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If guns make us safer.....

Fenton Lum said:
The entire world saw what america is with that trial.
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so does that mean the outcome caused lots of Europeans, Asians, and Latinos to stop entering our country? Legally or Illegally? BFD
 
JLee1977 said:
Got any actual facts to back up that statement or are you pulling that out of your ass?
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its another stupid throwaway line that has no basis in fact. Many of the gun banners, gun haters, gun restrictionists etc want to pretend that white people own guns because they are actually racists who want to shoot blacks. Its BS and my post had nothing to do with "race"
 
Fenton Lum said:
No one reasonably expects you to care.
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ah the typical left wing mantra: "we care"

are you ever going to back up your silly comments? What cost did the Martin/Zimmerman case impose on America?
 
jaeger19 said:
Citation please.
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Its yet another lie. Now when a criminal -of any color-gets shot or apprehended by an honest citizen we consider that a public good. Like those two white boys in Tennessee who captured two white (IIRC) prison escapees who killed two LEOs getting away. Now what is also true is that gun banners often celebrate massacres involving firearms-especially scary looking rifles-so they can use the blood of the victims to smear the second amendment

all you have to do is understand what news stories benefit which side

Criminals being shot, caught or driven off by an armed honest citizen-helps the NRA

Innocents being shot by nut cases-especially in states that don't have the sort of anti gun laws the anti rights movement prays for-helps the anti gun propagandists

so what does the NRA and honest gun owners want? Lots of stories about thugs being caught or incapacitated by good people with guns

so what does the Brady bunch, every town for anti gun nonsense and the moronic gun banning moms want? Lots of stories of gun crime-especially when photogenic victims are present. Black thugs killing other thugs or kids in the crossfire in Democrat run cities-not so much
 
TurtleDude said:
Its yet another lie. Now when a criminal -of any color-gets shot or apprehended by an honest citizen we consider that a public good. Like those two white boys in Tennessee who captured two white (IIRC) prison escapees who killed two LEOs getting away. Now what is also true is that gun banners often celebrate massacres involving firearms-especially scary looking rifles-so they can use the blood of the victims to smear the second amendment

all you have to do is understand what news stories benefit which side

Criminals being shot, caught or driven off by an armed honest citizen-helps the NRA

Innocents being shot by nut cases-especially in states that don't have the sort of anti gun laws the anti rights movement prays for-helps the anti gun propagandists

so what does the NRA and honest gun owners want? Lots of stories about thugs being caught or incapacitated by good people with guns

so what does the Brady bunch, every town for anti gun nonsense and the moronic gun banning moms want? Lots of stories of gun crime-especially when photogenic victims are present. Black thugs killing other thugs or kids in the crossfire in Democrat run cities-not so much
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We have heard the complaints over and over again on these forums that if black crime was eliminated we would no longer have a gun problem. Gun nuts want to believe it is ANYTHING but the gun. Race, politics, poverty, drugs, gangs.....anything but the actual bullet that passes thru the body is what is killing americans. It is completely absurd
 
TurtleDude said:
so what you are telling me-is you know more than the jurors, you know more than the judge and your unlearned opinion on what should have been the verdict is more important than the Jury and the Court? what bothers you the most? that Zimmerman had a gun? that Martin was a black wannabe Thug? I think Zimmerman made lots of stupid mistakes. He should have done what the 911 dispatch told him to do. Letting Thuggin Martin jump him shows he had his head up his ass. But the Jury of his peers didn't find he committed a crime. so your opinion doesn't mean squat
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So you have never lost a cause where you know the guy was guilty.. but the jurors saw it differently? Or have you never seen a case where a DA botched or tanked a case that they should have gotten a guilty verdict?

the Zimmerman case should have ended up with a guilty verdict of manslaughter and or other lesser crimes. The evidence is clearly sufficient for a conviction in this case.

By the way.. in this case the evidence is clear that MARTIN.. was clearly justified in "jumping" Zimmerman (If that's even what occurred) given zimmermans actions.

If you stepped back a moment and thought.

What if you were being pursued by a unknown man.. who is clearly not a police officer. You try to get away but he continues to follow you. Its dark.. its raining.. its night.

Do you think you are under a threat? I gosh darn bet you would see that as a threat. And you confront the fellow.. not wanting to expose your back to him (stand your ground), and he brushes back his jacket toward a handgun?

Would you think that this man that's following you wants to invite you to tea and crumpits? Or would you reasonably believe your life was in danger and move to protect yourself with whatever means you had?

I think that if you removed it being a white male member of the neighborhood watch.. and a black kid wearing a hoodie with a questionable history... and saw it for what the situation really was.. you would realize that Martin had every reason to believe he was in mortal danger. Because Zimmermans actions would reasonably constitute a threat.
 
jaeger19 said:
So you have never lost a cause where you know the guy was guilty.. but the jurors saw it differently? Or have you never seen a case where a DA botched or tanked a case that they should have gotten a guilty verdict?

the Zimmerman case should have ended up with a guilty verdict of manslaughter and or other lesser crimes. The evidence is clearly sufficient for a conviction in this case.

By the way.. in this case the evidence is clear that MARTIN.. was clearly justified in "jumping" Zimmerman (If that's even what occurred) given zimmermans actions.

If you stepped back a moment and thought.

What if you were being pursued by a unknown man.. who is clearly not a police officer. You try to get away but he continues to follow you.
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A 17 year old athletic kid couldn't get away from Zimmerman?
 
jaeger19 said:
So you have never lost a cause where you know the guy was guilty.. but the jurors saw it differently? Or have you never seen a case where a DA botched or tanked a case that they should have gotten a guilty verdict?

the Zimmerman case should have ended up with a guilty verdict of manslaughter and or other lesser crimes. The evidence is clearly sufficient for a conviction in this case.

By the way.. in this case the evidence is clear that MARTIN.. was clearly justified in "jumping" Zimmerman (If that's even what occurred) given zimmermans actions.

If you stepped back a moment and thought.

What if you were being pursued by a unknown man.. who is clearly not a police officer. You try to get away but he continues to follow you. Its dark.. its raining.. its night.

Do you think you are under a threat? I gosh darn bet you would see that as a threat. And you confront the fellow.. not wanting to expose your back to him (stand your ground), and he brushes back his jacket toward a handgun?

Would you think that this man that's following you wants to invite you to tea and crumpits? Or would you reasonably believe your life was in danger and move to protect yourself with whatever means you had?

I think that if you removed it being a white male member of the neighborhood watch.. and a black kid wearing a hoodie with a questionable history... and saw it for what the situation really was.. you would realize that Martin had every reason to believe he was in mortal danger. Because Zimmermans actions would reasonably constitute a threat.
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I have no idea what you are arguing but I know that the jury found reasonable doubt of a crime and that is all that is needed to acquit. I am not going to second guess a jury where I was not present for the trial. Stuff like the demeanor of the witnesses is crucial in the decision by the judges of the facts. When someone claimed Zimmerman MURDERED Thuggin Martin, that was a complete lie. BTW I was bashing the actions of Zimmerman -he failed many things that resulted in him shooting Thuggin Martin
 
jaeger19 said:
Prove I cannot carry a weapon in public when going camping, hunting or fishing in Florida.
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You won't get any proof. we have yet to see any proof for the constant litany of lies such as
its just a form
it will make us safer
 
vegas giants said:
We have heard the complaints over and over again on these forums that if black crime was eliminated we would no longer have a gun problem. Gun nuts want to believe it is ANYTHING but the gun. Race, politics, poverty, drugs, gangs.....anything but the actual bullet that passes thru the body is what is killing americans. It is completely absurd
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Hmmmm well perhaps Vegas.. the reason that "gun nuts" as you call them believe that its anything but the gun.. is because the EVIDENCE shows that poverty, drugs, gangs, politics, race have a tremendous effect on crime and violence. While the evidence shows that gun ownership has little effect.

If gun ownership had a huge effect. America would be the most dangerous country in the world. While Mexico would be a utopia of peace. But we aren't.. we are very safe nation and as our gun laws have decreased.. our crime has gone down.

Meanwhile.. Mexico with very strict gun control laws.. has a crime rate much higher than ours.

And whats the first thing you have said about why America has a lower crime rate than Mexico despite guns being more permissible in America?

"well America and Mexico are different".

That's right.. and what makes the difference? Poverty, opportunity, education, drugs, gangs, politics...
 
jaeger19 said:
Prove I cannot carry a weapon in public when going camping, hunting or fishing in Florida.
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Look if you are fine with these restrictions then so am I. Lets make them nationwide. And in every state you will still be able to carry your gun without a permit while hunting. Works for me.
 
jaeger19 said:
Hmmmm well perhaps Vegas.. the reason that "gun nuts" as you call them believe that its anything but the gun.. is because the EVIDENCE shows that poverty, drugs, gangs, politics, race have a tremendous effect on crime and violence. While the evidence shows that gun ownership has little effect.

If gun ownership had a huge effect. America would be the most dangerous country in the world. While Mexico would be a utopia of peace. But we aren't.. we are very safe nation and as our gun laws have decreased.. our crime has gone down.

Meanwhile.. Mexico with very strict gun control laws.. has a crime rate much higher than ours.

And whats the first thing you have said about why America has a lower crime rate than Mexico despite guns being more permissible in America?

"well America and Mexico are different".

That's right.. and what makes the difference? Poverty, opportunity, education, drugs, gangs, politics...
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I think rule of law is a bigger factor. We are talking about laws. When you have a country with high corruption like mexico and Russia there is not respect for the law
 
TurtleDude said:
You won't get any proof. we have yet to see any proof for the constant litany of lies such as
its just a form
it will make us safer
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Relax.......


Its just a form
 
TurtleDude said:
ah the typical left wing mantra: "we care"

are you ever going to back up your silly comments? What cost did the Martin/Zimmerman case impose on America?
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All you can do is label anyone who ever disagreed with you on anything, "left".
 
TurtleDude said:
I have no idea what you are arguing but I know that the jury found reasonable doubt of a crime and that is all that is needed to acquit. I am not going to second guess a jury where I was not present for the trial. Stuff like the demeanor of the witnesses is crucial in the decision by the judges of the facts. When someone claimed Zimmerman MURDERED Thuggin Martin, that was a complete lie. BTW I was bashing the actions of Zimmerman -he failed many things that resulted in him shooting Thuggin Martin
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Well, Turtledude.. I would suggest that you actually do some research on the case and the trial before exonerating Zimmerman from crime and calling Martin "Thuggin.

You might find a few things...

Like Zimmerman had a history of criminal violence. While martin had no criminal history.

Like Zimmerman did a year of training 2-3 x week for MMA which included fighting off his back. In fact.. rather than the story that Martin knocked Zimmerman down.. the more likely scenario is that Zimmerman tried a guillotine choke on Martin and this is how he ended up on his back. In either case.. he was TAUGHT to fight off his back. He had been in that position before and would have known that he was not in serious danger.. particularly since he KNEW police were on the way.. since he had called him.

Meanwhile Martin had no fight training whatsoever.

In addition.. Zimmerman claimed that they fought over the gun. But there were no fingerprints from Martin on the weapon. In fact.. MArtins dna was not found on the weapon.

No offense but you have made a judgment without the evidence. "thuggin Martin?"... come on man.

By the way.. you and I know that in an affirmative defense.. its not reasonable doubt.
 
vegas giants said:
I think rule of law is a bigger factor. We are talking about laws. When you have a country with high corruption like mexico and Russia there is not respect for the law
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Oh.. so you think criminals in the US obey the law?

If so.. then why are they criminals?
 
jaeger19 said:
Oh.. so you think criminals in the US obey the law?

If so.. then why are they criminals?
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When did I say criminals obey the law? What good is gun control in Russia if it doesn't apply to Russian mafia and Mexican cartels due to corruption?
 
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