Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum[W:234]

GBFAN · Sep 29, 2014

sangha said:
Agreed, but the right wing is not asking for increased and more demanding exposure. They're asking for less.

You're 100% wrong ... you have completely flipflopped the discussion.

BTW --- I notice you haven't gotten all spun up about "Texas rewriting History". http://www.debatepolitics.com/education/205692-texas-trying-rewrite-our-history-entire-country.html

I don't see you over there demanding proof ... but then, the propaganda favors your position, so you accept it without critical thought. i suggest you go apply the same level of critical review you THINK you're giving this one.

Fiddytree · Sep 29, 2014

GBFAN said:
You're exactly correct ---- the current curriculum only uses Native American history as a foil to prove the follies of capitalism, free market economics, and the latent aggressiveness of European Americans.

I can remember a time when we actually studied Native American history ... I can still draw the map of the Indian tribes in the Midwest. I'm guessing that's not so true of today's student. It was a high school history class that got me hooked on studying the Anasazi tribe and its disappearance in 1320 (which was, and still is, a very gripping mystery). I'm guessing today's student has never even heard of the Anasazi tribe. We had to study the Iroquois Confederacy, and its impact on the US Constitution. Again, I'm pretty much convinced you can't find a student today that's aware of it. (By the way, it's an interesting side note that the Iroquois Confederacy was developed by a woman).

THAT is the difference in teaching history ... and using history as a political indoctrination tool.

While that is impressive, even this tells me that your education in Native Americans frequently necessarily rested on their interactions with white civilizations, rather than intrinsically for their own sake.

It's a utilitarian decision, but also one which one could argue is a reflection of manifest destiny and minority social and political consciousness over the past century.

Karl · Sep 29, 2014

Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

sangha said:
[...] the school board member [Williams] is claiming that she doesn't know and the committee is meant to merely investigate what is being taught which is just as much a lie as GBFAN's non-existent report. The committee has been given the power to censor the curriculum

Well, the answer is right here (from your link in post #2):

The language in the second half of the resolution is virtually identical to language adopted by the Texas Board of Education. School board member Julie Williams, who sponsored the proposal, said people have misinterpreted what she’s trying to do. She said she’s not trying to eliminate the facts of U.S. history but shares the concerns conservatives nationally have outlined [...]

- See more at: JeffCo teachers, students protest proposal to promote 'patriotism' in history classes | CPR

This is one of those Koch-inspired politically ploys I outlined earlier... attack and overcome from within. Similar to ALEC in application, they distribute this boilerplate stuff from state to state, getting it passed/implemented wherever they can (read: Red states). Williams is most likely a clueless pawn, just doing what her handlers tell her to. She may not even know what is in the proposal she submitted; my suspicion is that it was most likely provided to her. For anyone familiar with current events over the past few years (or maybe as far back as the past decade) the Texas B of E has also been involved in rewriting textbooks to be more 'patriotic' and less inclusive of 'bad things'.

Among the [conservative-controlled Texas Board of Education] changes: [Texas] Students would be required to learn about the “unintended consequences” of Title IX, affirmative action, and the Great Society, and would need to study conservative icons like Phyllis Schlafly, the Heritage Foundation, and the Moral Majority.

The slave trade would be renamed the “Atlantic triangular trade,” American “imperialism” changed to “expansionism,” and all references to “capitalism” have been replaced with “free enterprise.”

Texas textbook war: 'Slavery' or 'Atlantic triangular trade'? - CSMonitor.com

The Heritage foundation and the "Atlantic triangular trade". OMG.

GBFAN · Sep 29, 2014

Fiddytree said:
While that is impressive, even this tells me that your education in Native Americans frequently necessarily rested on their interactions with white civilizations, rather than intrinsically for their own sake.

It's a utilitarian decision, but also one which one could argue is a reflection of manifest destiny and minority social and political consciousness over the past century.

You're exactly right ... to a point. Some have a hereditary interest in Native American history. But, most assuredly, understanding the Native American communities was necessary to prove proper perspective to the interactions between whites and Indians. That is exactly the point of the school board ... instead of simply holding Wounded Knee up as an example of the white atrocities, and demeaning white aggression, there should be a corresponding discussion of the New Ulm Massacre and Native American aggression. We should have enough faith in our teenagers that they are able to assimilate ALL the facts and make an appropriate judgement, rather than using the class to further political aims.

All that notwithstanding, though, the use of the students as negotiating pawns in the labor discussions by the teachers' union is unconscionable.

sangha · Sep 29, 2014

GBFAN said:
You're 100% wrong ... you have completely flipflopped the discussion.

BTW --- I notice you haven't gotten all spun up about "Texas rewriting History". http://www.debatepolitics.com/education/205692-texas-trying-rewrite-our-history-entire-country.html

I don't see you over there demanding proof ... but then, the propaganda favors your position, so you accept it without critical thought. i suggest you go apply the same level of critical review you THINK you're giving this one.

There you go using that Rule #14 again - if you can't attack the message, attack the messenger

SheWolf · Sep 29, 2014

lol... your challenge is non sequitur. People have right to protest and disobey whatever form of government they choose to protest and disobey. Neither you nor I get to play the thought police in terms of deciding what, where, and when people get to disobey and protest.

As for your philosophical definition of rights and protest, it is meaningless to this discussion. Without government there is no recognition of rights. I don't accept Natural Rights Philosophy as a logical explanation of the world or a sociological explanation of recorded and substantive human behavior. We know a lot more about ancient humans and human life prior to modern concepts of government and economic fairness than we did in the time of Enlightenment Thinkers.

ernst barkmann said:
you say you want to teach the constitution, now explain to me what is being taught..... to blindly do.

Rosa parks protested authority she did not turn to violate action, the Boston tea party was not a protest, because it involved the destruction of property, nothing can be a protest if it violates property, because protesting is a right, nothing can be a right which involves the destruction, stealing, cheating of property.

please state for me, laws, governments, authority which you should not obey.

sangha · Sep 29, 2014

Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

Karl said:
Well, the answer is right here (from your link in post #2):

This is one of those Koch-inspired politically ploys I outlined earlier... attack and overcome from within. Similar to ALEC in application, they distribute this boilerplate stuff from state to state, getting it passed/implemented wherever they can (read: Red states). Williams is most likely a clueless pawn, just doing what her handlers tell her to. She may not even know what is in the proposal she submitted; my suspicion is that it was most likely provided to her. For anyone familiar with current events over the past few years (or maybe as far back as the past decade) the Texas B of E has also been involved in rewriting textbooks to be more 'patriotic' and less inclusive of 'bad things'.

The Heritage foundation and the "Atlantic triangular trade". OMG.

Yes, I posted about that earlier in the thread. In my post, I quoted a school board member referring to the TX school board's action in a flattering way

VanceMack · Sep 29, 2014

Fiddytree said:
Granted the course is history in this case, but would you consider an adequate education in which the educator continuously upholds the notion that each idea is to be held with equal value and that when the students graduated, they should be no more intellectually able to subscribe to capitalism, democracy, the necessity to follow laws, and so on as they would to embrace anarchy and totalitarianism? Should racism and genocide be held to equal representation of worthwhile ideologies and tactics?

I would love to believe that educators had the integrity to offer students the opportunity to explore history without projecting bias. I think 'history' indicates many teachers arent capable of that, and that is truly a shame. I think it is very valuable to study the entire historical perspective of pre and post war WW1 Germany to gain a better understanding of how someone like Adolph Hitler can rise to prominence and power. I think it is valuable to understand slavery as it existed in all its varying forms. The study of racism? Great...study a historical perspective of race and racism...that would be an eye opener. As I have said earlier in this thread...my best professors have been those that challenged people to study and explore all different perspectives...not just the one they agree with.

I dont want to see a teacher attempting to indoctrinate from a liberal slant any more than a conservative charter school English instructor assigning critical analysis of scripture from the bible.

sangha · Sep 29, 2014

GBFAN said:
You're exactly right ... to a point. Some have a hereditary interest in Native American history. But, most assuredly, understanding the Native American communities was necessary to prove proper perspective to the interactions between whites and Indians. That is exactly the point of the school board ... instead of simply holding Wounded Knee up as an example of the white atrocities, and demeaning white aggression, there should be a corresponding discussion of the New Ulm Massacre and Native American aggression. We should have enough faith in our teenagers that they are able to assimilate ALL the facts and make an appropriate judgement, rather than using the class to further political aims.

All that notwithstanding, though, the use of the students as negotiating pawns in the labor discussions by the teachers' union is unconscionable.

Claims we should teach more about Native American history

Links article which complains that the new curriculum spends too much time on Native American history.

Karl · Sep 29, 2014

Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

GBFAN said:
Nope -- didn't say that at all ... the report was referenced in previous posts [...]

I asked you for directions to one of those previous posts and you did not reply.

I now ask you again. What post?

Karl said:
Where's the report on the liberal "censoring, massaging, and manipulating" of the current curriculum? (there's 647 posts in this thread, if you're going to task others with formulating your argument for you then you need to at least point them to the material).

GBFAN · Sep 29, 2014

Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

Karl said:
I asked you for directions to one of those previous posts and you did not reply.

I now ask you again. What post?

Not my job, mon .... you be needin' to do your own lookin'.

GBFAN · Sep 29, 2014

VanceMack said:
I would love to believe that educators had the integrity to offer students the opportunity to explore history without projecting bias. I think 'history' indicates many teachers arent capable of that, and that is truly a shame. I think it is very valuable to study the entire historical perspective of pre and post war WW1 Germany to gain a better understanding of how someone like Adolph Hitler can rise to prominence and power. I think it is valuable to understand slavery as it existed in all its varying forms. The study of racism? Great...study a historical perspective of race and racism...that would be an eye opener. As I have said earlier in this thread...my best professors have been those that challenged people to study and explore all different perspectives...not just the one they agree with.

I dont want to see a teacher attempting to indoctrinate from a liberal slant any more than a conservative charter school English instructor assigning critical analysis of scripture from the bible.

Finally ... a sane voice in the wilderness.

Feel lonely much?

j-mac · Sep 29, 2014

SheWolf said:
I am concerned with access to quality education versus the government censoring or teaching children propaganda.

I too am concerned with that, only now what we have is nearly a one sided vision of what is "proper" version of what America is and how we came to be. For instance right now, you have Ward Churchill writing a book that he hopes to get into the curriculum of our school system...Ward 'freakin' Churchill. We have Bill Ayres sitting on a board that decides what is acceptable in these curriculum in our schools...A man that said he wished he'd have gotten to bomb more....And we have the very same people that were railing about Bush tampering with education with his program, are now coming up with the most utterly confusing way of teaching kids imaginable in common core...

And now they get all bent when conservatives that are concerned, that they know best and the conservatives should just let them handle it...NO! not any more! Liberals own the education system in this country, and are responsible for the decline in our children's knowledge today, and the way we are losing in the education race in the world.

Karl · Sep 29, 2014

Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

GBFAN said:
Not my job, mon .... you be needin' to do your own lookin'.

Then we will have to conclude that the report you were urging others to read does not exist.

Debate tip: In your situation (imminent fail) I would have ignored my post... you don't have to reply to every one

tres borrachos · Sep 29, 2014

SheWolf said:
I still don't understand what you are saying. We shouldn't protest in the US, because other countries have it worse?

I have lived in foreign countries. My family immigrated to the US, and my grandmother escaped genocide. Most of my friends and my fiancé are not what many people would consider "fully assimilated." I may one day live in one of those bad Middle Eastern countries for half the year and it will be my second home.

I care a lot about freedom, because most of the people I know living in the US came here for it. I am not suggesting we teach children the US is crap and a bad place to live. I am saying that we teach children the constitution and value of personal freedom, free speech, freedom of religion, etc. People are going to protest the government, even when you support what the government is doing. Get over it. What really matter really's is the US doesn't murder or torture people for protesting the government.

I don't care if these kids know what they are protesting or not. That isn't the point. People may use their freedom of speech to promote ideas and speech they later regret. US law doesn't protect people from making mistakes or regrets.

When did I say we shouldn't protest in the US? Hint - I never did.

And who said people didn't have the right to free speech in this country? Hint #2 - not me.
.
"patriotism crap" - your words, not mine. You said that you think teaching patriotism is crap.

I asked you before and I'll ask again. How do you know that they don't teach about the Constitution? How do you know that the revised curriculum didn't include teaching about the Constitution? Where is your proof that the teaching about the Constitution was shelved?

If you don't know if these kids know what they're protesting or not, then how could you possibly have any opinion on whether they are doing something good or not?

tres borrachos · Sep 29, 2014

SheWolf said:
I brought it up my first quote which you responded to... :roll:

I am simply stating my opinion on the Bush Admin and it's conservative supporters, and you seem to be taking my comments personally for reasons beyond my understanding.

The Bush administration isn't the topic of this thread.

tres borrachos · Sep 29, 2014

Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

GBFAN said:
I am amazed that you can't take 13 seconds (that's how long it took me) to find the information.

Here's what's behind the JeffCo history curriculum protests | CPR

QUIZ: A peek at the new history coursework that sparked JeffCo proposal | CPR

Both articles contain references to be reviewed. In addition, there is a report to the school board (I reviewed it in hard print at the briefing) you can research.

A 45 second review of the facts will convince you that the history curriculum kerfuffle is a strawman, intended to bring public pressure on the school board in order to weaken their position in the ongoing labor discussions with the teachers' union. The kids are being used ...

I'm amazed that I had to spend 13 seconds of my life because you were too lazy, or intellectually dishonest, to do a google search.

A simple thank you will do.

Half of my ancestors were Irish immigrants who were refused work because they were Irish. I wonder if that's being taught about in the curriculum?

Karl · Sep 29, 2014

Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

More conservative rewriting of history in the same vein:

Four years ago, the [Republican dominated] Texas State Board of Education (SBOE) adopted new standards, known as TEKS (Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills), for social studies textbooks in the state’s schools. The process ignited an international media storm. When it was done, even the explicitly conservative Thomas B. Fordham Institute gave TEKS a D, on the grounds that it amounted to political and cultural indoctrination, [...]

In Texas Textbooks, Moses Is a Founding Father - The Daily Beast

VanceMack · Sep 29, 2014

GBFAN said:
Finally ... a sane voice in the wilderness.

Feel lonely much?

Never. The voices in my head always keep me company.

GBFAN · Sep 29, 2014

Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

Karl said:
Then we will have to conclude that the report you were urging others to read does not exist.

Debate tip: In your situation (imminent fail) I would have ignored my post... you don't have to reply to every one

Yeah, I do ... it's fun watching you flounder. You clearly demonstrate that you're not interested in discussion (and maybe, accidentally, learning something), but delight in congratulating yourself for a self-delusional (and self-defined) 'win'.

GBFAN · Sep 29, 2014

VanceMack said:
Never. The voices in my head always keep me company.

You're lucky ... my voices voted for Obama. Now, they're trying to convince to vote for Biden.

GBFAN · Sep 29, 2014

Re: Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum

tres borrachos said:
Half of my ancestors were Irish immigrants who were refused work because they were Irish. I wonder if that's being taught about in the curriculum?

That's a fair question ... and I'll bet the answer is no .... to do that would demonstrate the value of assimilation, and the liberals' heads would explode.

VanceMack · Sep 29, 2014

GBFAN said:
You're lucky ... my voices voted for Obama. Now, they're trying to convince to vote for Biden.

Come on. Theres crazy...and then theres...well...you know...

Master PO · Sep 29, 2014

SheWolf said:
lol... your challenge is non sequitur. People have right to protest and disobey whatever form of government they choose to protest and disobey. Neither you nor I get to play the thought police in terms of deciding what, where, and when people get to disobey and protest.

As for your philosophical definition of rights and protest, it is meaningless to this discussion. Without government there is no recognition of rights. I don't accept Natural Rights Philosophy as a logical explanation of the world or a sociological explanation of recorded and substantive human behavior. We know a lot more about ancient humans and human life prior to modern concepts of government and economic fairness than we did in the time of Enlightenment Thinkers.

the Constitution only has natural rights and privileges.............there is nothing else.

i did not say at all you don't have a right to protest.....i stated ....nothing is a protest if it involves the destruction of property........how can the right to protest be a right by your action if you destroy property...... therefore it is civl unrest....not a protest...protest does not involve property destruction... the violation of rights.

if you disobey the law, then you must bare the consequences of that action, plain and simple.

well you may not believe natural rights, but they are there, government has never created a right, only positive law to secure them, those natural rights you don't believe in...if you think that's not true,..... produce a statue granting a right.

if you read the Romans, they also believed in unwritten law.

SheWolf · Sep 29, 2014

:lol:

You're getting defensive for no reason. We are just discussing opinions, not making accusations about each other.

Many of your questions are non sequitur.

I never said patriotism is crap, I said it cannot be taught. People express it in different ways. I don't assume studying the constitution has been shelved, but studying the constitution is enough. I took issue with teaching kids to "obey authority," and it doesn't matter if the opinion of these high school kids is right or wrong. I don't make black and white judgements about most opinions and protests unless the issue is extreme like neo nazism, and these kids aren't nazis. They have a right to protest, and that's all I care about. I don't care what their opinion is and if I agree or disagree. I don't care what they are protesting. I simply support their freedom to protest.

tres borrachos said:
When did I say we shouldn't protest in the US? Hint - I never did.

And who said people didn't have the right to free speech in this country? Hint #2 - not me.
.
"patriotism crap" - your words, not mine. You said that you think teaching patriotism is crap.

I asked you before and I'll ask again. How do you know that they don't teach about the Constitution? How do you know that the revised curriculum didn't include teaching about the Constitution? Where is your proof that the teaching about the Constitution was shelved?

If you don't know if these kids know what they're protesting or not, then how could you possibly have any opinion on whether they are doing something good or not?

Hundreds of Colorado students protest history curriculum[W:234]

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