump lied was not your premise. trump did lie. Your premise was a logical claim that was false. I hate when people are confronted about their error and they then misstate what they'd said. You said that 'if A, then B' proves 'if B, then A'.

 

[Craig234]

I view this entire situation differently. I regard it as irresponsible not to, at the least, keep an open mind to the possibility that there was fraud, and that in the absence of fraud that Donald Trump might well have won the presidency.

Sure. Consider the possibility. Then look at the incredibly clear case that that is false, that trump is a pathological liar who screamed 'rigged' and 'fraud' in 2012, 2016, and 2020, and that all the evidence clearly shows there was no fraud, and the only thing saying there was is trump's mouth and his followers who fall for his lies. Otherwise, Joe Biden is from another planet. It's irresponsible not to keep an open mine to the possibility he is, so obviously he is.

I have said in other places that I am not necessarily a *Trump supporter*. But what I very definitely AM is a person who can see a Left/Progressive and Democratic Party régime in a process of taking power in the US. I use the word régime as a shorthand for something hard to define and explain.

So now, throwing out the word "regime" is an argument? Yes, Democrats were elected by the people and are taking power. That's called 'democracy'.

There has been a relentless 4 year idea- and perception-war against Donald Trump.

Yes, much the way there is a relentless war against 'murder'. It was a war against trump's support for evil and harm, his pathological lying, his sociopathic policies of hate, his corruption. You are trying to say that makes him the victim. Then I guess Hitler was the victim also, meanie allies with their relentless war to not let him take over the world..

What this has revealed to me is the depth and the intensity of an imbedded opposition to whatever it is that Donald Trump represents to a very entrenched Power-System.

trump fought FOR that 'entrenched power system', and lied about it. He'd say how he would raise taxes on the rich who weren't paying their share, and then pass a huge borrowed tax cut for the rich. It wasn't 'whatever', it was trump's constant lies, constant hateful harm, and corruption. It was fighting trump's evil AND the entrenched Power System's wrongs he supported.

It became apparent that Donald Trump could not be allowed to be elected for a second term. All stops were removed.

Yes, in order to stop the huge harm trump was causing and would cause, he needed to be removed, to save our democracy among other things. There were plenty of stops; he was defeated in a fair election, not a coup. He should have been removed for his crimes in impeachment, but Republicans were corrupt. Again, you fall for his lies that he's a victim. He's not. He's a criminal and he's a warrior for evil.

And the reasons for this extend beyond the borders and politics of the US. This is to say that the Power-System is, as the opponents point out, a global one. The nationalism of Donald Trump, and the chauvinism he inspires, is very much out of keeping with the larger, global plans of those who do indeed have the power and influence to determine events.

There is far more than enough to need to defeat trump in our borders and politics. No international conspiracy theory is needed or relevant. Where foreign forces played a role, the largest was Russia committing crimes to help trump.

'Nationalism' and 'chauvinism' mask the problem that they are extreme. Democrats support the country. That doesn't need extremism like banning groups of people there is prejudice against, or trying to pay for all of the vaccines to go to the US instead of everyone getting some. You are promoting conspiracy theories of foreign powers secretly ruling the US. It's other countries who have that from the US secretly ruling them.

This is not 'conspiracy thinking' but (I would hope) a level-headed and accurate description about how power works.

I typed the above before seeing this sentence, but you see my answer. It's not even close to level-headed nor explaining anything.

So, no 'evidence' has (yet) been presented though much has been alluded to and talked about. But that does not, to my mind, indicate that voter fraud did not take place. But I base this on an intuition that, for now, must remain an intuition. There is so much opposition to a cool-headed examination of the issue and that opposition tells me something.

Again, ok, but then follow the evidence and recognize it's a lie. The opposition should tell you that people can do that and are reacting to a lie being a lie. At least you know that no evidence has been presented, though you add the 'yet' showing you are being a sucker for a lie.

 

[Craig234]

The larger picture is that there are really huge power-struggles going on in our present and they are taking shape at a world-level. I think that I accept the assertion that we are in *conditions of war* and that world-war has begun, yet it is a war very different than what we'd imagine war to be. But I do not have enough clear information, or information that I can trust, to develop this idea. And in all areas and in all fields today information and perspective (perception) is intensely fought over. For each assertion there are 100 counter-assertions.

OK, and those conflicts have almost nothing to do with trump being a corrupt, sociopathic, narcissistic liar. Thank goodness he's out of office if we do have such conflicts going on. There are big issues, such as the growth of China's power and the corruption of Saudi Arabi, and it's hugely irresponsible for trump to be in office. 'War' isn't a word to throw around, but there are always conflicts and challenges, and trump can't handle them at all.

The field where information is presented (fields more properly) cannot be relied on. You cannot trust anyone. Because behind every perspective there is a powerful player who manipulates perception since it is in their interest to do so. And that points to the seriousness of the game.

You can trust some. But one of our country's biggest problems is that there is that propaganda war to mislead Americans, by right-wing interests, who want their loyalty to elect their stooges who will serve them. You are pretty clearly fooled by some of that propaganda.

So it seems to me that it became necessary to create a situation in which Donald Trump appears to have fallen into ignominy. This is not to imply that he is a noble personage! But the entire structure of the Story that has been played for 4 years (and longer) had the denouement built into it from the beginning!

It was donald trump who created his ignominy. As I say over and over, you try to paint him as a victim falsely. He's been a monster for a long time, and that's the problem, not his critics.

But I just do not think this is the end of the story. The battles are not diminishing. The players may come and go. But the Battle goes on and indeed must go on because in the background of all of this are world-level political and economic struggles and 'brutal power games'.

Again, which have close to nothing with trump. trump is a criminal; there are conflicts with China. Those are not the same issue.

In any case, I certainly recognize that in the story that is presented (the narrative as we say today) everything about the fraud really looks like it had all been dismissed. But that is one of the reasons I think that I must not, not yet, believe it. Again, I have a very cynical view of power.

Cynicism isn't the problem. Ignorance and craziness is a problem. Being a sucker because the thug trump spews lies fraud fraud fraud is a problem.

Our Millennium began, as you may remember, with an Event of such scope and such relevance and impact which has not ever been fully *explained* it seems to me. What happened there? The more that the Event is examined, the less clear it becomes. But the more that one retreats away from it -- from the complications in it -- the more that the Story stands. So the less closely one looks, the more the Official Story seem to have the Explanatory Power. Does this make sense? Yet the fact of the matter is that the Event really did herald a massive power struggle with entirely global implications.

It's pretty clear. Saudis and extremists targeted the US, opposing how the US was imposing itself in their region. Clinton told Bush Al Queda was the #1 threat to watch; incompetent Bush demoted the anti-terrorism chief, disbanded the Al Queda unit, ended the daily Al Queda briefings, and did nothing to address government issues that prevented identifying the 9/11 attack operation before it happened, and the attack happened.

Then Republicans used the attack to push through massive money for the security industry, a power grab against Americans' rights, and a war on Iraq.

This is the reason why (in my view) we cannot really be certain about much in our present. We have to accept that perception is the field of war.

There's some truth to that, but you are largely defending lies.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Neither. Just a statement of fact.

You earnestly believe that the poster whose tag line literally is "I may be wrong" is somehow afraid to admit erro?

I mean, honest-to-goodness?
You're not just pulling my leg or taking a piss?

 

[jnug]

Quite justified denouncement in the case of Donald Trump. Donald has been creepy his entire life..... creepy, corrupt, narcissistic and racist and entirely debauched by the excess of NY in the late 1970's and 1980's and his entirely corrupt whack job father. Fred was a Real Estate genius by virtue of his incredible attention to detail but he was a very disturbed and disturbing man.

The GOP made their faustian deal with the devil because the other 16 monkeys they had on that debate stage with Donnie in 2016 could not have beaten even the worst candidate I have ever seen run for public office, Hillary. They were that bad. Well you better be happy with a corporate tax break that was too steep, deregulation a bit too aggressive and your conservative judges because the price the GOP and the country is paying for them is quite steep indeed. By the way, if you have not figured it out yet, the Judgeships will turn out to be fools gold.

 

[less right]

No, trump lied was not your premise. trump did lie. Your premise was a logical claim that was false. I hate when people are confronted about their error and they then misstate what they'd said. You said that 'if A, then B' proves 'if B, then A'.

My logic claim was false because of form. The form is not the premise. The premise was correct, Trump lied. Nice talk.

 

[Craig234]

My logic claim was false because of form. The form is not the premise. The premise was correct, Trump lied. Nice talk.

Your logic claim was false because the logic is wrong. That was the topic. The fact that trump lied is not, and you misrepresenting that I said otherwise is false.

 

[Hypothetical]

The only evidence that these "fringe" posters would ever accept of a fair election is a Trump win. Period.

no we would accept a real investigation.

 

[less right]

Your logic claim was false because the logic is wrong. That was the topic. The fact that trump lied is not, and you misrepresenting that I said otherwise is false.

I knew the logic was faulty when I posted it. The premise of the faulty logic was Trump lied.

When you said my premise was faulty you were wrong because my premise was "Trump lied". I didn't misrepresent anything. You mistakenly referred to the "logic" (or lack thereof) as the premise.

 

[Craig234]

When you said my premise was faulty you were wrong because my premise was "Trump lied". I didn't misrepresent anything. You mistakenly referred to the "logic" (or lack thereof) as the premise.

I disagree with you about what the premise was, and whatever it was, you were wrong when you claimed I was denying trump lied. So let's clear up this simple thing. trump lied and as you admit your logic was faulty.

 

[less right]

I disagree with you about what the premise was, and whatever it was, you were wrong when you claimed I was denying trump lied. So let's clear up this simple thing. trump lied and as you admit your logic was faulty.

Upon re-reading your post I can see that you agreed Trump lied. The reason I responded as if you didn't was because you said my premise was faulty. We disagreed on the premise.