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Copy/paste from the other thread:
If you need to change and become a different person for her to 'love you' - she doesn't love you.
If she loves you now as you are then she doesn't need you to change.
What you're doing sounds like cultivating something you aren't - because you imagine she wants it - in order to be something she doesn't actually need or want.
I need help in the romance department. I have been with a wonderful woman for a year and in that time I have learned a lot about her, but something inside me tells me that this relationship is about to go deeper.
The reason I say that is that we both spent some time early in the relationship getting to know each other, our good sides and our flaws and then spent more time coming to peace with each others flaws. (she has a nasty temper and I have a bad habit of not thinking of how my words will affect others before I speak, for example). We seem to be getting to a point where we are willing to each confront our flaws a bit and try to love the other more on their terms. For example, she loves it when I do little helpful things that I know are going to get in the way of her accomplishing some task (moving the cars around in the driveway while she is getting ready for us to go somewhere) and she is starting to do more of the same (she knows I have a strong need for physical affection so she holds my hand a lot even though she has almost no need to physically express how she feels).
Getting to this point has been rough though, we had a lot of fights since we both are very strong willed and both are inclined to be leader types and I have learned a lot about what love actually is in this process (I think she already knew this stuff and was waiting for me to catch up though).
But we are here (we went through the valley of both of us wanting to give up and then realizing that we simply do not want to be without each other and making that choice) and because I think we are at the point where we want to learn how to love the other on their terms and not our own terms, I want to do as well at it as I know how to.
What she needs is a classically romantic and sweet guy, who is strong, a nice dresser, and who can throw some creativity into the mix. None of which I mind doing at all, I actually have a lot of fun doing that sort of thing, but its not something I am naturally inclined to do (in terms of raw emotional or social talents, which I don't have much of, I need to start this from scratch), so I need to improve my romantic skillset.
Can anyone recommend any good books, psychological manuals, or other data on the matter? Even simple **** like when to be sweet and when to tackle a life issue would be awesome (everything has its place, sometimes you gotta work, sometimes you want to have fun). What to keep to myself, possibly forever, and what to tell her. What kind of atmosphere to foster. That sort of thing. While she needs to be romanced in a certain way, I also know who I am, which is the left brained nerd, which basically means I need to first construct a giant flow chart in my head about how to do this and then internalize and just naturally start doing it, over time (think Dharma and Greg, she is the artistic one, but less hippy and more classy). Any suggestions for good books, webinars, youtube videos, etc?
And before anyone responds, please don't reply with "how to get your woman horny" type stuff, this isn't about sex as much as a different kind of emotional satisfaction. I want to make her feel truly loved and she wants to do the same for me.
I need help in the romance department. I have been with a wonderful woman for a year and in that time I have learned a lot about her, but something inside me tells me that this relationship is about to go deeper.
The reason I say that is that we both spent some time early in the relationship getting to know each other, our good sides and our flaws and then spent more time coming to peace with each others flaws. (she has a nasty temper and I have a bad habit of not thinking of how my words will affect others before I speak, for example). We seem to be getting to a point where we are willing to each confront our flaws a bit and try to love the other more on their terms. For example, she loves it when I do little helpful things that I know are going to get in the way of her accomplishing some task (moving the cars around in the driveway while she is getting ready for us to go somewhere) and she is starting to do more of the same (she knows I have a strong need for physical affection so she holds my hand a lot even though she has almost no need to physically express how she feels).
Getting to this point has been rough though, we had a lot of fights since we both are very strong willed and both are inclined to be leader types and I have learned a lot about what love actually is in this process (I think she already knew this stuff and was waiting for me to catch up though).
But we are here (we went through the valley of both of us wanting to give up and then realizing that we simply do not want to be without each other and making that choice) and because I think we are at the point where we want to learn how to love the other on their terms and not our own terms, I want to do as well at it as I know how to.
What she needs is a classically romantic and sweet guy, who is strong, a nice dresser, and who can throw some creativity into the mix. None of which I mind doing at all, I actually have a lot of fun doing that sort of thing, but its not something I am naturally inclined to do (in terms of raw emotional or social talents, which I don't have much of, I need to start this from scratch), so I need to improve my romantic skillset.
Can anyone recommend any good books, psychological manuals, or other data on the matter? Even simple **** like when to be sweet and when to tackle a life issue would be awesome (everything has its place, sometimes you gotta work, sometimes you want to have fun). What to keep to myself, possibly forever, and what to tell her. What kind of atmosphere to foster. That sort of thing. While she needs to be romanced in a certain way, I also know who I am, which is the left brained nerd, which basically means I need to first construct a giant flow chart in my head about how to do this and then internalize and just naturally start doing it, over time (think Dharma and Greg, she is the artistic one, but less hippy and more classy). Any suggestions for good books, webinars, youtube videos, etc?
And before anyone responds, please don't reply with "how to get your woman horny" type stuff, this isn't about sex as much as a different kind of emotional satisfaction. I want to make her feel truly loved and she wants to do the same for me.
Copy/paste from the other thread:
If you need to change and become a different person for her to 'love you' - she doesn't love you.
If she loves you now as you are then she doesn't need you to change.
What you're doing sounds like cultivating something you aren't - because you imagine she wants it - in order to be something she doesn't actually need or want.
yes and no.
We are a really great match and every day we laugh together and genuinely enjoy each other's company. We genuinely love each other more deeply and thoroughly than I could ever put into words. I am not concerned at all about whether she loves me. This isn't about saving a failing relationship and I may be wrong, but I am getting the impression that is what you read into my opening post.
There are two main points to consider here:
1. People are human and one thing that is constant in life is change and growth. People never stay stagnant and people grow no matter what (unless there is some sort of mental deficiency, but this is not the case). I look at who my parents were when I was young and I look at who they are now. My dad went from someone who would hit first and ask questions later to being about the most gentle person I know. He did it for my mom, he did it for my brother and I, and he did it for himself. My mom went from being very controlling to being much more relaxed, her motivations were the same. A successful relationship is not only one that works today, but one that stands the test of time and where each person helps the other grow to be a better person. That was the point behind the whole statement about her and I confront our flaws. We are helping the other grow and be stronger, more gentle, more loving, etc. That is VERY evident in the relationship when I look at where we started vs where we are today.
2. In terms of me loving her on her terms and her loving me on mine. I also see no problem with that. I am not even sure I want someone I can just love without conscious effort where the love comes completely naturally. There is no room for growth and I would get bored with that situation very quickly. I would rather be in a situation where I can learn new things, new ways to love, new depths of love, feel the pain of love (and love can be damned painful), aspire to greater things, and genuinely live an authentic love than simply have it easy. If she needs romance (like many women do) and she needs a bit of a fantasy life, that's no big deal, she's not asking anything of me that I don't enjoy doing or that we don't already share on some deep level and that I wouldn't do whether or not she was in the picture. These are things we both want, but at the same time, don't know how to do. She is learning more about philosophy because she finds it fascinating and I know a **** ton about philosophy and she wants to talk with me about it. We are both deepening our religious sides together. We are doing a bunch of **** already and that is all growth and exploration into each other and deeper forms of love and appreciation for one another. We all have interests we haven't had time to explore in life, when she and I met, she kindled some sort of need for romance within me and its a new experience, its not something I know how to do, but its something I don't want to be without ever again, with or without her...
This is about finding a deeper love than what exists today. This is about true romance. Yeah, she and I can netflix and sex all day, but even sex gets old after a while. If there is nowhere to go in the relationship, it will die.
I'm going to have to agree with Auntie. If you have to turn into basically an entirely different person to please her, then you're with the wrong woman. What you're describing is not equivalent to her reading about philosophy. That is an independent hobby which she is independently interested in, but that interest happens to be sparked by talking to you. What you're describing doing to yourself is a total personality change. Everything from how you dress to your basic mannerisms. That's totally different.
Beyond that, it's not sustainable. What you actually are will win out in the end.
I COMPLETELY disagree with point #2. Having love come easily for being exactly who you are is NOT boring or stagnant. If anything, it's encouraging to become more of what you are, and you can share a level of depth that you maybe never have in your life, with someone like that. If you could just completely eschew everything you do on a day-to-day basis for the sake of social acceptance, what would you be? Dude... that's a hell of a rabbit hole.
And that's not necessarily easy either. We're all a mess of jumbled wires on the inside, especially once we've got a bit of adulthood behind us. It's not easy for me anyway, as someone who happens to have the particular quirk of being a rather guarded person, but it is worth it, and I'm not expected to be a different person.
How are you defining authentic love? I have a hard time reconciling changing your personality into that definition, when I consider the term.
If you both want to accept each other with all your flaws, why do you seek to change? Grow together but always be yourself first. You can't keep up a facade for very long.
I don't see how you guys are coming to this conclusion at all. This romantic thing is not an attempt to keep her, its an attempt to go deeper because those glimpses I have had with her (when we danced in the rain one time or shared an amazing kiss in this one spot) were ****ing awesome experiences and things I never felt before meeting her. I didn't feel this stuff with my ex wife even once.
Authentic love is one that works today and in the future, no matter what life throws at you, no matter how one has to adapt to changing circumstances, no matter what tragedies strike. It is one where you can be fully who you are today and grow fully to who you are in the future (and I don't know about other people, but I can look at myself today vs version of myself in the past and I see huge differences in personality, an authentic love is a love that these changes fit into). When I became a parent, my personality changed in a ton of ways, when I became a professional, it changed my personality, when I got divorced, it changed my personality. Life experiences will do that, relationships are no different.
I guess I am just not seeing how little day to day stuff can't be just as awesome if the connection is right. Some of my most romantically meaningful moments don't look like that, or wouldn't even make sense without an entire backstory. Hell, one of them he didn't even know he was doing at the time -- and that was arguably the most important moment of a relationship in my entire life.
It's about the connection, not the aesthetic prettiness of the moment.
Anyway, where people are getting that impression is you describing it as "What she needs is..." and then describing a bunch of stuff that is based on intrinsic personality, which you then go on to say isn't anything like you and that you have no natural inclination for.
I promise you, you won't be able to maintain that.
I agree with your definition. I just don't see why you have to overhaul your personality to have that.
If I look at you over the years, for whatever that may be worth from what I can see on a forum, I do see some little differences, but Taco, you're basically the same dude at the bottom of it all. Yeah, you've been through all kinds of stuff. It's tweaked you a little, but it hasn't really changed you.
And there's nothing wrong with that. I mean, hell, look at me. I've been through all kinds of totally crazy **** since I joined DP, and I feel like I've changed a ton. But really? If I really sit down and look at myself? No, I'm basically the same girl I always was. I'm better, more together, more manifestly myself. But I'm the same girl.
Most of us have been basically "the same dude/girl" since we were in elementary school. We are who we are, on a fundamental level. We just whittle and shape and perfect it over our lives, hopefully. And if we have a really serious flaw and we work our ass off for years, maybe we can even change ONE major facet of ourselves, like your parents did. But trying to just be someone else is not a recipe for success.
Focus on just chipping away at being a better version of yourself.
Every day little stuff is awesome. I text her that our song was playing on the radio and she blushed. Last night, we shared a look for no reason at all.
I still think you are reading far more into this than is there. Why do you think I am changing my entire personality?
Because the stuff you're describing is personality stuff.
I don't think you can "go deeper" by changing yourself. On the contrary, I think the deepest you can get is sharing the very most basic of who you unalterably are.
And one of those moments where that happened was, again, one of the most important of my love life -- even though it wasn't the sort of thing that would look attractive in a Hollywood moving like the rain kissing thing.
How am I changing myself by acquiring a new skill? Did I change myself when I learned to ride a bike? Did I change myself when I learned to take care of a baby? How am I changing myself by taking the time to write a love note? What is the difference?
Being "sweet" or "strong" (whatever those terms mean to you) is a basic personality trait. Being a "classic romantic" is usually some combination of basic personality and an entire lifetime of cultural influence. Being creative is also a personality trait.
If your goal was to simply make a bit more time for little deeds, I'd get it. Hell, set a reminder in your phone for once every couple weeks, and when it goes off sit down and do a thing, like the little note.
What you're describing is far more sweeping, and completely unrealistic to maintain.
Authentic love -- going as deep as you can go, which I am working on and still haven't entirely achieved -- is not sweet or pretty. It is the exact opposite of doing something new. It's letting them know your oldest self.
Copy/paste from the other thread:
If you need to change and become a different person for her to 'love you' - she doesn't love you.
If she loves you now as you are then she doesn't need you to change.
What you're doing sounds like cultivating something you aren't - because you imagine she wants it - in order to be something she doesn't actually need or want.
Taco you have the heart of a romantic , that much is obvious. you just don't have the playbook I think is what you are saying.
People who think that having to put work into a relationship is a sign of a bad relationship probably will never have a successful relationship but a series of short lived ones that fall apart due to neglect.
:yt
You hit the nail on the head. A relationship never just works out. I have known way too many people who were (not always, but generally) happily married for decades to believe that nonsense. Those people who were in a successful relationship for life put their blood, sweat, souls, and tears into it. Relationships are work. This is not to say that you can make it without some sort of natural foundation, that needs to be there as well, but nobody is an emotional clone of someone else, there are always things to work on.
People who think that having to put work into a relationship is a sign of a bad relationship probably will never have a successful relationship but a series of short lived ones that fall apart due to neglect.
I love romance, but I have no idea what to do. What I have started doing since this thread is to open a notebook on my phone and write down ideas as they come to me. This is a start at least.
Yea. I think about when your gal wants to go see a chick flick. Most guys, should they be picking a movie to go see, wouldn't have any sort of movie in mind. But she wants to go, so you go because she will enjoy herself and if she is happy it makes you happy.
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