• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

I just want to save lives


"In the case of a rifle, permission for possession is not granted unless the person is a professional hunter; will use it to exterminate harmful animals and birds for the protection of his business; or has had a permit to possess a hunting gun for more than ten years."

The average citizen who wishes to own a rifle has virtually no chance to do so. That would explain why the number of rifles declined 16% over five years.

https://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-control/japan.php
 
If the founding fathers just wanted to write, "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" But wait, they didn't.

So what is it then? Are you capable of explaining it? What was the purpose of the Amendment? Why was it included in a list of individual rights? Is it a reservation of power to the militia? Or to the states? Or is it a “right” of individual militia members to have a government approved weapon while engaged in government approved militia functions?

My response and explanation of the militia preamble is found here: Thread “The militia only interpretation of the 2nd Amendment”, pages 43-44, posts 429-435. Please read them. You will note that I cite authority for my position. You should try it some time. “Bucky on Constitutional Law” has so far proven to be a very short and incorrect tome.

If you look at the history of this statement,

What history? The secret history you keep in your head? Where is there any evidence that you have read any of the actual history? Please cite some.

in the North they had militias to protect the communities however at times they rose up against the federal government where George Washington had to fight those militias on behalf of the U.S. government.

Please, oh pretty please, cite me a single example of this. I am very familiar with the painting of Washington crossing the Delaware River. I have seen no such heroic paintings of his exploits fighting “those militias on behalf of the U.S. Government.”

The only “rising” “in the north” before the Bill of Rights was “Shay’s rebellion”, which was during the time of the Articles of Confederation, so there was no “U.S. Government.” And George Washington was retired at this time. He took no part in suppressing that rebellion. That rebellion did prompt him to come out of retirement and press for a Constitution. But no one had to “fight those militias,” for the “militia” was the one fighting for the government against the rising.

The next “rising” was the “Whisky Rebellion.” Now it is true Washington was President when this started, but he did not “fight those militias on behalf of the U.S. government.” He never fought anyone.

Oh, and this “rebellion” began in 1791. Why is that important? Because the Congress passed the Bill of Rights and sent it out for ratification on September 25, 1789.
How does a “rebellion” that began two years after a document was drafted have any impact on the drafting of that document?

Not a single source cited for the claim that the 2nd Amendment was birthed out of militias in the “North” that “at times rose up against the federal government.” Because none exists.

And—here is the best part—if the 2nd Amendment is not an individual right, but is instead somehow a state’s right to have an effective militia, or some hybrid unexplained “collective military right” aimed at ensuring an effective militia…then how does the emergency of militias in the “north” having “rose up against the federal government”—which, if true, would cause a great deal of handwringing, wailing, death, destruction, expenditure of scarce federal funds, and gnashing of teeth in Washington—give any impetus to a call to include an amendment designed to ensure the future strength of these rebellious entities?

Why do I need to get involved when you argument is so flawed it destroys itself?

And so we see that “Bucky on Early American History” is a tome as short and flawed as the Con Law one.

You, sir, are entitled to your own opinion but you are not entitled to invent your own history. But if you do, then at least do us the courtesy of inventing some that helps your argument.
 

well here is what your article says

You cannot get a rifle in Japan until you have owned a shotgun for at least ten years, some of which you must also have spent hunting. Even then, it is totally up to the discretion of the police whether or not to grant you a rifle licence. The total process is going to take you about two to three months, under optimum conditions.

here is what another source says

Handguns are forbidden absolutely. Small-caliber rifles have been illegal to buy, sell, or transfer since 1971. Anyone who owned a rifle before then is allowed to keep it, but their heirs are required to turn it over to the police once the owner dies.

https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...-virtually-eliminated-shooting-deaths/260189/
 
In the south, they were largely based on slave patrol in case of a slave instruction to shoot and kill those slaves.

Again, feel free to cite me any history from the ratification of either the Constitution or the Bill of Rights that shows the 2nd Amendment was intended to grant a “collective right” that is a “military right” (as you say).

You have nothing.

A militia is necessary to protect our community,

Exactly. This is a statement of principle. Which is exactly what the militia preamble is: “A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state”—a state that does not fear a tyrant usurping the control of the military power. That is all the militia preamble is. A statement that we should rely upon a militia rather than a standing army when possible.

not for an average joe to plant landmines near his home or gain access to rpgs.

And where have I argued for an “average Joe” to have access to landmines or RPGs?

To interpret the constitution as an individual right to arms is not based on original intent.

Why? Because you possess the power of clairvoyance? Because men dead for more than two centuries speak to you in your sleep?

You offer zero evidence for this conclusion.

Cite me a single founding father. Just one. One who supports your view that the right of the people to keep and bear arms is not an individual right.

You have not. Because you cannot. Because none exists.

The reality is, militias (unless referring to the police or national security) are not really relevant to our society today, thus the second amendment is obsolete today.

What other function have they served which is “obsolete” today? I mean really, the very functions of a militia are “police” and “national security.” How can you argue that since the militias today can only perform their primary and original functions of national security and policing—the very reasons they were created to begin with—the 2nd Amendment is obsolete today?

This makes zero sense.

And why? Because the federal government has created other entities that it controls which now adequately provide the secondary services (which you do not name) that the militias used to have to provide? Even if this made any sense—which it does not—you are arguing that the Bill of Rights (which is a list of rights that act as a restriction on the powers of the federal government) is only a restriction on the power of the government until the government can figure out a way to bypass it and create a situation where it can unilaterally claim the restriction is no longer necessary. How can you not see how short-sighted and dangerous your argument is?
 
Now then, since I have addressed what you argue. I have some questions….

If the founding fathers just wanted to write, "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" But wait, they didn't.

I am glad you acknowledge they did include that phrase. To return to the questions you ran away from…

The phrase “the right of the people” appears three times:

1st Amendment: “the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.”

2nd Amendment: “the right of the people to keep and bear arms…”

4th Amendment: “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures…”

So how does this work? Does the exact same phrase “the right of the people” recognize two actual individual “rights” in the 1st Amendment, become transformed into the recognition of a revocable privilege in the 2nd Amendment, only to reemerge as the recognition of an individual “right” in the 4th Amendment?

Does the same language have two completely opposite meanings depending on your personal preference for or dislike of the particular right the phrase refers to?

Or, for the sake of consistency, do you believe the phrase “the right of the people” does not refer to an individual right in any of these Amendments?

Oh, and when the 9th Amendment says: “The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people”—should that actually be read to say “the enumeration in the Constitution, of certain privileges the government can take away...”?

Can you answer these?

Here is another simple one. Article I section 8 says Congress alone has all power over militia arms, and all power to choose who can and cannot be a militia member (with the specific exception of officer appointment reserved to the states). That power is rendered absolute by the Article VI Supremacy Clause. If you limit the RKBA to militia participation, then how can it be called a “right of the people” when Congress totally controls it?

Please tell me what you believe the 2nd Amendment's purpose is. What it protects, and how it protects it. It's not that difficult to do this if you understand your own argument....
 
"In the case of a rifle, permission for possession is not granted unless the person is a professional hunter; will use it to exterminate harmful animals and birds for the protection of his business; or has had a permit to possess a hunting gun for more than ten years."

The average citizen who wishes to own a rifle has virtually no chance to do so. That would explain why the number of rifles declined 16% over five years.

https://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-control/japan.php

Hunters are not average citizens?
 
well here is what your article says

You cannot get a rifle in Japan until you have owned a shotgun for at least ten years, some of which you must also have spent hunting. Even then, it is totally up to the discretion of the police whether or not to grant you a rifle licence. The total process is going to take you about two to three months, under optimum conditions.

here is what another source says

Handguns are forbidden absolutely. Small-caliber rifles have been illegal to buy, sell, or transfer since 1971. Anyone who owned a rifle before then is allowed to keep it, but their heirs are required to turn it over to the police once the owner dies.

https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...-virtually-eliminated-shooting-deaths/260189/

I will agree that some of their restrictions are too strict. I have often said the restrictions in NYC are too strict. But that does not mean that some of their laws are not good ones. Which has always been my point.
 
So what is it then? Are you capable of explaining it? What was the purpose of the Amendment? Why was it included in a list of individual rights? Is it a reservation of power to the militia? Or to the states? Or is it a “right” of individual militia members to have a government approved weapon while engaged in government approved militia functions?

My response and explanation of the militia preamble is found here: Thread “The militia only interpretation of the 2nd Amendment”, pages 43-44, posts 429-435. Please read them. You will note that I cite authority for my position. You should try it some time. “Bucky on Constitutional Law” has so far proven to be a very short and incorrect tome.



What history? The secret history you keep in your head? Where is there any evidence that you have read any of the actual history? Please cite some.



Please, oh pretty please, cite me a single example of this. I am very familiar with the painting of Washington crossing the Delaware River. I have seen no such heroic paintings of his exploits fighting “those militias on behalf of the U.S. Government.”

The only “rising” “in the north” before the Bill of Rights was “Shay’s rebellion”, which was during the time of the Articles of Confederation, so there was no “U.S. Government.” And George Washington was retired at this time. He took no part in suppressing that rebellion. That rebellion did prompt him to come out of retirement and press for a Constitution. But no one had to “fight those militias,” for the “militia” was the one fighting for the government against the rising.

The next “rising” was the “Whisky Rebellion.” Now it is true Washington was President when this started, but he did not “fight those militias on behalf of the U.S. government.” He never fought anyone.

Oh, and this “rebellion” began in 1791. Why is that important? Because the Congress passed the Bill of Rights and sent it out for ratification on September 25, 1789.
How does a “rebellion” that began two years after a document was drafted have any impact on the drafting of that document?

Not a single source cited for the claim that the 2nd Amendment was birthed out of militias in the “North” that “at times rose up against the federal government.” Because none exists.

And—here is the best part—if the 2nd Amendment is not an individual right, but is instead somehow a state’s right to have an effective militia, or some hybrid unexplained “collective military right” aimed at ensuring an effective militia…then how does the emergency of militias in the “north” having “rose up against the federal government”—which, if true, would cause a great deal of handwringing, wailing, death, destruction, expenditure of scarce federal funds, and gnashing of teeth in Washington—give any impetus to a call to include an amendment designed to ensure the future strength of these rebellious entities?

Why do I need to get involved when you argument is so flawed it destroys itself?

And so we see that “Bucky on Early American History” is a tome as short and flawed as the Con Law one.

You, sir, are entitled to your own opinion but you are not entitled to invent your own history. But if you do, then at least do us the courtesy of inventing some that helps your argument.

Do you want a history listen?

The 2nd Amendment had two purposes:

1. Original intent: Standing armies in order to prevent the government to be overthrown.

2. Slave patrol

This is from the founding fathers like Patrick Henry and George Mason.
 
Do you want a history listen?

The 2nd Amendment had two purposes:

1. Original intent: Standing armies in order to prevent the government to be overthrown.

2. Slave patrol

This is from the founding fathers like Patrick Henry and George Mason.

I clicked on every single letter of every word in your post, but none of them took me to a citation via hyperlink. Where are you hiding your cites?
 
I clicked on every single letter of every word in your post, but none of them took me to a citation via hyperlink. Where are you hiding your cites?

From John Paul Stevens:

The Second Amendment was adopted to protect the right of the people of each of the several States to maintain a well-regulated militia. It was a response to concerns raised during the ratification of the Constitution that the power of Congress to disarm the state militias and create a national standing army posed an intolerable threat to the sovereignty of the several States. Neither the text of the Amendment nor the arguments advanced by its proponents evidenced the slightest interest in limiting any legislature’s authority to regulate private civilian uses of firearms. Specifically, there is no indication that the Framers of the Amendment intended to enshrine the common-law right of self-defense in the Constitution.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZD.html

When I joined the court in 1975, that holding was generally understood as limiting the scope of the Second Amendment to uses of arms that were related to military activities. During the years when Warren Burger was chief justice, from 1969 to 1986, no judge or justice expressed any doubt about the limited coverage of the amendment, and I cannot recall any judge suggesting that the amendment might place any limit on state authority to do anything.

Organizations such as the National Rifle Association disagreed with that position and mounted a vigorous campaign claiming that federal regulation of the use of firearms severely curtailed Americans’ Second Amendment rights. Five years after his retirement, during a 1991 appearance on “The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour,” Burger himself remarked that the Second Amendment “has been the subject of one of the greatest pieces of fraud, I repeat the word ‘fraud,’ on the American public by special interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime.”

“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms when serving in the Militia shall not be infringed.”

Emotional claims that the right to possess deadly weapons is so important that it is protected by the federal Constitution distort intelligent debate about the wisdom of particular aspects of proposed legislation designed to minimize the slaughter caused by the prevalence of guns in private hands. Those emotional arguments would be nullified by the adoption of my proposed amendment. The amendment certainly would not silence the powerful voice of the gun lobby; it would merely eliminate its ability to advance one mistaken argument.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...2c36d2b1245_story.html?utm_term=.a4bb29e70de7
 
I will agree that some of their restrictions are too strict. I have often said the restrictions in NYC are too strict. But that does not mean that some of their laws are not good ones. Which has always been my point.

why don't you just tell us which rules of theirs that you think are good ones

is it the extreme expense to get a license?

is it that the police can arbitrarily deny you a license and you have no recourse in the courts

is it the fact you have to own a shotgun for 10 years to get a hunting rifle (assuming that is true)
 
why don't you just tell us which rules of theirs that you think are good ones

is it the extreme expense to get a license?

is it that the police can arbitrarily deny you a license and you have no recourse in the courts

is it the fact you have to own a shotgun for 10 years to get a hunting rifle (assuming that is true)

I did. I posted this exact thing. If you can not read the thread then don't complain to me
 
I did. I posted this exact thing. If you can not read the thread then don't complain to me

You are arguing with a guy that thinks every gun law is a form of harrasment to gun owners.

TurtleDude is the king of cicrular reasoning.
 

Stevens was the most leftwing justice at the time he spewed that nonsense. His dissent was one of the most idiotic I can recall reading-his main point was this


"I cannot imagine the founders NOT GIVING the government the power to regulate firearms so I assume that they wanted it to have that power"

yeah that is his basic argument along with the holding of LOWER COURTS that deliberately read Cruikshank (the constitution does not CREATE a right to KBA) to say there is no right, should have been binding authority on the Supreme Court. He admitted, essentially, how stupid his argument was when after he left the court, he tried to argue the second amendment should be re-written to only apply to those in the government service (which suggests he was senile at the time since the government was not intended to be given any powers in the bill of rights)

BTW Stevens was the Dissenting Opinion. He LOST
 
You are arguing with a guy that thinks every gun law is a form of harrasment to gun owners.

TurtleDude is the king of cicrular reasoning.

Your posts have demonstrated absolutely no reasoning Bucky. you constantly change your mind-first you are for complete bans, then not, then yes, then you admit your goal is to harass honest gun owners. You and vegas are just mad that I and a couple other posters, know this topic inside and out and you and vegas have to google stuff and spew it back without understanding it
 
You are arguing with a guy that thinks every gun law is a form of harrasment to gun owners.

TurtleDude is the king of cicrular reasoning.

Like I don't know. He thinks an actual form is harassment. LOL
 
Stevens was the most leftwing justice at the time he spewed that nonsense. His dissent was one of the most idiotic I can recall reading-his main point was this

"I cannot imagine the founders NOT GIVING the government the power to regulate firearms so I assume that they wanted it to have that power"

yeah that is his basic argument along with the holding of LOWER COURTS that deliberately read Cruikshank (the constitution does not CREATE a right to KBA) to say there is no right, should have been binding authority on the Supreme Court. He admitted, essentially, how stupid his argument was when after he left the court, he tried to argue the second amendment should be re-written to only apply to those in the government service (which suggests he was senile at the time since the government was not intended to be given any powers in the bill of rights)

BTW Stevens was the Dissenting Opinion. He LOST

LOL!

It was a 5-4 decision. The court overturned years of precedent and went against stare decisis.

Everything Stevens said in Heller was 100% correct.
 
Your posts have demonstrated absolutely no reasoning Bucky. you constantly change your mind-first you are for complete bans, then not, then yes, then you admit your goal is to harass honest gun owners. You and vegas are just mad that I and a couple other posters, know this topic inside and out and you and vegas have to google stuff and spew it back without understanding it

I am my own man. You lose with me because you have a bad argument and then derail with personal attacks
 

"The question presented by this case is not whether the Second Amendment protects a “collective right” or an “individual right.” Surely it protects a right that can be enforced by individuals. But a conclusion that the Second Amendment protects an individual right does not tell us anything about the scope of that right."

"Americans also have a right to defend their homes, and we need not challenge that. Nor does anyone seriously question that the Constitution protects the right of hunters to own and keep sporting guns for hunting game"

Burger declares the right to own firearms outside of a militia right there.

Ex-Chief Justice Warren Burger in Parade Magazine

More on Burger: Warren Burger and the Second Amendment

Here's the opening paragraph of the Gun Control Act of 1968, the second major gun control legislation in the history of our country:

"Sec. 101. The Congress hereby declares that the purpose of this title is to provide support to Federal, State, and local law enforcement officials in their fight against crime and violence, and it is not the purpose of this title to place any undue or unnecessary Federal restrictions or burdens on law-abiding citizens w T ith respect to the acquisition , possession, or use of firearms appropriate to the purpose of hunting, trapshooting, target shooting, personal protection, or any other lawful activity, and that this title is not intended to discourage or eliminate the private ownership or use of firearms by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes, or provide for the imposition by Federal regulations of any procedures or requirements other than those reasonably necessary to implement and effectuate the provisions of this title."

In the text of this law, the word "citizen" appears twice; the word "individual" appears 7 times; the word "person" appears 103 times. The word "militia" does not appear a single time, nor does it appear in the 1986 Firearm Owner Protection Act, the 1993 Brady Act, the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban or in the 1996 Lautenberg Amendment.

Full text:

https://archive.org/stream/GunContr..._1968_Pub_Law_90-618_82_Stat_Pg_1213_djvu.txt
 
LOL!

It was a 5-4 decision. The court overturned years of precedent and went against stare decisis.

There had never been a federal law limiting firearms to militia membership. You should read Cruikshank.

Everything Stevens said in Heller was 100% correct.

Like that the right is an individual right?
 
Here is some interesting comments on the specious nature of Stevens' Dissent

The Volokh Conspiracy - What is the right protected in the Heller dissent?

Having read Scalia and Stevens in Heller, it's clear that you're on the right track. The Stevens right is a right without an application. It's not even a right in search of an application. It's an individual right to own a gun in the home, but only if the gun mysteriously appears in the home without connection to reality outside the home and that mysterious materialization of the gun.

It is essentially a right that can be so completely and absolutely infringed as to not exist at all. It's rather like a right to freedom of speech, but only if you own a multi million dollar digital printing press manufactured by only one company between July and August of 2006.
 
Breyer on Heller
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZD1.html
“ Thus I here assume that one objective (but, as the majority concedes, ante, at 26, not the primary objective) of those who wrote the Second Amendment was to help assure citizens that they would have arms available for purposes of self-defense.”
 
I clicked on every single letter of every word in your post, but none of them took me to a citation via hyperlink. Where are you hiding your cites?

He just makes the crap up. The slave patrol idiocy has been destroyed dozens of times. It was a theory advanced by a fourth rate legal scholar teaching at a third rate law school-Carl Bogus Jr (yeah Bogus). Akhil Reed Amar-holder of the most prestigious legal academic position in the world-Sterling Professor of Constitutional Law at Yale, has destroyed that nonsense as have other first tier scholars noting that some of the most anti slave states had similar provisions in their own constitutions. Bucky-the guy who claims he can outshoot Rucker and I despite not having a clue about guns, is ignorant of American Legal scholarship on this issue and how one sided it is. There is absolutely no supreme court precedent that held that the second amendment was a collective right. that was garbage from LOWER courts that was based on a deliberate misreading of Cruikshank
 
Back
Top Bottom