How should Israel respond to rocketfire?

[Common_good]

Your comment is good for a laugh. Of course it's legal to acquire land as the result of war. That is basic to the laws of war, property law, and international law. How do you imagine, for example, the U.S. acquired California and large parts of the Southwest, except by defeating Mexico in the Mexican War? In the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo in 1848, Mexico ceded California, part of Texas, and its other lands in North to the United States.

There is a thing called the UN now.

 

[oneworld2]

Most anti-Semitic leftists claim that.

Having to resort to innuendo/slurs already ? I'm not an antisemitic leftist though

You should familiarize yourself with the laws , and you don't even have to be a leftist to do that

 

[Jack Hays]

You said "the foundation of every state on earth" not borders. You are diverting attention from your ridiculous statement.

The states would not exist without their borders. And without the colonial administrations there would have been nothing for the independence regimes to inherit. The Europeans created the states by force of arms; the Africans created their post independence regimes by various processes.

 

[oneworld2]

Greetings, oneworld2. :2wave:

Palestine is currently divided into two separate operational governments - the Palestine Authority and Hamas. Hamas is the armed resistance group which is responsible for the rocket attacks into Israel. Since Hamas has a very poor record in keeping agreements they have made with Israel in the past, why should anyone expect anything different in the their latest attempt at a truce? I believe Israel has shown great restraint in dealing with them, and they aren't likely to be lulled into believing any promises made by Hamas, who may or may not keep any agreement they make. I don't understand why they don't take their grievances to the UN, instead of attempting to kill Israelis on their own land, then using women and children as shields, which is cowardly in anyone's book! :thumbdown:!

Greetings, Polgara :2wave: ( I do appreciate these friendly welcomes even if we do disagree on some things )

Well , first of all I'm not so sure that Hamas is any worse than Israel is in breaking agreements between the two parties. You are quite correct in stating that Hamas has refused to give up the armed struggle to fight for the creation of a Palestinian state. And despite the propaganda they have made some changes to their position over the years. I think they realize , like Fatah before them , that the elimination of Israel and the complete restoration of the Palestinian state pre 1947 is never going to happen.

People do have a right to fight against foreign occupiers and the occupation remains illegal as are the settlements/settlers.

In the recent unity agreement it was agreed that Hamas would support a two state solution based on the 67 borders , something they have hinted at for some time actually.

The PA are seen by many Palestinians as little more than corrupt collaborators in the occupation and were widely condemned by them for agreeing to the Oslo agreements . This played a big role in the second intifada.

The problem , as I see it , is that the conflict could be solved by simply applying the laws already in place. Unfortunately the US veto has stopped this from happening.

The whole world supports a two state solution based on the 67 borders , Israel and the US aside if voting at the UNGA conferences on the subject are anything to go by.

I too support that resolution of the conflict and think the Taba talks and the resultant Geneva Initiative offer a reasonable framework for a solution .

Have a read and see what you think

Geneva Initiative - Yes to an agreement - English

 

[matchlight]

Most people who claim that don't judge as their opinion. It was ruled by the International Court of Justice.

I don't respect the authority of that court, and I'm sure no government of Israel does either. To hell with it.

 

[matchlight]

There is a thing called the UN now.

What of it? Even the UN charter recognizes the right to self-defense. Apparently you think nations who whip the enemies who attacked them, and have gained a lot of ground when the fighting stops, are supposed to just give it all back. Doesn't work that way--conspire to attack Israel, as Arab nations have done several times, and if you end up getting your head handed to you, that's just too damn bad.

The United Nations is filled with Jew-hating and America-hating leftists. If it's serious about its rulings against Israel, let it try to enforce them.

 

[matchlight]

Having to resort to innuendo/slurs already ? I'm not an antisemitic leftist though

You should familiarize yourself with the laws , and you don't even have to be a leftist to do that

I haven't used a slur against anyone here. Certainly not you, if as you say, the term I used does not apply to you.

I'll say it again: There is a deep streak of anti-Semitism among leftists, starting with Barack Obama. His former preacher despises Jews just like his fellow preacher and close pal Louis Farrakhan. (Of course Obama may not have known that--after all, he only attended Jeremiah "God damn America" Wright's sermons for twenty years.) And one of the Obamas' close friends in Chicago--they used to baby-sit each others' kids--was the radical leftist and former propagandist for Yasser Arafat and his PLO, Rashid Khalidi. It's no coincidence that no American president since Israel was established in 1948--even Carter--has shown anything like the continual hostility toward it that B. Hussein Obama has.

I only went to a little back-of-the-matchbook law school. What laws, exactly, do you think I should familiarize myself with? And just who are you claiming comes under the jurisdiction of these unnamed laws?

 

[Jack Hays]

I haven't used a slur against anyone here. Certainly not you, if as you say, the term I used does not apply to you.

I'll say it again: There is a deep streak of anti-Semitism among leftists, starting with Barack Obama. His former preacher despises Jews just like his fellow preacher and close pal Louis Farrakhan. (Of course Obama may not have known that--after all, he only attended Jeremiah "God damn America" Wright's sermons for twenty years.) And one of the Obamas' close friends in Chicago--they used to baby-sit each others' kids--was the radical leftist and former propagandist for Yasser Arafat and his PLO, Rashid Khalidi. It's no coincidence that no American president since Israel was established in 1948--even Carter--has shown anything like the continual hostility toward it that B. Hussein Obama has.

I only went to a little back-of-the-matchbook law school. What laws, exactly, do you think I should familiarize myself with? And just who are you claiming comes under the jurisdiction of these unnamed laws?

Superior post. Hats off.:thumbs:

 

[Common_good]

I haven't used a slur against anyone here. Certainly not you, if as you say, the term I used does not apply to you.

I'll say it again: There is a deep streak of anti-Semitism among leftists, starting with Barack Obama. His former preacher despises Jews just like his fellow preacher and close pal Louis Farrakhan. (Of course Obama may not have known that--after all, he only attended Jeremiah "God damn America" Wright's sermons for twenty years.) And one of the Obamas' close friends in Chicago--they used to baby-sit each others' kids--was the radical leftist and former propagandist for Yasser Arafat and his PLO, Rashid Khalidi. It's no coincidence that no American president since Israel was established in 1948--even Carter--has shown anything like the continual hostility toward it that B. Hussein Obama has.

I only went to a little back-of-the-matchbook law school. What laws, exactly, do you think I should familiarize myself with? And just who are you claiming comes under the jurisdiction of these unnamed laws?

Making antisemtisim accusations against those who criticise Government policy is a disgrace. The misuse is an insult to those who actually suffered under the hideous act. You should be ashamed.

I would also like to understand what you mean by leftists? Most real anti-semitism you see is by right-wing extremist groups. Most of the evangelical right only support Israel for their beliefs that the 'rapture' will follow etc.

Obama has been one of the worst supporters of Israel I.e allowed the worst attrocities to continue and support Israel under the highest ever settlement expansion. It is actually illegal under US law to sell arms to countries which are responsible for human rights violations. Israel dies this on a daily basis according to many sources. Look up Bt selem, amnesty international , human rights watch. I suppose they are anti-Semitic leftists?

 

[ido_]

The rocket attacks started not long after the second intifada commenced. You do know what happened in the second intifada ? That , imo , accounts for the rockets fired from 2001 until the time Israel decided that 6 thousand settlers in a place they didn't value as much as the WB , where most of the settlers where relocated ( along with the illegally occupied Golan ) and was tying down too many IDF staff and causing them too much grief , that's a large part of the disengagement imo

So rockets are being fired as response to the occupation, not as response to the blockade, thus, ending the blockade won't end rocket fire. So the question at the OP remains, how should Israel respond to rocket fire in the short term

 

[matchlight]

Look up Bt selem, amnesty international , human rights watch. I suppose they are anti-Semitic leftists?

For the most part. And here's to Israelis settling wherever they damn well please on their land. Leftists around the world who don't like that, and who never tire of carrying water for the Islamists who want to destroy Israel, are welcome to pick up a gun and go try to help their pals.

 

[matchlight]

So rockets are being fired as response to the occupation, not as response to the blockade, thus, ending the blockade won't end rocket fire. So the question at the OP remains, how should Israel respond to rocket fire in the short term

Pretty much as it has before. Locate the sources of these attacks and neutralize them. It should also continue to pursue HAMAS authorities in Gaza and kill them whenever possible. HAMAS is a branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, and as such it is an enemy both to Israel and to this country.

 

[oneworld2]

I haven't used a slur against anyone here. Certainly not you, if as you say, the term I used does not apply to you.

I'll say it again: There is a deep streak of anti-Semitism among leftists, starting with Barack Obama. His former preacher despises Jews just like his fellow preacher and close pal Louis Farrakhan. (Of course Obama may not have known that--after all, he only attended Jeremiah "God damn America" Wright's sermons for twenty years.) And one of the Obamas' close friends in Chicago--they used to baby-sit each others' kids--was the radical leftist and former propagandist for Yasser Arafat and his PLO, Rashid Khalidi. It's no coincidence that no American president since Israel was established in 1948--even Carter--has shown anything like the continual hostility toward it that B. Hussein Obama has.

What seems to be confusing for you is that criticism of Israeli policies is not " antisemitism "............ for sure it has and is used, ad nauseam, for this purpose but it is just a misuse of the term in a bid to undermine/discredit those who do criticize Israeli policies.

I only went to a little back-of-the-matchbook law school. What laws, exactly, do you think I should familiarize myself with?

The 4th Geneva Convention and the " inadmissibility of acquiring territory through war "

And just who are you claiming comes under the jurisdiction of these unnamed laws?

Those that are signatories to them .

 

[oneworld2]

So rockets are being fired as response to the occupation, not as response to the blockade,

How about to both

thus, ending the blockade won't end rocket fire.

As far as Hamas in Gaza is concerned it will

So the question at the OP remains, how should Israel respond to rocket fire in the short term

Accept the deal with Hamas and accept that they have to live up to their part of the deal this time

 

[oneworld2]

For the most part. And here's to Israelis settling wherever they damn well please on their land. Leftists around the world who don't like that, and who never tire of carrying water for the Islamists who want to destroy Israel, are welcome to pick up a gun and go try to help their pals.

Did you support the US led war to oust Hussein from Kuwait ?

 

[oneworld2]

The rockets were being fired many years prior to the blockade. The blockade was in fact a response to a massive increase in rocket fire after the disengagement culminating with the Hamas election and then takeover of Gaza.


The so called 10 year truce Hamas proposed is a completely bogus non-starter. No country in their right mind would agree to such a thing.


Basically your saying Israel should do nothing in response to the rockets except to capitulate to Hamas demands.

Sorry this took so long but here's what the former IDF commander of the Gaza division ,Brigadier General (Res.) Shmuel Zakai, had to say about Israels position with Hamas

"The state of Israel must understand that Hamas rule in Gaza is a fact, and it is with that government that we must reach a situation of calm."

snip

We could have eased the siege over the Gaza Strip, in such a way that the Palestinians, Hamas, would understand that holding their fire served their interests. But when you create a tahadiyeh, and the economic pressure on the Strip continues, it's obvious that Hamas will try to reach an improved tahadiyeh, and that their way to achieve this, is resumed Qassam fire.

"The carrot is improvement of the economic situation in the Gaza Strip. You cannot just land blows, leave the Palestinians in Gaza in the economic distress they're in, and to expect that Hamas will just sit around and do nothing. That's something that's simply unrealistic."

Can the First Gaza War be stopped before it starts? Israel News | Haaretz

Whilst I disagree with him over use of the stick in earlier comments in the interview , I agree with him that Israel has to recognize that Hamas is in the government role in Gaza , Israeli effective control aside , and it should consider reaching a position of " calm " by improving the situation for Gazans in Gaza