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I went to the Naval Academy to defend freedom, not to dismantle it

Girlpower said:
You don't want the military to follow orders but to make their own decisions?

So a president orders a strike somewhere and you want the military to go, "hold on now, we aren't going to blindly follow that order we are going to have a discussion about it first to make sure it's a good order, we will get back to you Mr. President."

lol
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Your drop and run posts have no clue how the US military operates. Your make believe posts are a Saturday afternoon board game out on the patio.

You need to up your game away from 18 year olds to the top of the chain of command where Trump is because that's where the action is -- to stop the Bloodthirsty Potus/C'nC. Your posts pretend Trump the Generalissimo does not exist.

The JCS prevents orders that are objectionable, dubious, prima facie illegal or doubtful so that there is not any order to consider, resist or reject. Indeed news reports just surfaced that Trump's inner circle talked him down from blasting Iran which the Generalissimo Trump has long wanted to do and may do anyway because it's a thing Trump can't get out of his corn popping head.

Gen. Milley and SecDef Mark Esper the West Point grad refused Trump's order in early June 2020 to shoot peaceful civilian demonstrators at Lafayette Square across from the WH. Eighteen year olds don't face these decisions or anything like them. Everyone in the armed forces is education and trained about illegal orders to include officers and sergeants who give or relate orders cleared already by their uniformed JAG officer lawyers.
 
Tangmo said:
Your drop and run posts have no clue how the US military operates. Your make believe posts are a Saturday afternoon board game out on the patio.

You need to up your game away from 18 year olds to the top of the chain of command where Trump is because that's where the action is -- to stop the Bloodthirsty Potus/C'nC. Your posts pretend Trump the Generalissimo does not exist.

The JCS prevents orders that are objectionable, dubious, prima facie illegal or doubtful so that there is not any order to consider, resist or reject. Indeed news reports just surfaced that Trump's inner circle talked him down from blasting Iran which the Generalissimo Trump has long wanted to do and may do anyway because it's a thing Trump can't get out of his corn popping head.

Gen. Milley and SecDef Mark Esper the West Point grad refused Trump's order in early June 2020 to shoot peaceful civilian demonstrators at Lafayette Square across from the WH. Eighteen year olds don't face these decisions or anything like them. Everyone in the armed forces is education and trained about illegal orders to include officers and sergeants who give or relate orders cleared already by their uniformed JAG officer lawyers.
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The question wasn't about Trump it was about soldiers blindly following orders.

So what you are saying is that if a soldier is given an order that he needs to follow it because his higher ups would have authenticated it.

Thank you for agreeing with me.
 
Girlpower said:
The question wasn't about Trump it was about soldiers blindly following orders.

So what you are saying is that if a soldier is given an order that he needs to follow it because his higher ups would have authenticated it.

Thank you for agreeing with me.
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Now your posts have become The Comedy Corner.

Of Bloopers.


It's called the chain of command.

The OP is about American values btw because "very conservative" Americans have become what the USA fought against to defeat throughout the 20th century. The armband stuff.
 
Girlpower said:
The question wasn't about Trump it was about soldiers blindly following orders.

So what you are saying is that if a soldier is given an order that he needs to follow it because his higher ups would have authenticated it.

Thank you for agreeing with me.
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We didn't.

We explained. You refused to learn.
 
Fledermaus said:
Guess.
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To be honest, mostly it is the politically obsessed. They are the ones that will drag their own political beliefs into any discussion, no matter what it is about.

I do not kid when I say that I see CDS, BDS, ODS, TDS, and BDS as all different sides of the exact same coin. And I have no more interest in listening to somebody who drags President Biden into some conversation where he does not belong any more than I want to hear somebody doing it with President Trump. I view it all as a form of mental insanity, and have absolutely no interest in it.

Now there is a legitimate time for critiques on such things, but seeing it pulled into absolutely everything to me from either side borders on pathological. Especially as 99% of the time, you can tell exactly what somebody is going to say just by looking at the bottom of their information.

Yeah, I get it. You're Progressive-Liberal, therefore everything in the world that is not how you like it is most times going to be Trump's fault. Just as for those that are Conservative for the last 4 years were blaming everything on Biden. To me, it's all horseshit. I view all that act like that as mentally unstable, and have no interest being dragged through their particular form of insanity.
 
Girlpower said:
You don't want the military to follow orders but to make their own decisions?

So a president orders a strike somewhere and you want the military to go, "hold on now, we aren't going to blindly follow that order we are going to have a discussion about it first to make sure it's a good order, we will get back to you Mr. President."

lol
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Well, if the strike is on an orphanage it might be a good idea to make sure that’s actually a legal order.
 
Oozlefinch said:
To be honest, mostly it is the politically obsessed. They are the ones that will drag their own political beliefs into any discussion, no matter what it is about.

I do not kid when I say that I see CDS, BDS, ODS, TDS, and BDS as all different sides of the exact same coin. And I have no more interest in listening to somebody who drags President Biden into some conversation where he does not belong any more than I want to hear somebody doing it with President Trump. I view it all as a form of mental insanity, and have absolutely no interest in it.

Now there is a legitimate time for critiques on such things, but seeing it pulled into absolutely everything to me from either side borders on pathological. Especially as 99% of the time, you can tell exactly what somebody is going to say just by looking at the bottom of their information.

Yeah, I get it. You're Progressive-Liberal, therefore everything in the world that is not how you like it is most times going to be Trump's fault. Just as for those that are Conservative for the last 4 years were blaming everything on Biden. To me, it's all horseshit. I view all that act like that as mentally unstable, and have no interest being dragged through their particular form of insanity.
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?????
 
Alas, banality reigns.

Hannah Arendt was right about this:

"The sad truth of the matter is that most evil is done by people who never made up their minds to be or do either evil or good."


In the 1970s and by invitation I attended a lecture by Dr. Arendt during which she interested me in applying appropriate quotes here and there, now and then. Since so many pedestrian commenters have not read Dr. Arendt or ever will read her I keep her quotes on hand for shorthand. Here is another of Dr. Arendt's incisive quotes:

"The trouble with Eichmann was precisely that so many were like him, and that the many were neither perverted nor sadistic, that they were, and still are, terribly and terrifyingly normal. From the viewpoint of our legal institutions and of our moral standards of judgment, this normality was much more terrifying than all the atrocities put together."


Holier Than Thou also comes to mind as do Third Party voters come likewise to mind.

Indeed, the OP is about values and mores and those who are committed to defending them and preserving them. The OP is not standoffish nor is it unfair or inappropriate.
 
Rich2018 said:
Difficult to see how it could be legal.
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In war things happen. Life is close and life can be cheap. Unfortunately there is truth to the saying that all is fair in love and war. It's ugly.

Second hand I can say that decision options predetermined prior to zero hour and left up to whoever's ass is on the line to carry on or not depending on the situation at hand when the moment unfolds. There is usually a level of plausible deniability to protect those on up the chain of command. What I am aware of is the decision depends on variables. If this then this or this or this are your options. Even then, the options are not cut and dry. Las Vegas rules. Whatever happens there stays there.

In-country less than legal is somehow believable. The longer you are there the more you see and the more believable some things are.
 
Risky Thicket said:
In war things happen. Life is close and life can be cheap. Unfortunately there is truth to the saying that all is fair in love and war. It's ugly.
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There may be, but generally only for the victors

How many allied soldiers were tried in the Nuremburg war crimes trials ?

This is not always the case, especially in today's world, but a civilized country must adhere to rules regarding warfare.

Risky Thicket said:
There is usually a level of plausible deniability to protect those on up the chain of command. What I am aware of is the decision depends on variables. If this then this or this or this are your options. Even then, the options are not cut and dry. Las Vegas rules. Whatever happens there stays there.
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War crimes trials generally get to the root of the crime.

Risky Thicket said:
In-country less than legal is somehow believable. The longer you are there the more you see and the more believable some things are.
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I don't think it's a question of "believability", but rather one of de-humanization.
 
Rich2018 said:
There may be, but generally only for the victors

How many allied soldiers were tried in the Nuremburg war crimes trials ?

This is not always the case, especially in today's world, but a civilized country must adhere to rules regarding warfare.



War crimes trials generally get to the root of the crime.



I don't think it's a question of "believability", but rather one of de-humanization.
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How many allied soldiers were tried in the Nuremburg war crimes trials ?

None as it was s series of trials specifically for the Nazis and their ilk.
 
Rich2018 said:
There may be, but generally only for the victors

How many allied soldiers were tried in the Nuremburg war crimes trials ?

This is not always the case, especially in today's world, but a civilized country must adhere to rules regarding warfare.



War crimes trials generally get to the root of the crime.



I don't think it's a question of "believability", but rather one of de-humanization.
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Yeah, de-humanization.

One of the issues that we will continue to face is asymmetric warfare. In essence, at least at the present point in time the US is capable of "outgunning" our enemies. Guerrilla warfare or worse is necessary for them to have a chance of victory against the US. They cannot stand toe to toe and defeat the US. The "rules" go to hell soon after.

I recommend you read, About Face, by Col. David Hackwork and if you can find it and if you do find it and you can pay hundreds of dollars to buy it The Vietnam Primer by Hackwork and S.A. Marshall.
 
Risky Thicket said:
I recommend you read, About Face, by Col. David Hackwork and if you can find it and if you do find it and you can pay hundreds of dollars to buy it The Vietnam Primer by Hackwork and S.A. Marshall.
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I've read a few books about Guerilla War - or COIN as the military calls them

Insurgents can get the occupying troops to do terrible things.
 
Girlpower said:
So soldiers can just decide when they want to follow orders or not and are encouraged not to follow them according to you?
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Under the UCMJ any order that a soldier receives that are: Unconstitutional, criminal in nature, or against the law along with others, that solider doesn't have to obey those orders. For example, if an officer orders a solider to torture an enemy captive to gain information that is an illegal order. Most all soldiers understand the rules of engagement and what they can and can not do, any violation of these can result in a court-martial. Example: Lets say that you are being deployed into a combat area and you feel that it violates the Constitution because you don't agree with the mission and refuse to be deployed, is grounds for a court-martial.
 
Callen said:
What is happening under the guise of getting rid of DEI , whatever that is is is disgusting. There will be so much that the next Administration will need to do to try and unwind this harm.
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So America wasn't a society worth defending before DEI?
You're saying a lot about yourself with that attitude.
 
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