If it comes down to Bernie vs Trump

aociswundumho · Feb 6, 2020

One thing that doesn't get talked about much is that Bernie has never really been properly attacked. He has more baggage than Delta airlines, and he gets visibly angry and upset whenever he is questioned about his life-long love affair with Marxism. Trump no doubt will exploit Bernie's past to the fullest extent possible, especially when they debate each other. I think Bernie will end up having a major meltdown, hopefully on live network television.

Helix · Feb 6, 2020

I suppose if things come out about Bernie, the left can follow this deflection strategy :

1. He didn't do it. Fake news.
2. He did it, but it's not illegal.
3. He did it and it's illegal, but so what, but Tweety, looksquirrel, and suck it up, losers!

You know, basically the current Trump supporter strategy. I might have missed a step, but the basic version will work just fine.

Moonglow · Feb 6, 2020

aociswundumho said:
One thing that doesn't get talked about much is that Bernie has never really been properly attacked. He has more baggage than Delta airlines, and he gets visibly angry and upset whenever he is questioned about his life-long love affair with Marxism. Trump no doubt will exploit Bernie's past to the fullest extent possible, especially when they debate each other. I think Bernie will end up having a major meltdown, hopefully on live network television.

Rather biased....No surprise, but you sank yer own thread by being overly biased and myopic...Rah!

Surrealistik · Feb 6, 2020

aociswundumho said:
One thing that doesn't get talked about much is that Bernie has never really been properly attacked. He has more baggage than Delta airlines, and he gets visibly angry and upset whenever he is questioned about his life-long love affair with Marxism. Trump no doubt will exploit Bernie's past to the fullest extent possible, especially when they debate each other. I think Bernie will end up having a major meltdown, hopefully on live network television.

You lead a fascinating fantasy life.

I mean for starters, Sanders has been attacked, and will continue to be attacked as he consolidates his new position as front runner. Moreover, when Bernie gets angry, he doesn't meltdown so much as he goes on the attack and spits substantive barbs on demonstrable policy failings.

To be frank, I don't think anyone much cares that he held socialist views half a century ago in his youth, when on matters of policy and prescription he's been nothing but a North European/Nordic centrist since his late 30s, and has been an ardent champion of civil rights all his life.

I wholly invite Trump to go the way of neo-McCarthyism while Sanders describes how he's going to make life better for Americans, and his opponent will not, and in many ways, has not.

Captain Adverse · Feb 6, 2020

Surrealistik said:
You lead a fascinating fantasy life.

I mean for starters, Sanders has been attacked, and will continue to be attacked as he consolidates his new position as front runner. Moreover, when Bernie gets angry, he doesn't meltdown so much as he goes on the attack and spits substantive barbs on demonstrable policy failings.

To be frank, I don't think anyone much cares that he held socialist views half a century ago in his youth, when on matters of policy and prescription he's been nothing but a North European/Nordic centrist since his late 30s, and has been an ardent champion of civil rights all his life.

I wholly invite Trump to go the way of neo-McCarthyism while Sanders describes how he's going to make life better for Americans, and his opponent will not, and in many ways, has not.

I can agree with some of what you've said, but it all boils down to this. Bernie is a self-declared "socialist."

IMO that means when push comes to shove in November 2020, he will facing absolute opposition from Republican voters, substantial opposition from Independent voters, and some opposition from centrist Democrat voters.

Warren, with her pie in the sky giveaways would face the same thing, only perhaps to a lesser extent as IMO most Democrats recognize her as more of an opportunist who will say almost anything to win votes, and not really "socialist."

iguanaman · Feb 6, 2020

aociswundumho said:
One thing that doesn't get talked about much is that Bernie has never really been properly attacked. He has more baggage than Delta airlines, and he gets visibly angry and upset whenever he is questioned about his life-long love affair with Marxism. Trump no doubt will exploit Bernie's past to the fullest extent possible, especially when they debate each other. I think Bernie will end up having a major meltdown, hopefully on live network television.

Bernie will not get the votes to be nominated. He proved that in 2016 when he lost by over a million votes in the primaries to Hillary. Trump would love Bernie to be his opponent and Putin would too.

Surrealistik · Feb 6, 2020

Captain Adverse said:
I can agree with some of what you've said, but it all boils down to this. Bernie is a self-declared "socialist."

IMO that means when push comes to show in November 2020, he will facing absolute opposition from Republican voters, substantial opposition from Independent voters, and some opposition from centrist Democrat voters.

Warren, with her pie in the sky giveaways would face the same thing, only perhaps to a lesser extent and IMO most Democrats recognize she is not really "socialist" as much as just an opportunist who will say almost anything to win votes.

The problem with your thesis is that he actually does very well among independents, and his core policies even have some substantial minority support among Republicans (though I don't think he would or should go to lengths to entice their vote given the opportunity cost). Moreover, Sanders has actually and largely singlehandedly done a fantastic job of redefining socialism from the GOP standard of 'anyone left of John McCain' and as a staple, lazy pejorative to a descriptor of popular government programs such as Social Security and Medicare and Medicaid, robbing it, and indeed neo-McCarthyism in general, of much of its power, while opening the latter to counterattack.

It should be abundantly clear by now, that when Bernie described himself as a 'democratic socialist' he was playing 3 dimensional chess in getting out in front of and blunting the word he knew would inevitably be used as a cudgel against him (and let's face it, pretty much any Dem nominee under the sun), whether or not he self-identified as such. It's unfortunate that meaning has to be wrenched and twisted about like this, but in the end, turn about is fair game, and if the Republicans insist on starting things, we sure as hell will finish them.

iguanaman · Feb 6, 2020

Surrealistik said:
The problem with your thesis is that he actually does very well among independents, and his core policies even have some substantial minority support among Republicans (though I don't think he would or should go to lengths to entice their vote given the opportunity cost). Moreover, Sanders has actually and largely singlehandedly done a fantastic job of redefining socialism from the GOP standard of 'anyone left of John McCain' and as a staple, lazy pejorative to a descriptor of popular government programs such as social security and Medicare and Medicaid, robbing it, and indeed neo-McCarthyism in general, of much of its power, while opening it to counterattack.

It should be abundantly clear by now, that when Bernie described himself as a 'democratic socialist' he was playing 3 dimensional chess in getting out in front of and blunting the word he knew would inevitably be used as a cudgel against him, whether or not he self-identified as such. It's unfortunate that meaning has to be wrenched and twisted about like this, but in the end, turn about is fair game, and if the Republicans insist on starting things, we sure as hell will finish them.

So you are looking forward to Putin digging thru Russian archives to find as much derogatory stuff on Bernie as he can? There is no doubt a treasure trove of clips from his honeymoon in Russia.

Surrealistik · Feb 6, 2020

iguanaman said:
So you are looking forward to Putin digging thru Russian archives to find as much derogatory stuff on Bernie as he can? There is no doubt a treasure trove of clips from his honeymoon in Russia.

Lol. If that's even close to the best they've got it won't be nearly enough, so sure.

Checkerboard Strangler · Feb 6, 2020

aociswundumho said:
One thing that doesn't get talked about much is that Bernie has never really been properly attacked. He has more baggage than Delta airlines, and he gets visibly angry and upset whenever he is questioned about his life-long love affair with Marxism. Trump no doubt will exploit Bernie's past to the fullest extent possible, especially when they debate each other. I think Bernie will end up having a major meltdown, hopefully on live network television.

Hmmmm, when he was a young man in his twenties or so, he wrote a bunch of raunchy stuff for fifty cents a word.
He was a socialist mayor who propped up the Soviets back when we were on the brink of Glasnost, and he does have a few pet ideals that even a lot of lefties think are ridiculous and which are guaranteed to sink like a rock in Congress, like voting rights for convicted violent felons in prison and free healthcare for illegals.

But let me know when Bernie sexually assaults someone, mocks the disabled, tears a child from their parents, pays off a porn star, insults a gold star family, calls nazis fine people, denies science, steals from a charity, or starts a fake university.

Oh wait, his wife has something in her closet about a college...what was it?

According to 2017 news reports, the FBI was looking into allegations of possible bank fraud in connection with a $10 million loan Sanders helped Burlington College obtain in 2010 to purchase 33 acres of land from the Roman Catholic Diocese of Burlington. The investigation was launched after complaints were filed with the FBI in 2016 by Brady Toensing, chair of the Vermont Republican Party and Vermont campaign manager for then-candidate Donald Trump. His complaints alleged she had misrepresented the college's donor levels and pledges in the loan application. Bernie Sanders described the allegations by Trump's former campaign manager in Vermont as politically motivated and "nonsense". As of June 2017, Jane Sanders had retained counsel while the FBI investigated the matter.

On November 13, 2018, the U.S. Attorney in Vermont closed its investigation of the college land deal involving her and decided not to bring charges.

Brady Toensing? Is that Victoria Toensing's hubby? The lady who pals around with Rudy Giuliani?
Yeah sure, bring on the Jane Sanders investigation! That would be fun!

What else? Commie commie commie? Red baiting? Have fun with that!

iguanaman · Feb 6, 2020

Surrealistik said:
Lol. If that's even close to the best they've got it won't be nearly enough, so sure.

Why did he lose by over a million primary votes in 2016 against Hillary? Was she a much better candidate than the ones he is against in 2020?

Surrealistik · Feb 6, 2020

iguanaman said:
Why did he lose by over a million primary votes in 2016 against Hillary? Was she a much better candidate than the ones he is against in 2020?

Because Sanders was unknown to literally everyone in the country save those in Washington and political junkies when he started his campaign at 3% and zero money vs Hillary's ~69% and sprawling war chest while the DNC, staffed by people she signed off on as part of its bailout covenant, did its utmost best to slant the entire process?

aociswundumho · Feb 6, 2020

Surrealistik said:
To be frank, I don't think anyone much cares that he held socialist views half a century ago in his youth,

No, they are his current views. Not too long ago, Anderson Cooper, on network television, asked Bernie Sanders a question:

"Do you think the Cuban revolution was good for the people of Cuba?"

It's a simple question, but instead of answering it, Bernie went off on a rant about American foreign policy. Cooper then repeated the question, and again, Bernie would not answer it. He didn't answer it because he truly believes what he said back in 1985, that Castro "totally transformed the society" for the better.

when on matters of policy and prescription he's been nothing but a North European/Nordic centrist since his late 30s,

Just recently he called for the nationalization of all utilities:

https://twitter.com/berniesanders/status/1188541919485399040?lang=en

He has also called for national rent control.

https://twitter.com/berniesanders/status/1175834645981736962?lang=en

His entire platform is about centralizing power with the federal government, i.e. nationalization in one form or another.

I wholly invite Trump to go the way of neo-McCarthyism while Sanders describes how he's going to make life better for Americans, and his opponent will not, and in many ways, has not.

And then Trump says, "You mean like Castro made life better for Cubans?"

Chomsky · Feb 6, 2020

Surrealistik said:
You lead a fascinating fantasy life.

I mean for starters, Sanders has been attacked, and will continue to be attacked as he consolidates his new position as front runner. Moreover, when Bernie gets angry, he doesn't meltdown so much as he goes on the attack and spits substantive barbs on demonstrable policy failings.

To be frank, I don't think anyone much cares that he held socialist views half a century ago in his youth, when on matters of policy and prescription he's been nothing but a North European/Nordic centrist since his late 30s, and has been an ardent champion of civil rights all his life.

I wholly invite Trump to go the way of neo-McCarthyism while Sanders describes how he's going to make life better for Americans, and his opponent will not, and in many ways, has not.

Nice post! :thumbs:

If Bernie is anything, he appears to be a man of principle. He'll make a good contrast to Trump.

swing_voter · Feb 6, 2020

There's footage of Bernie in Nicaragua next to a mob of protesters shouting "death to America".

Hillary and whoever wins this primary didn't or won't use the footage because they don't want to alienate the Bernie Bros. Trump will have no such qualms. Bernie and "death to America" will be on TV 24/7.

Surrealistik · Feb 6, 2020

aociswundumho said:
No, they are his current views. Not too long ago, Anderson Cooper, on network television, asked Bernie Sanders a question:

"Do you think the Cuban revolution was good for the people of Cuba?"

It's a simple question, but instead of answering it, Bernie went off on a rant about American foreign policy. Cooper then repeated the question, and again, Bernie would not answer it. He didn't answer it because he truly believes what he said back in 1985, that Castro "totally transformed the society" for the better.

Just recently he called for the nationalization of all utilities:

Bernie Sanders on Twitter: "It is time to begin thinking about public ownership of major utilities."

He has also called for national rent control.

https://twitter.com/berniesanders/status/1175834645981736962?lang=en

His entire platform is about centralizing power with the federal government, i.e. nationalization in one form or another.

And then Trump says, "You mean like Castro made life better for Cubans?"

You're trotting out the same disingenuous old horses I've already dealt with; tiresome.

Sanders correctly pointed out that yes, Castro's Cuba does objectively have some notable achievements to its name. Moreover, he explicitly stated to Anderson no less, that he did not support the political or economic policies of Communist Cuba; something I literally linked you to days ago: YouTube

Second, rhetorical tweets addressing the disastrous mismanagement of private California utilities obviously are not a serious prescription or platform for wholesale 'nationalization of all utilities' nor is buildout of the TVA.

Third, national rent control programs are not nationalization.

Again, this is a prime example of a typical disingenuous Republican who either literally has no idea what socialism is or otherwise isn't interested in the definition, and redefines it to mean basically whatever the **** he finds to be politically expedient.

People will see through you, just as they saw through Warren making her outrageous allegations against Bernie, and it will backfire, so bring it.

aociswundumho · Feb 6, 2020

Checkerboard Strangler said:
Hmmmm, when he was a young man in his twenties or so, he wrote a bunch of raunchy stuff for fifty cents a word.

I wasn't even talking about the rape essay, but that will come out too. Go read it. It didn't age very well, and I don't think the American public will approve of it very much.

pilot16 · Feb 6, 2020

I cant see Bernie making it all the way. Bloomberg is running as he is (skipping the first 4 states) just "in case" Bernie wins them. He is there to blunt Bernie's momentum. If Bernie comes out victorious Bloomberg will be there. If Bernie still moves ahead, I suspect there will be some odd vote count somewhere that could lead to a brokered convention and then Bloomberg will be there.

Surrealistik · Feb 6, 2020

pilot16 said:
I cant see Bernie making it all the way. Bloomberg is running as he is (skipping the first 4 states) just "in case" Bernie wins them. He is there to blunt Bernie's momentum. If Bernie comes out victorious Bloomberg will be there. If Bernie still moves ahead, I suspect there will be some odd vote count somewhere that could lead to a brokered convention and then Bloomberg will be there.

The idea of Bloomberg being nominee or defeating Sanders is at least as ludicrous as aociswundumho's Orwellian and protean definition of the word socialism.

A brokered convention is however, a legitimate threat, but only if the party is willing to go nuclear and self-destruct to avoid handing Sanders the nomination.

pilot16 · Feb 6, 2020

Surrealistik said:
The idea of Bloomberg being nominee or defeating Sanders is at least as ludicrous as aociswundumho's Orwellian and protean definition of the word socialism.

A brokered convention is however, a legitimate threat, but only if the party is willing to go nuclear and self-destruct to avoid handing Sanders the nomination.

I think they will. Bloomberg is buying this election. Money talks. Now the national media is onboard. I now regularly am hearing pundits say "oh wouldnt it be great to see two billionaires fighting each other?" Its like they are setting this up. I am just cynical over it all. So many shenanigans in Iowa and now two paid Bloomberg staffers on the DNC? I dont believe in coincidences.

'In Law School They Called This Conflict of Interest': Tlaib Objects to Paid Bloomberg Staffers on DNC Committees | Common Dreams News

Acadia · Feb 6, 2020

Captain Adverse said:
I can agree with some of what you've said, but it all boils down to this. Bernie is a self-declared "socialist."

IMO that means when push comes to shove in November 2020, he will facing absolute opposition from Republican voters, substantial opposition from Independent voters, and some opposition from centrist Democrat voters.

Warren, with her pie in the sky giveaways would face the same thing, only perhaps to a lesser extent as IMO most Democrats recognize her as more of an opportunist who will say almost anything to win votes, and not really "socialist."

When push comes to shove, Bernie the Socialist will have to explain to the American people how he can look them in the eye and advocate for the Boston bomber's right to vote and have any say whatsoever in civilized American society.
That alone makes me want to puke.

aociswundumho · Feb 6, 2020

Surrealistik said:
Sanders explicitly stated he did not support the political or economic policies of Communist Cuba as I literally linked you to days ago: YouTube

Yes, that's true, but Cooper didn't ask him about present day Cuba. He asked him if the Cuban revolution was good for the people of Cuba - which Bernie twice refused to answer. You're hearing what you want to hear, instead of what he actually said.

Second, rhetorical tweets addressing the disastrous mismanagement of private California utilities

Those tweets are not "rhetorical". He's a socialist, ffs.

obviously are not a serious prescription or platform for wholesale 'nationalization of all utilities' nor is buildout of the TVA.

Watch the video in that twitter post with Chris Hayes.

Third, national rent control programs is not nationalization.

True, but it's centralized control of the price of every rental dwelling in the country. Bernie is a socialist, he always wants power centralized with the national government. Just look at his platform.

Captain America · Feb 6, 2020

Captain Adverse said:
I can agree with some of what you've said, but it all boils down to this. Bernie is a self-declared "socialist."

IMO that means when push comes to shove in November 2020, he will facing absolute opposition from Republican voters, substantial opposition from Independent voters, and some opposition from centrist Democrat voters.

Warren, with her pie in the sky giveaways would face the same thing, only perhaps to a lesser extent as IMO most Democrats recognize her as more of an opportunist who will say almost anything to win votes, and not really "socialist."

I agree. But the one thing Bernie does have going for him, with independents and moderates, is that he is NOT Donald Trump. Seriously, I think most people that have no intention on voting for Trump, (I.O.W., "the majority") will be voting for just about anyone who is running against him. I've never seen a president so hated before. Not even Obama.

All that being said, if anyone COULD lose running against Trump, if that is at all possible, the DNC will figure out who that person is and most likely run them.

If Non-Trumper's were really smart, and they wanted, above all things, was to kick Trump to the curb once and for all, they would would run whomever had the best chance of doing that. And I don't think their best chance to defeat Twumpy is Bernie. He might win, but it would be a nail biter. And the EC decides anyways. (That's the only way a republican can even get elected these days as the majority of America will not vote for them.)

Yes. If it is all possible to lose to Trump knowing what we all know now, the democrats will find a way to do it.

Surrealistik · Feb 6, 2020

aociswundumho said:
Yes, that's true, but Cooper didn't ask him about present day Cuba. He asked him if the Cuban revolution was good for the people of Cuba - which Bernie twice refused to answer. You're hearing what you want to hear, instead of what he actually said.

Because the answer is more complicated than a binary yes or no, and deserves a nuanced answer which Sanders indeed gave him.

Those tweets are not "rhetorical". He's a socialist, ffs.

That tweet was pretty much the definition of rhetoric.

Watch the video in that twitter post with Chris Hayes.

And as I told you in response, go look up his actual policies regarding the TVA; it is a build out, and factually not nationalization of all utilities.

True, but it's centralized control of the price of every rental dwelling in the country. Bernie is a socialist, he always wants power centralized with the national government. Just look at his platform.

So I take it you think any and all price controls and regulation are inherently socialist? If so, I've got bad news for you, because most developed countries in the world have engaged in some form of price controls. Bottom line, this is neither socialism or nationalization.

Increasing federal involvement simply is not communism or socialism or nationalization; you are blatantly trying to contort, twist and redefine these words for naked political purposes.

aociswundumho · Feb 6, 2020

Surrealistik said:
It should be abundantly clear by now, that when Bernie described himself as a 'democratic socialist' he was playing 3 dimensional chess in getting out in front of and blunting the word he knew would inevitably be used as a cudgel against him.

Putting "democratic" in front of socialist doesn't change anything. From the DSA website:

The DSA Constitution said:
We are socialists because we reject an economic order based on private profit, alienated labor, gross inequalities of wealth and power, discrimination based on race, sex, sexual orientation, gender expression, disability status, age, religion, and national origin, and brutality and violence in defense of the status quo. We are socialists because we share a vision of a humane social order based on popular control of resources and production, economic planning, equitable distribution, feminism, racial equality and non-oppressive relationships. We are socialists because we are developing a concrete strategy for achieving that vision, for building a majority movement that will make democratic socialism a reality in America. We believe that such a strategy must acknowledge the class structure of American society and that this class structure means that there is a basic conflict of interest between those sectors with enormous economic power and the vast majority of the population.

Institute the bold parts and you have the economy of the USSR, Cuba, North Korea, Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge, China under Mao, etc.

If it comes down to Bernie vs Trump

aociswundumho

Capitalist Pig

Helix

Moonglow

Surrealistik

Captain Adverse

Classical Liberal Sage

iguanaman

Surrealistik

iguanaman

Surrealistik

Checkerboard Strangler

deepfreezefilms.bsky.social

iguanaman

Surrealistik

aociswundumho

Capitalist Pig

Chomsky

Social Democrat

swing_voter

Surrealistik

aociswundumho

Capitalist Pig

pilot16

Well-known member

Surrealistik

pilot16

Well-known member

Acadia

aociswundumho

Capitalist Pig

Captain America

Jedi Master

Surrealistik

aociswundumho

Capitalist Pig

If it comes down to Bernie vs Trump

Capitalist Pig

Classical Liberal Sage

deepfreezefilms.bsky.social

Capitalist Pig

Social Democrat

Capitalist Pig

Well-known member

Well-known member

Capitalist Pig

Jedi Master

Capitalist Pig

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency