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IDF shell Palestinian refugee camp

python416 said:




BEIRUT, Lebanon -- Israeli's military targeted Lebanon's largest Palestinian refugee camp from the air early Wednesday, killing at least one person and wounding three others, officials said.

Lebanese and Palestinian officials said an Israeli gunship shelled the Ein el-Hilweh camp, but Israel's military called the attack an airstrike that targeted a house used by Hezbollah guerrillas.

The attack was the first against the camp since the fighting between the Jewish state and Hezbollah began more than four weeks ago.

Palestinian and Lebanese officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak to the media, said Israeli gunboats fired two shells, one landing in the camp on Sidon's outskirts and the other hitting the city's amusement park,

The officials said the casualties in the camp came when the shell crashed into location manned by the Fatah militia, which used to train guerillas there.

Ein el-Hilweh is the largest of Lebanon's 12 Palestinian refugee camps and has witnessed years of bombings, assassinations and shootings as rival factions in the camp vie for control. The camp also is believed to be hide out for many fugitives wanted by Lebanese authorities and is a haven militant groups.

The Lebanese army does not enter the camp but maintains positions at the camp's entrances to keep the guerillas in check.

Rest of the story.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1107AP_Mideast_Fighting_Raids.html
 
First of all there is no such thing as "Palestinian refugees".

In 1948, Arab leaders urged their people to leave, promising to cleanse the land of Jewish presence. 68% of them fled without ever setting eyes on an Israeli soldier.

Some 630,000 Arabs left Israel in 1948, while close to a million Jews were forced to leave the Muslim countries

For more info please go to here:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/358630-post36.html
 
The face of Jacob said:
First of all there is no such thing as "Palestinian refugees".

In 1948, Arab leaders urged their people to leave, promising to cleanse the land of Jewish presence. 68% of them fled without ever setting eyes on an Israeli soldier.

Some 630,000 Arabs left Israel in 1948, while close to a million Jews were forced to leave the Muslim countries

For more info please go to here:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/358630-post36.html

More mindless drivel and propoganda...
 
The face of Jacob said:
First of all there is no such thing as "Palestinian refugees".

In 1948, Arab leaders urged their people to leave, promising to cleanse the land of Jewish presence. 68% of them fled without ever setting eyes on an Israeli soldier.

Some 630,000 Arabs left Israel in 1948, while close to a million Jews were forced to leave the Muslim countries

For more info please go to here:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/358630-post36.html

Anytime someone goes into the past to drag out claims to the land, etc. it is just pointless. There needs to be a 2 state solution, and Israel needs to take steps to make it happen. Next time the return authority (like Gaza) they should not withhold tax transfer cause they didn't like an election result. You can't be for democracy only if you approve of the outcome.

Olmert is an idiot and this isn't going to bring peace to Israelis. If you think this war is justified - you might just be right - but you it will not bring peace.

I think if you want peace, you need to end the occupation - but that is up to Israelis to decide if they want to be right more than they want to be safe.
 
python416 said:
Anytime someone goes into the past to drag out claims to the land, etc. it is just pointless. There needs to be a 2 state solution, and Israel needs to take steps to make it happen. Next time the return authority (like Gaza) they should not withhold tax transfer cause they didn't like an election result. You can't be for democracy only if you approve of the outcome.

Olmert is an idiot and this isn't going to bring peace to Israelis. If you think this war is justified - you might just be right - but you it will not bring peace.

I think if you want peace, you need to end the occupation - but that is up to Israelis to decide if they want to be right more than they want to be safe.


Thats what they are doing now..wipe out the hezbolla and hamas = peace
 
PeteEU said:
More mindless drivel and propoganda...

Its better then the crap the Arabs always puke out.
 
python416 said:
Anytime someone goes into the past to drag out claims to the land, etc. it is just pointless. There needs to be a 2 state solution, and Israel needs to take steps to make it happen.
This cannot happen until Israel's security is guaranteed.
And THAT will never happen, for the Islamic extremists themselves admit that they want to remove Israel from the face of the earth -- and will not rest until they do.

I think if you want peace, you need to end the occupation - but that is up to Israelis to decide if they want to be right more than they want to be safe.
The Israelis, quote corerectly, want to be safe. There isnt any reason for them to think or act otherwise.

Perpetual war is better than national suicide.
 
cherokee said:
Its better then the crap the Arabs always puke out.

Not really, both sides are morons.
 
python416 said:
Anytime someone goes into the past to drag out claims to the land, etc. it is just pointless. There needs to be a 2 state solution, and Israel needs to take steps to make it happen.
She did, but peace in the eyes of our neighbours is the complete destruction of the state of Israel. They have their own state which is nothing but a nest of terror.

python416 said:
Next time the return authority (like Gaza) they should not withhold tax transfer cause they didn't like an election result. You can't be for democracy only if you approve of the outcome.

Olmert is an idiot and this isn't going to bring peace to Israelis. If you think this war is justified - you might just be right - but you it will not bring peace.
Every Jew who defends his country is consider to be an idiot in your eyes.
python416 said:
I think if you want peace, you need to end the occupation - but that is up to Israelis to decide if they want to be right more than they want to be safe.
Peace will be when the enemies of the Jews will be destroyed. Completely. Then and only then there will be peace. A worldwide peace.
 
"Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us".
Golda Meir
 
The face of Jacob said:
Every Jew who defends his country is consider to be an idiot in your eyes.

I don't think so - but nice try. Olmert is an idiot for claiming that he is making progress before he actually made it. Now he had to switch commanders because the job wasn't getting done. It is a page right out of the May 2nd 2003 carrier landing from another such idiot. Sharon would have done a better job, and I wish he was health.

I don't have anything against Israel, Jews, or anyone else. It is the policy, not the people, that I think are in the wrong. But thanks for the unjustified characterization.
 
As long as both sides are more intent on pointing fingers at the other and wringing their hands about how they are victims of the other, there will be no peace. The blame game doesn't solve anything. Neither side has any high moral ground to stand on, they are both equally to blame for the mess they are in, both have squandered every chance they have gotten to work out a peace deal. They are both like petulant children who need to be sent to time out.

Maybe someday they both will get tired of the bloodshed, and will seriously come to the table to negotiate with no preconditions. I'm not holding my breath.
 
python416 said:
I don't think so - but nice try. Olmert is an idiot for claiming that he is making progress before he actually made it. Now he had to switch commanders because the job wasn't getting done.
He didn't switch any commanders at all.
python416 said:
I don't have anything against Israel, Jews, or anyone else. It is the policy, not the people, that I think are in the wrong. But thanks for the unjustified characterization.
Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. I familiar with that. What else, python416? I wond when you will say: "Don't worry, My best friends are Jews".
 
The face of Jacob said:
He didn't switch any commanders at all.

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. I familiar with that. What else, python416? I wond when you will say: "Don't worry, My best friends are Jews".

He did switch commanders:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=109539

You can try and frame me as an anti-Jew if you want, but it doesn't change the fact there there are a lot (at least a few) Jews that I know who are also not in favor of this operation. And it would seem that polling data is now showing that Jews in Israel are also dropping from support of this war - since it is not producing the results that Olmert suggested it would.

Politically, his optimisum was hasty, and that is why I said he was an idiot. I may not have always been a fan of him, but I wish Arial Sharon was healthy. He would not have made the same calls as Olmert - I think.
 
python416 said:
He did switch commanders:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=109539

You can try and frame me as an anti-Jew if you want, but it doesn't change the fact there there are a lot (at least a few) Jews that I know who are also not in favor of this operation. And it would seem that polling data is now showing that Jews in Israel are also dropping from support of this war - since it is not producing the results that Olmert suggested it would.

Politically, his optimisum was hasty, and that is why I said he was an idiot. I may not have always been a fan of him, but I wish Arial Sharon was healthy. He would not have made the same calls as Olmert - I think.
You have severe problems in reading comprehension, python416. He didn't switch any commanders. The article is saying that Dan Haluts, the Chief of General Staff, appointed his deputy to be his representative in the northian command. Udi Adam is the commander of the north and he didn't move from his role. He sent Kaplinski to help Adam and not to replace him.

And again, you have severe problems in reading comprehension. Ehud Olmert didn't do that, the chief of General Staff did it. Ehud Olmert is not the commander of the army. And please tell us all what Ehud Olmert expected from that war? Most of the Israelis are supporting that fighting back. The one who doesn't is one who support the destruction of the state of Israel and maybe you are one of them.
 
The face of Jacob said:
You have severe problems in reading comprehension, python416. He didn't switch any commanders. The article is saying that Dan Haluts, the Chief of General Staff, appointed his deputy to be his representative in the northian command. Udi Adam is the commander of the north and he didn't move from his role. He sent Kaplinski to help Adam and not to replace him.

And again, you have severe problems in reading comprehension. Ehud Olmert didn't do that, the chief of General Staff did it. Ehud Olmert is not the commander of the army. And please tell us all what Ehud Olmert expected from that war? Most of the Israelis are supporting that fighting back. The one who doesn't is one who support the destruction of the state of Israel and maybe you are one of them.

My reading comprehension is weak, I must admit. However, it is a change in command, even if it isn't labeled as such in the press release. Regardless of where the order came from, in governance, the buck stops at the top of the food chain. If you don't want to see it as a "switch", or don't want to see it as coming from Olmert, then fine - but it is a switch and anyone who understands politics knows that a high-levelswitch in the middle of a military operation is basically an acknowledgement that someone wasn't doing their job.

The Israelis, of course, supported fighting back - but the support has dropped. And the reason why is obvoisuly because depite Olmert's claims that the IDF is winning, the rocket attacks continue. His leadership is being question, even in Israel, and everyone knows that.

There are people in this world, both inside Israel and abroad, that at the same time support Israel's right to exist and defend herself - but think this war is the result of bad strategy and bad execution. To claim this to be false is assertion is to claim that there does not exist one person who feels that way - and that is a mathematical mistruth. Support for Olmert and the war have fallen since it began, and if it wasn't for this potential UN deal, it would fall furthur.

Do think Sharon would put himself in a position where he jumped the gun to say the war was being won, while not being 100% sure that was the case? No - because he is, amoung other things, a skilled politican.

You can continue to say I am anti-semitic if you want, but that is unjustified and uncalled for - your premise that someone can't be for Israel and against Olmert's execution at the same time is just plain wrong.

Bottom line, did this war make anything better for Israel? And before you answer, think about the impact of a ruined Lebanon, polarized Shia population, and global upset caused by his short-sighted action. If Israel wanted to attack Hezbollah, then that is what they should have done. But bombing the hell out of the Lebanon isn't the same thing. All they have done is increased the power of Hezbollah. It isn't something I want to have happen, but it is the result of short-sighted tactics on Olmert's part. The blame falls squarly on his desk, regardless of the ORG chart beneath him.

I have great respect for Judiaism, and all of the Abrahamic religons. One day I hope to be able to visit Isreal. Please don't continue to paint me as someone against Jews. I have nothing against any Semites - including both Jews and Arabs. The wars will only end through reducing agression - not increasing it. More children have died then solders - and that is a pretty clear statistic showing, in my mind, that this thing isn't being done properly.

If the Mossad is so on the ball, why not use special forces and make clearner strikes directly at Hezbollah? Well because it is more costly, and the way it looks abroad is that Olmert just doesn't care enough about the civilian lives in Lebanon. That will come back to haunt him.

Again, I don't think Sharon would have made the same mistake. I would think that he would have launched a military campaign in response to the Hezbollah boarder incursion - but he would have been WAY more careful to manage the global perception of this thing. Olmert pulled a knee-jerk reaction. True leadership requires that you make decisions based on strategic goals, not based on the emotion of the moment.
 
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