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How would you like to die like this?

shuamort said:
Apropos of nothing, I gotta share this story. My friend used to work for the State of Minnesota's child support division and this case came across his desk. There were two friends that shared a small apartment and were quite poor. They had their girlfriends over and one couple went to the bedroom, slipped on a condom and went to town. After they finished, the other couple went in, they didn't have any more condoms, so the guy turned the condom inside out and they did the deed. Apparently they didn't wash it off or didn't wash it off well enough because the 2nd women got pregnant from the first guy. The first guy is on the hook for the child support too.

You know it's funny you mentioned it, because EVERY website on birth control says to not use a condom twice. I wasn't aware people had to be told. :lol: Evidently they do.
 
Gandhi>Bush said:
A valid point, but if you take the right precautions and be responsible, your chance of meeting with an unwanted pregnancy becomes very very slim. Preventing a pregnancy is better and safer and more responsible than terminating one. I believe people should be held responsible for their actions. This includes their mistakes.QUOTE]

I think almost everyone (with the exception of a few crazies) believes that preventing a pregnancy is far better that aborting one.

However, accidents do happen, and at that point, it seems you empathize more with the robber than the person whose house he is in. Should a person only have sex if they want to have child? Seems a little extreme to me. The fact still remains that a fetus is imposing its rights on its mother for nine months. Which is a little long. Just out of curiousity, did you read my post on the violinist? Would you be willing to be connected by a tube to someone for nine months, even if their life depended on it? Actually, I suspect you would be fine with it, being a Ghandi fan and all. But, surely you can see that some people wouldn't want to be, and shouldn't have to be, despite and mistakes they made.
 
Kelzie said:
However, accidents do happen, and at that point, it seems you empathize more with the robber than the person whose house he is in.

It is not a criminal act to be conceived.

Should a person only have sex if they want to have child? Seems a little extreme to me. The fact still remains that a fetus is imposing its rights on its mother for nine months. Which is a little long.

What exactly is a fetus imposing? He/she did not force fertilization or conception. He/she is because of the series of choices the mother and father made.

Just out of curiousity, did you read my post on the violinist? Would you be willing to be connected by a tube to someone for nine months, even if their life depended on it? Actually, I suspect you would be fine with it, being a Ghandi fan and all. But, surely you can see that some people wouldn't want to be, and shouldn't have to be, despite and mistakes they made.

Yes I read your post. I'd probably allow it, but I would have rather him just ask than have the Music Lovers of America kidnap me... If I choose to keep the felonious, terminaly-ill violinist alive, that is a choice out of goodwill. If I choose to let someone live who is the victim of situation that I created, I am responsible.
 
Gandhi>Bush said:
Approximately 1,562,500 times every year.

With only 2% of all abortions being done on the grounds rape, incest, or complications during pregnancy, it sounds like birth control is exactly what it's being used for.
QUOTE]

what if the other 1,531,250 abortions occurred because the condom broke and some sperm leaked out? the couple did their best to prevent the sperm getting in, but a problem occurred.

what i'm saying is that using an abortion doesn't necessarily mean that the couple didn't try to prevent a pregnancy.

those of you who say that you shouldn't have sex until you're ready to have a child, i say that if sex is pleasurable, what's wrong with it? if a couple doesn't want to have a baby but still have sex, isn't that the specific purpose of birth control?
 
mjd974 said:
What if the other 1,531,250 abortions occurred because the condom broke and some sperm leaked out? the couple did their best to prevent the sperm getting in, but a problem occurred.

If that's the case, then people aren't using perfect use when it comes to birht control. Educate. If you don't know how to use a condom, find out and not by using one. Read the damn package. Other than that, I'd have to say the odds of even a have those being the result of a faulty condom are incredibly low. If you're responsible enough, you don't have much to worry about.

those of you who say that you shouldn't have sex until you're ready to have a child, i say that if sex is pleasurable, what's wrong with it? if a couple doesn't want to have a baby but still have sex, isn't that the specific purpose of birth control?

Yes it is. So use birth control, and use it properly.
 
ok, this is my first post on anything on this site. anyways, i am a Christian but i am also prochoice. if you think about it, a fetus is an unborn human offspring from the end of the 8th week of pregnancy until birth. prior to this time, the offspring is an embryo. so the point being is that it isnt really a human being until after that 8th week but the mother has 12 weeks before its too late to abort the fetus.
 
zerochik said:
ok, this is my first post on anything on this site. anyways, i am a Christian but i am also prochoice. if you think about it, a fetus is an unborn human offspring from the end of the 8th week of pregnancy until birth. prior to this time, the offspring is an embryo. so the point being is that it isnt really a human being until after that 8th week but the mother has 12 weeks before its too late to abort the fetus.

Interesting viewpoint for a christian. Let me ask you this. I have a rose bush. It is presently not blooming. Does that stop it from being a rose bush? Or do I have to wait until it blooms to call it a rose bush?
 
galenrox said:
I think a more appropriate analogy would be you have a seed, and you plant it, is it a rose bush the second it is planted?

No it wouldn't. The post that I answered has had the "seed" already planted. It is in the process of growing. Once that seed sprouts, then you have a rose bush. Once that egg is fertilized you have a human. Just because it can't dance a jig yet, or hold in depth debates on debatepolitics.com doesn't detract from the fact that it is human.
 
zerochik said:
ok, this is my first post on anything on this site.
Welcome aboard.
anyways, i am a Christian but i am also prochoice.
I make it a practice never to discuss the question of abortion on the basis of religion. However, since you use both the words Christian and pro-choice in the same sentence, you invite this question.

The word Christian means "follower of Christ". Since Christ always spoke lovingly of children and gathered them to Him, do you think that one who aborts a child is following Christ?
if you think about it, a fetus is an unborn human offspring from the end of the 8th week of pregnancy until birth. prior to this time, the offspring is an embryo.
What is the difference between embryo, fetus, infant, crawler, toddler, pre-schooler, adolescent, teen ager, young adult, adult, mature adult, senior citizen? They are all human beings at various stages in their lives.

Life commences at conception. How do we know this? Because it is from that point that growth commences. What is it that is growing? Is it a fish? A vegetable? An animal? A nothing? If you say it can be human at the eighth week, why not at the seventh? Sixth? Fifth? Right on back to the first instant when the 23 chromosomes from the male sperm unite with the 23 chromosimes from the female egg and an new, unique being with its own DNA, blood type, and ability to live into old age is created. There is never a time at which humanness is not present.
so the point being is that it isnt really a human being until after that 8th week but the mother has 12 weeks before its too late to abort the fetus.
Check your biology text. Its alive, its human, it's a child in an early stage.

In actuality, the law permits a child to be aborted at any time prior to the emergence of its head from the mother.
 
Guitarchick54 said:
www.holylamb.com/abortion1.htm

This is quite disturbing that people would even think to kill a life! If the person/child wasn't meant to live they wouldn't be born! God has a special plan for everyone! He probably isn't to happy people are killing his creations especially like this!


Although I never agreed with abortion,I always tended to think that ultimately it was the woman's choice,but I never really understood exactly how abortion was carried out.
I believed(naively) that abortions took place much earlier during the gestation period.
However after viewing the images on the website that you included,abortion can only really be described as cold blooded murder!
If someone was asked to perpetrate this level of atrocity on already born Humans(or any other creature for that matter),there would rightly be total revulsion and condemnation.
 
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Fantasea said:
zerochik said:
Welcome aboard.I make it a practice never to discuss the question of abortion on the basis of religion. However, since you use both the words Christian and pro-choice in the same sentence, you invite this question.

The word Christian means "follower of Christ". Since Christ always spoke lovingly of children and gathered them to Him, do you think that one who aborts a child is following Christ?What is the difference between embryo, fetus, infant, crawler, toddler, pre-schooler, adolescent, teen ager, young adult, adult, mature adult, senior citizen? They are all human beings at various stages in their lives.

the word Christian does mean "follower of Christ" however, early Christians, although not particularly comfortable with abortion, did not consider it a sin. it wasnt until the whole "ensoulment" thing started to get around. i guess if i really have to say, im more like the early Christians.

as far as the different stages go, in my opionion, it makes no difference. just because the guy next to me is a teenager, that doesnt stop the adult across the street from pionting a gun to his head and pulling the trigger. yeah, it is murder, but an aborted embryo or fetus has the leg up. it hasnt seen the horrors of this world. if the mother doesnt want the new child, it will most likely be put out on the streets and killed that way. honestly, i would have rather been aborted then not have my own mother with me by my side.
 
zerochik said:
Fantasea said:
the word Christian does mean "follower of Christ" however, early Christians, although not particularly comfortable with abortion, did not consider it a sin. it wasnt until the whole "ensoulment" thing started to get around. i guess if i really have to say, im more like the early Christians.

as far as the different stages go, in my opionion, it makes no difference. just because the guy next to me is a teenager, that doesnt stop the adult across the street from pionting a gun to his head and pulling the trigger. yeah, it is murder, but an aborted embryo or fetus has the leg up. it hasnt seen the horrors of this world. if the mother doesnt want the new child, it will most likely be put out on the streets and killed that way. honestly, i would have rather been aborted then not have my own mother with me by my side.
Don't know where you got that impression of early Christians from. They have always abhorred abortion. To shed an unwanted life damned your soul to hell. How much more of a definition of "sin" can there be? The first option of an unwanted pregnancy within the church was to marry the daughter to whatever hellion knocked her up. Not kill the child. That wasn't even an option. Better to live your life in misery for the mistake than to commit murder and damn your soul to hell.
I though I was a callous person, but you take the cake. It's better to kill a child before they have lived? Unreal. Instead of addressing the real issue, which is promiscuity and tell the teenager to stop having irresponsible sex, let's tell him/her it's better to kill that child than give it a chance to live. That is much better.
 
zerochik said:
Originally Posted by Fantasea
The word Christian means "follower of Christ". Since Christ always spoke lovingly of children and gathered them to Him, do you think that one who aborts a child is following Christ?
You are attempting to "slide" on this question. Will you answer it?
the word Christian does mean "follower of Christ" however, early Christians, although not particularly comfortable with abortion, did not consider it a sin. it wasnt until the whole "ensoulment" thing started to get around. i guess if i really have to say, im more like the early Christians.
Forget the whole religious aspect of the discussion.

We pride ourselves on being enlightened individuals who are able to use mind power to do great things. In the field of obstetrics, great strides have been made since 1973 when in his writing of the Roe v. Wade opinion, Justice Blackmun wrote (paraphrased) "since we won't speculate on when human life begins, it's OK to kill whatever it is that is in a womb".

He didn't have the benefit of full color, real time, motion pictures of what is going on inside a womb. If, for example, he had been able to see an ultra-sound scan of his pregnant daughter's belly, Roe v. Wade would have been decided the other way.
as far as the different stages go, in my opionion, it makes no difference.
Do you believe that whether a child lives or dies should simply be a matter of opinion? Do you consider the question to be significant? If so, why not spend some time to learn the truth. A little googling on the subject will quickly show you that the abortion advocates have nothing going for them but emotional arguments.
just because the guy next to me is a teenager, that doesnt stop the adult across the street from pionting a gun to his head and pulling the trigger. yeah, it is murder, but an aborted embryo or fetus has the leg up. it hasnt seen the horrors of this world.
Do you find the world so horrible that you regret having been born into it?
if the mother doesnt want the new child, it will most likely be put out on the streets and killed that way. honestly, i would have rather been aborted then not have my own mother with me by my side.
Many children are orphaned early in life. Should we follow the customs in some backward cultures and toss them into the graves with their dead mothers?
 
Fantasea said:
zerochik said:
We pride ourselves on being enlightened individuals who are able to use mind power to do great things. In the field of obstetrics, great strides have been made since 1973 when in his writing of the Roe v. Wade opinion, Justice Blackmun wrote (paraphrased) "since we won't speculate on when human life begins, it's OK to kill whatever it is that is in a womb".

so let me ask you this then. if you think abortion is murder, then whats the difference in that and the kid next to me gitting shot by the guy across the street? if you are going to fight for one thing, you have to fight for the whole thing. since i cant see you and dont know you, i do not believe this next thing 100% but, i really do have the frame of mind to think that you are sitting there right this very moment thinking of how you are going to help stop murder in this world. in reality. stop those people who were born and made friends and had a life from getting killed. if you think about it, these aborted "things" have the lag up. they didnt make any friends that are going to miss them and have to suffer at their funeral. these "things" havnt seen the horrors reality has in store for them.
 
zerochik said:
Fantasea said:
so let me ask you this then. if you think abortion is murder, then whats the difference in that and the kid next to me gitting shot by the guy across the street? if you are going to fight for one thing, you have to fight for the whole thing. since i cant see you and dont know you, i do not believe this next thing 100% but, i really do have the frame of mind to think that you are sitting there right this very moment thinking of how you are going to help stop murder in this world. in reality. stop those people who were born and made friends and had a life from getting killed. if you think about it, these aborted "things" have the lag up. they didnt make any friends that are going to miss them and have to suffer at their funeral. these "things" havnt seen the horrors reality has in store for them.

I don't know, but it sounds like to me that since we can't stop the murder of walking, breathing humans, it's OK to kill the ones that don't have a prayer to defend themselves? That is a bit on the .. I don't know... inane side. The two issues are separate, at least in this particular thread. One is murder for convenience, the other murder for any number of reasons. Maybe that guy raped his sister, or had his drug money, or beat his mother. The other is murder to cover up irresponsibility.
 
Datamonkee said:
zerochik said:
I don't know, but it sounds like to me that since we can't stop the murder of walking, breathing humans, it's OK to kill the ones that don't have a prayer to defend themselves? That is a bit on the .. I don't know... inane side. The two issues are separate, at least in this particular thread. One is murder for convenience, the other murder for any number of reasons. Maybe that guy raped his sister, or had his drug money, or beat his mother. The other is murder to cover up irresponsibility.

murder is murder no matter if its for convenience or not. unborn or not. as far as i see it, i dont think that abortion is murder.
 
You can argue that life begins at conception, but there are many times that a fertilized egg fails to attach itself to the uteran wall, and is later passed out.

A fertilized egg does not mean life.

Right or wrong, abortion is here to stay. Even if outlawed, pills like RU-486 will be hot commodities in the illegal drug trade.

The solution is to prevent pregnancy in the first place by more wide spread availability of contraceptives and better sex education...both things the hypocritical 'right' are against.

If the 'right' truely wants to stop abortion, then they need to get behind the programs that help prevent pregnancy.

Put up or shut up.
 
Hoot said:
You can argue that life begins at conception, but there are many times that a fertilized egg fails to attach itself to the uteran wall, and is later passed out.

A fertilized egg does not mean life.

Right or wrong, abortion is here to stay. Even if outlawed, pills like RU-486 will be hot commodities in the illegal drug trade.

The solution is to prevent pregnancy in the first place by more wide spread availability of contraceptives and better sex education...both things the hypocritical 'right' are against.

If the 'right' truely wants to stop abortion, then they need to get behind the programs that help prevent pregnancy.

Put up or shut up.
You may continue to seek fly turds among the specks of pepper. However, there is a world of difference between unintended, spontaneous, natural, occurrences and the deliberate termination of a human life.

The solution is for persons to take responsibility for their actions.

Don't bother to put up.
 
zerochik said:
so let me ask you this then. if you think abortion is murder,
You have never read any post of mine which said that is what I think. You simply jump to a conclusion which you think will help strengthen your position.

Understand this. Prior to Roe v. Wade, the crime was "performing an illegal abortion". The doctor involved was charged with that crime and prosecuted. The mother was not charged with a crime.

Shall I repeat that? Or, did it sink in?
then whats the difference in that and the kid next to me gitting shot by the guy across the street? if you are going to fight for one thing, you have to fight for the whole thing. since i cant see you and dont know you, i do not believe this next thing 100% but, i really do have the frame of mind to think that you are sitting there right this very moment thinking of how you are going to help stop murder in this world. in reality. stop those people who were born and made friends and had a life from getting killed. if you think about it, these aborted "things" have the lag up. they didnt make any friends that are going to miss them and have to suffer at their funeral. these "things" havnt seen the horrors reality has in store for them.
Perhaps someone else can make sense of this rambling. I can't.
 
Fantasea said:
You may continue to seek fly turds among the specks of pepper. However, there is a world of difference between unintended, spontaneous, natural, occurrences and the deliberate termination of a human life.

The solution is for persons to take responsibility for their actions.

Don't bother to put up.

I almost shot sunkist through the nose! :dito:
Great Post!
 
Fantasea said:
You may continue to seek fly turds among the specks of pepper. However, there is a world of difference between unintended, spontaneous, natural, occurrences and the deliberate termination of a human life.

The solution is for persons to take responsibility for their actions.

Don't bother to put up.

C'mon, Fantasea...I think you're a reasonable guy, but how do you hold people responsible for their actions when we aren't giving them the education to make responsible decisions?

Are you or are you not against more wide spread availability of contraceptives and/or sex education in our schools?
 
Hoot said:
C'mon, Fantasea...I think you're a reasonable guy, but how do you hold people responsible for their actions when we aren't giving them the education to make responsible decisions?

Are you or are you not against more wide spread availability of contraceptives and/or sex education in our schools?

Now that is an excellent question.

Let's say that I'm concerned that there are lots of people accidentally drowning because society has decided that going into deep water outside of marriage is immoral and therefore we should not teach anyone to swim until they are married.

Then someone comes along and says, "Hey, if we taught all people to swim, then fewer people would drown, because it is human nature for people to go into deep water!". I'm going to reply, hell, no, we must teach unmarried people not to go into deep water. If they don't listen and drown, well that will teach them!
 
Hoot said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantasea
You may continue to seek fly turds among the specks of pepper. However, there is a world of difference between unintended, spontaneous, natural, occurrences and the deliberate termination of a human life.

The solution is for persons to take responsibility for their actions.

Don't bother to put up.
C'mon, Fantasea...I think you're a reasonable guy, but how do you hold people responsible for their actions when we aren't giving them the education to make responsible decisions?
We strive to teach kids the difference between right and wrong.

Cross at the green and note in between. Don't go in the water too soon after eating. Don't play with matches. Don't bully others. Don't lie. Don't steal. Play games by the rules. And the list goes on and on.

When it somes to sex education, however, the lesson understood by students is this. Since they're teaching me how to work a condom, and giving me a handful, it must be the right thing to go out and use them.

Kids who would otherwise abstain, are encouraged to 'get it on'.

Of course, when the opportunity to use a condom presents itself and there are none handy, "I'll just take a chance. To make up for it, I'll use two the next time."
Are you or are you not against more wide spread availability of contraceptives and/or sex education in our schools?
How do you teach sex education to kids who you can't even teach to read?

I don't subscribe to the idea that, "What the hell, they're gonna screw around anyway." I believe that the slide began when it became unfashionable, in both the home, and in the school, to teach respect, obedience, and discipline.

It's time to get back to basics.
 
Naughty Nurse said:
Now that is an excellent question.

Let's say that I'm concerned that there are lots of people accidentally drowning because society has decided that going into deep water outside of marriage is immoral and therefore we should not teach anyone to swim until they are married.

Then someone comes along and says, "Hey, if we taught all people to swim, then fewer people would drown, because it is human nature for people to go into deep water!". I'm going to reply, hell, no, we must teach unmarried people not to go into deep water. If they don't listen and drown, well that will teach them!
Persons who subscribe to the principal of abstinence, don't drown, or get pregnant, or get an STD. What's so hard to understand about that?

Those who wish may roll the dice.
 
Fantasea said:
Persons who subscribe to the principal of abstinence, don't drown, or get pregnant, or get an STD. What's so hard to understand about that?

Nothing hard to understand about that. I fully understand it. I have complete and utter comprehension of that point.

People who don't cross the road won't get hit by a car. People who don't fly won't get killed in a plane crash. We make choices about risk every day.

Fantasea said:
Those who wish may roll the dice.

And we can help them by weighting the dice in their favour.
 
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