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Hydroxychloroquine and Chloroquine for Thousands in New York (1 Viewer)

Thanks for letting me know what a control group is.

All the people in my research group will be very upset they didn’t know this after decades of thinking they did.

Boy, this is going to make it so much easier with the FDA. [emoji849]

"Observational studies are ones where researchers observe the effect of a risk factor, diagnostic test, treatment or other intervention without trying to change who is or isn’t exposed to it. Cohort studies and case control studies are two types of observational studies."

Observational vs. experimental studies

www.iwh.on.ca › what-researchers-mean-by › observational-vs-experi...
W0ssuFttRX kUqllATQgzNwpx6wCQYKlHqvXQAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==





Experimental studies are usually randomized, meaning the subjects are grouped by chance. Randomized controlled trial (RCT): Eligible people are randomly ...
 
That is quite true. It is also true that the dosage being "recommended" for COVID-19 is much higher than the dosage recommended for lupus. Digitalis is quite a safe drug when used at its normal levels and for the conditions for which it is recommended. I wouldn't advise anyone to take a triple size dose of Digitalis - even if they did have the condition for which it is recommended.

Not to butt in here, but are you telling people on the forum that they are NOT to take a drug no matter what their doctor tells them? Doctors decide on dosages.
 
"Observational studies are ones where researchers observe the effect of a risk factor, diagnostic test, treatment or other intervention without trying to change who is or isn’t exposed to it. Cohort studies and case control studies are two types of observational studies."

Observational vs. experimental studies

www.iwh.on.ca › what-researchers-mean-by › observational-vs-experi...
W0ssuFttRX kUqllATQgzNwpx6wCQYKlHqvXQAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==





Experimental studies are usually randomized, meaning the subjects are grouped by chance. Randomized controlled trial (RCT): Eligible people are randomly ...

Glad you’re learning about this.

Get back to me in a few decades.
 
Kinda like Trump who shouldn’t recommend trying HCQ?

But to that you say what as a doctor?

I don't get why Democrats keep wanting to yank the rug from beneath the feet of patients? Can you explain that?
 
He's a trust fund baby. The money comes from his daddy and the federal government.

When Democrats blurt out such things, you owe it to yourself to supply proof. Not merely a link, but a link that actually proves a point that demonstrates common sense along with lack of bias.
 
Glad you’re learning about this.

Get back to me in a few decades.

I have only read Jack Hays now since last year and the man proves over and over how intelligent and astute he is. He takes guff I sure do not plan to take.
 
But to that you say what as a doctor?

I don't get why Democrats keep wanting to yank the rug from beneath the feet of patients? Can you explain that?

I can explain, but given your posting history, you likely won’t understand.
 
Don’t know if you grasp that that is whatt the bolded part means. I’m guessing not.

No guessing necessary, and no need to say you don't know. I think the answer, regarding what this poster grasps or doesn't grasp, is pretty clear.
 
Kinda like Trump who shouldn’t recommend trying HCQ?

And the way he recommended it was quite creepy.

It is one thing to mention possible drug therapies that are being tried.

But for him to make like it is a safe drug with no reason not to try it....is reprehensible.

I hope it is going to pan out. But the determination needs to be made in an intelligent manner.

For example - if you are giving it in conjunction with Z-pack....how do they know it wasn't the z-pack that was more effective? They find out through scientific method. Not because a snake oil sales man told you it works.
 
Do you have ANY proof of your insinuations? Link

It's all in the link I provided.
The Job Creators Network was founded in 2011 by billionaire Home Depot co-founder Bernard Marcus, a major GOP donor who spent more than $7 million through outside groups to help elect Trump in 2016. Marcus has said that he plans to spend part of his fortune to help re-elect Trump in 2020.

Job Creators Network has been funded by Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America (PhRMA), a drug industry trade that counts among its members leading hydroxychloroquine makers Novartis, Teva Pharmaceuticals, and Bayer. According to tax documents, PhRMA donated $500,000 to Job Creators Network in 2017.
Can you honestly look at yourself in the mirror and say that this isn't about making piles of money for Trump and his inner circle?
 
When Democrats blurt out such things, you owe it to yourself to supply proof. Not merely a link, but a link that actually proves a point that demonstrates common sense along with lack of bias.

Hang on. You don't know about Trump's daddy giving him gobs of money?
 
The doctor with the largest lupus practice in the country and who has prescribes thousands of dosages of Hydroxychloroquine says he has never had a complication from it other than allergic reactions. He said its safely profile at the dosage they are using is very good. Its a Doctors job to know how to use the medication safely. Even oxygen can kill the wrong patient.'

I don't doubt that, but I'm pretty sure this good doctor checks the QTc of his patients before he prescribes it, and monitors if there was any increase after they start using it. And then, adding azithromycin increases the risk of QTc prolongation. Again, I have nothing against the use of these drugs with medical supervision while we wait for conclusive, well-designed trials. Desperate times, desperate measures. But it does need to be under good supervision given that risks do exist. What I didn't like is people hoarding the drug and its stock in pharmacies going sold out 24 hours after a non-doctor, non-scientist touted it as a miracle cure and as a preventative measure, which can lead to self-medication and unsupervised use.

The other issue is that presumably these lupus and RA patients are not already suffering of virus-induced myocarditis.

What the American College of Cardiologists and the American Heart Association are warning against, is that indiscriminate use of this combination HCQ + Azithromycin for people who are already showing heart compromise, may be quite risky, indeed. In a study linked to here by Threegoofs, 11% of such patients showed QTc above 500 which is darn dangerous.

Now, think of it: the virus is killing at best 1% of people who have it... but if you get 11% with high risk of fatal arrhythmia for a treatment that hasn't been really demonstrated to work yet, you may end up with a case of risks outweighing benefits.

Mind you, a theoretical risk is not the same as dead people, so presumably not all the people with QTc above 500 will die of cardiac arrest because of it. And also, the more severe cases will have a death rate above 1%. So what I'm saying is not absolute, but it does encourage prudence, which is exactly why the two most prestigious associations of cardiologists in the United States are warning us against it.

All that I'm saying is that the jury is still out, and I'd appreciate if non-doctor, non-scientist politicians stopped dispensing medical advice, and allowed the doctors and scientists to sort it out.

Like I said, if I were severely ill with COVID-19 and my doctor wanted to give me this combination (hopefully after checking my QTc), I'd take it. I'd take remdesivir too, if I had access to it. I'd do that on the odds that maybe the studies will end up showing that these medications are effective against the SARS-CoV-2. I'd understand that since the virus kills in 2-3 weeks after symptoms start, I wouldn't have the time to wait for the studies to conclude.

But this doesn't mean that I believe that the efficacy of these treatments has been already solidly demonstrated. All that we have so far, is a bunch of anecdotal, uncontrolled reports, and the few (and small) studies already published aren't that encouraging... when they aren't plain discouraging. Even the initial one by the Marseille professor, while it did show an advantage in test results (lower viral load, negativation of tests), it was actually discouraging regarding outcomes (the treated group actually fared worse than the non-treated group; 12% of the treated group ended up in the ICU and 4% died, while 0% and 0% happened in the non-treated group - not very encouraging, huh???). I read two other studies showing no benefit whatsoever. Still, I'd try them, if no alternative were available and my situation were desperate.
 
Kinda like Trump who shouldn’t recommend trying HCQ?
Trump said it appeared that Hydroxychloroquine showed promise and it remains to be seen if it works or not. He NEVER recommended its use or a dosage amount to be used. If he did please link to the video clip of him saying he recommended its use or dosage to be used. LINK?
 
Glad we agree . Then why bring it up?

You mean other than him saying he's the greatest of the greatest at everything when his daddy basically bailed him out from failure after failure?
 
And what is wrong with getting money from a rich parent. Wish mine were rich. :lol:

If these people didn't have jealousy, victimhood and hate they would be out of business. This similar to if terrorists didn't have terrorism.
 
You misunderstood. I wasn't implying you were the only one to exhibit the same pattern. That's what makes patterns easy to recognize. They're patterns.
I didn't really think you voted for Trump.

If it was during a briefing, the quote would have had some hits too. I know he said "What have you got to lose" because he has said it a lot about other things including why minorities tend to vote for Democratics.
And it's true about the Virus too.
And I know he's been pushing HCQ.

But you put "Take hydroxychloroquine, you have nothing to lose." in quotes and said "Trump did issue these exact words, in a tweeter."
Now, I don't care that you made the mistake about a tweet, but I couldn't find those words you quoted in any briefing transcript.
And I assume you looked and couldn't find them either or you'd have posted it here ... maybe even accompanied by an emoji showing some degree of self-satisfaction.
It's not a big deal.

Jesus... I looked once, googled once, found the link I gave you, and moved on. But yes, he did say it, and not in the context of black people voting for him, which he also did but it's a much older quote. He said this exactly in the context of HCQ, that people should use it, what do they have to lose? My ONLY mistake was that among the thousands of pages I've read on this, my memory betrayed me in thinking it was in a tweet, when it was in a briefing. But he did say it, and I showed it to you, but you are now moving the goal posts.

As for your superior ability to understand my "pattern", pardon me if for a change, I do post a smiley: :lamo

Dear, you can't even understand what I say... you keep putting words in my mouth... you keep being terribly mistaken about this whole thing... so pardon me if I have no trust whatsoever in your ability to see patterns, or your ability to understand just about anything, actually.

I'm about to tune you out permanently like I did for Jack Hays... because it becomes quite tiresome to debate with someone so sorely misguided.
 
Trump said it appeared that Hydroxychloroquine showed promise and it remains to be seen if it works or not. He NEVER recommended its use or a dosage amount to be used. If he did please link to the video clip of him saying he recommended its use or dosage to be used. LINK?

You are right that Trump never mentioned a dosage, but yes, he did say people should try it, and added that they have nothing to lose. In this very thread I posted a link. Please, don't deny the obvious.
 
I don't doubt that, but I'm pretty sure this good doctor checks the QTc of his patients before he prescribes it, and monitors if there was any increase after they start using it. And then, adding azithromycin increases the risk of QTc prolongation. Again, I have nothing against the use of these drugs with medical supervision while we wait for conclusive, well-designed trials. Desperate times, desperate measures. But it does need to be under good supervision given that risks do exist. What I didn't like is people hoarding the drug and its stock in pharmacies going sold out 24 hours after a non-doctor, non-scientist touted it as a miracle cure and as a preventative measure, which can lead to self-medication and unsupervised use.
Actually he doesn't monitor that unless the patient has a significant cardiac history and then they get a EKG before starting HCQ.

T
he other issue is that presumably these lupus and RA patients are not already suffering of virus-induced myocarditis.

What the American College of Cardiologists and the American Heart Association are warning against, is that indiscriminate use of this combination HCQ + Azithromycin for people who are already showing heart compromise, may be quite risky, indeed. In a study linked to here by Threegoofs, 11% of such patients showed QTc above 500 which is darn dangerous.
Trump said it HCQ shows promise he never said it should be used much less use without adequate medical supervision. So what is your complaint? Also it seems to work better if started earlier and helps prevent people from progressing to intubation . About half the people who advance to intubation die.NO ONE EVER SAID HCQ was for every patient. Remember thousands of doctors in dozens of countries are using it with their patients.

Now, think of it: the virus is killing at best 1% of people who have it... but if you get 11% with high risk of fatal arrhythmia for a treatment that hasn't been really demonstrated to work yet, you may end up with a case of risks outweighing benefits.

Mind you, a theoretical risk is not the same as dead people, so presumably not all the people with QTc above 500 will die of cardiac arrest because of it. And also, the more severe cases will have a death rate above 1%. So what I'm saying is not absolute, but it does encourage prudence, which is exactly why the two most prestigious associations of cardiologists in the United States are warning us against it.
They have recommended it not be used in select patients. There are many patient that it is being used safely in right now. As a physician you would agree that every drug is not for every patient...correct? HCQ is no different.

All that I'm saying is that the jury is still out, and I'd appreciate if non-doctor, non-scientist politicians stopped dispensing medical advice, and allowed the doctors and scientists to sort it out.
Trump simply said it showed promise and thousands of doctors agree with him.


Like I said, if I were severely ill with COVID-19 and my doctor wanted to give me this combination (hopefully after checking my QTc), I'd take it. I'd take remdesivir too, if I had access to it. I'd do that on the odds that maybe the studies will end up showing that these medications are effective against the SARS-CoV-2. I'd understand that since the virus kills in 2-3 weeks after symptoms start, I wouldn't have the time to wait for the studies to conclude.
So would I.

But this doesn't mean that I believe that the efficacy of these treatments has been already solidly demonstrated. All that we have so far, is a bunch of anecdotal, uncontrolled reports, and the few (and small) studies already published aren't that encouraging... when they aren't plain discouraging. Even the initial one by the Marseille professor, while it did show an advantage in test results (lower viral load, negativation of tests), it was actually discouraging regarding outcomes (the treated group actually fared worse than the non-treated group; 12% of the treated group ended up in the ICU and 4% died, while 0% and 0% happened in the non-treated group - not very encouraging, huh???). I read two other studies showing no benefit whatsoever. Still, I'd try them, if no alternative were available and my situation were desperate.
Many time when a established drug is later approved for use in another disease its preceded with anecdotal evidence.

Remember John Lykoudis and the use of antibiotics to treat gastric ulcers? He was first notice people on antibiotics healing their peptic ulcers LONG before any study had been conducted.
 
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Trump said it appeared that Hydroxychloroquine showed promise and it remains to be seen if it works or not. He NEVER recommended its use or a dosage amount to be used. If he did please link to the video clip of him saying he recommended its use or dosage to be used. LINK?

Links are out there. He clearly said ‘use it. Waddya gotta lose?’.

But I guess he didn’t specify a dose, so that’s just fantastic advice. [emoji849]
 
Actually he doesn't monitor that unless the patient has a significant cardiac history and then they get a EKG before starting HCQ.

TTrump said it HCQ shows promise he never said it should be used much less use without adequate medical supervision. So what is your complaint? Also it seems to work better if started earlier and helps prevent people from progressing to intubation . About half the people who advance to intubation die.NO ONE EVER SAID HCQ was for every patient. Remember thousands of doctors in dozens of countries are using it with their patients.

They have recommended it not be used in select patients. There are many patient that it is being used safely in right now. As a physician you would agree that every drug is not for every patient...correct? HCQ is no different.

Trump simply said it showed promise and thousands of doctors agree with him.


So would I.

Many time when a established drug is later approved for use in another disease its preceded with anecdotal evidence.

Remember John Lykoudis and the use of antibiotics to treat gastric ulcers? He was first notice people on antibiotics healing their peptic ulcers LONG before any study had been conducted.

What select patients?

Patients with normal QTc baselines?

Guess what?

That’s not predictive of developing Torsades.

You know what is very predictive?

Acute renal failure.

So, don’t use it in people who develop ARF?

Nice idea, but that’s not easy to predict.

And discontinuing the drug after they get oliguria is a nice idea, but the T 1/2 of HCQ is.....22 days.
 
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Actually he doesn't monitor that
ETC

About your good doctor only checking QTc for people with a cardiac history: not safe. He should do better. Think of ziprasidone, for example. It's notorious for QTc prolongation but the FDA insert doesn't go far enough to recommend an EKG check before prescribing it, although it does contain the warning about the QTc. Me, I have NEVER prescribed it without checking an EKG first, regardless of cardiac history, especially because patients are not always reliable historians, and people with an isolated QTc prolongation don't necessarily have any other cardiac symptom, and they may have it without knowing about it, especially if it is just below the dangerous threshold (but would be pushed above it if given a drug that prolongs QTc). Not to forget, the drug prolongs the QT interval in people that previously had it normal, too, so it's advisable to check it again after initiation.

Dear, read this. It's in the freaking FDA insert for HCQ:

Postmarketing cases of life-threatening and fatal cardiomyopathy have been reported with use of hydroxychloroquine sulfate as well as with use of chloroquine. Patients may present with atrioventricular block, pulmonary hypertension, sick sinus syndrome or with cardiac complications. ECG findings may include atrioventricular, right or left bundle branch block. Signs or symptoms of cardiac compromise have appeared during acute and chronic treatment. Clinical monitoring for signs and symptoms of cardiomyopathy is advised, including use of appropriate diagnostic tools such as ECG to monitor patients for cardiomyopathy during hydroxychloroquine sulfate therapy. Chronic toxicity should be considered when conduction disorders (bundle branch block/atrio-ventricular heart block) or biventricular hypertrophy are diagnosed. If cardiotoxicity is suspected, prompt discontinuation of hydroxychloroquine sulfate may prevent life-threatening complications.

Hydroxychloroquine sulfate prolongs the QT interval. Ventricular arrhythmias and torsades de pointes have been reported in patients taking hydroxychloroquine sulfate (see OVERDOSAGE). Therefore, hydroxychloroquine sulfate should not be administered with other drugs that have the potential to prolong the QT interval (see DRUG INTERACTIONS).

So, if this "good doctor" chooses to pay little attention to this, and boasts that he hasn't encountered any problems... this is only good until... he does encounter one. That's how people get sued for malpractice.

Again, no, it's not true that Trump never told people to use it. Unfortunately, he did. To his credit he did say "as long as your doctor agrees" but this didn't stop people from rushing to the pharmacy to hoard the medication. You'll say, well, some doctor did agree because it's a prescription medicine, not over-the-counter. It sure is, but there are loopholes, unfortunately, like prescription mills online, or complacent, naive doctors who will write a script if someone insists very strongly.

This is so true, that I posted here a letter from my State Medical Board to all licensees, lamenting this situation and urging people to stop this practice.

So, Trump's "as long as your doctor agrees" wasn't good enough. What people heard was "take it, you have nothing to lose."

Yes, thousands of doctors agree... not a single one of them, able to quote solid scientific evidence that it works, for the simple fact that there isn't any, yet. In May we may have some, but not yet. Those opinions are of very little value. I've mentioned here that I've personally seen many doctors, on the clinical side of clinical trials, when their patients were recruited for a randomized double blind trial, swearing that the drug was working and stating they were sure their patients were taking the active drug... just to be surprised at the end, when the envelopes were opened, and their patients were taking... placebo. I don't much value this kind of impression when a condition only kills 1% of patients and 99% recover. All these wonderful anecdotes include no proof that these people wouldn't have recovered just as well without HCQ. Only a double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled trial with a sufficient number of subjects and field-validated outcome measures will provide the answer, but we haven't had those, yet, so, hold your horses.

Continued below
 
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Continued from above

Now, is observational data useless? Not entirely. I like to use an analogy. Suppose you are trying to find an effective treatment for a disease called Gravitational Challenge, which makes people die if they jump from an airplane. You formulate the hypothesis that parachutes are an effective treatment for this fatal illness. So you pair subjects by body weight and skills in using a parachute, panic levels, etc, randomize them blindly to two groups, equipping one group with real parachutes (active treatment arm), and another one with fake parachutes (placebo arm) that look, weigh, and feel like the real thing including the little cord to pull, but they are placebo parachutes; when you pull the cord they don't open. OK, then, you get your 300 subjects, 150 with placebo parachutes and 150 with active parachutes, and you push them all out of an airplane. Result: 100% of the ones with active parachutes survive, and 100% of the ones with placebo parachutes die. Wow, that's the ultimate separation from placebo! p number infinitely small. So, you have thoroughly demonstrated that parachutes are an effective treatment for Gravitational Challenge.

What's wrong with this? Simple. The Institutional Review Board will not allow you to run this study, because killing 150 of your subjects is not nice. Not ethical. So, a randomized, double-blind placebo-controlled trial of parachutes can't be performed.

Does that mean that parachutes don't work?

No. You have observational data showing that they do work, because you can observe people floating slowly to the ground when they jump from an airplane wearing a good parachute.

So, when you don't have what is called the Gold Standard of evidence (double-blind etc) you make do with a lower category of evidence, observational data.

But it doesn't mean you shouldn't have the Gold Standard WHEN IT IS POSSIBLE, and unlike the treatment of Gravitational Challenge with parachutes, in the case of HCQ and COVID-19, it *is* possible to run Gold Standard studies, and they are actually happening already, as we speak (but haven't concluded yet).

So, in this situation, while like I said, I'd rely on the observational data in a desperate situation, I wouldn't say it's been proven yet, and I would still hope for real proof when the real studies conclude.

As long as the Gold Standard is applicable, what anecdotal evidence yields, is the generation of a hypothesis. That's precisely what the op ed in the Annals of Internal Medicine said (I posted it here, too), that the initial study in Marseille was AT BEST a hypothesis-generating one.

Medicine, however is filled to the brink of observational hypotheses that don't fulfill their promise, and even, small pilot studies that even when well designed, are not confirmed by larger subsequent studies. I'd say, this is more the rule than the exception, actually. There are way more negative studies than positive studies. You don't know that, because most negative studies don't get published. But it's more the rule than the exception that a small - AND VERY POORLY DESIGNED (I read it) - study like the Marseille one, doesn't get replicated when larger and better designed ones are performed.

So, the jury is still out.
 
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