It's futile. Instead of worrying about what's happening now and what our current president is doing, complain about a guy who hasn't been the president in 4 years ago, and conveniently leave out the role of the current president has played in that, or to continually excuse him by blaming the "other guy" doesn't make any sense to me. :shrug:
No, I am speaking with someone who disagrees with me. And on topic here on this thread.
Could be, but I doubt it. There is certainty that all of them will turn out better, because the laws of human nature dictate that the Middle East can do what humans in every other single region has done. There is no reason to assume that Democracy can and does work for virtually every single culture on Earth, but it simply cannot work for Muslims in the Middle East. It's this fear of instability that kept the Middle East imprisoned under dictators. The same fear locked down Iraq in 1991. And it is the same fear Republicans spew today in regards to the Arab Spring under Obama. Praise instability. Let them rise up. Let them declare their loyalties to tribe. Let them slaughter. Let them reshape their states. Let them do exactly what the rest of the world was allowed to do.
Moderates were not in favor of war with Iraq. That had no consequence. What they watched were Iraqi votes after. Complaining about the carnage as they watched Muslims slaughter Muslims is a culture embarrassment. The Shia rose up on their own before at our bequest. They were slaughtered. Therefore, with or without us in Iraq, those local tribes have murder on the brain. hat's what happens when you spend generations being oppressed by another. It comes out in the end.
Meh, I suppose it's for the best that you don't participate in those threads. You'd probably "just blame Bush" anyhow. :roll: That should be the liberal mantra.
I agree with just about everything here except what I put in bold. I did not vote for Obama and I don't think his foreign policies are so wonderful either. I'm especially bothered about what's happening with Syria right now.
It did help them in these ways:
1) first and foremost gave them a rallying call that did increase membership. We elevated the status if a relatively small group. And gave them a place to focus on us.
2) gave a training ground that they would not have had otherwise. They learned a lot thy can use later on.
3) gave real propaganda they could use. Even gave credence to prior OBL claims.
It's not a matter of can or not. It's will or not. It is not something we can make happen. In the end, it will up to them and not us.
Training ground was never an issue. Like I stated, they have Yemen and much of Africa. France is dealing with them in Mali. Pakistan gives them safe haven, though they pretend otherwise by simply ignoring the presence. None of these involved an American military force. They did not and don't lack from a series of options when it comes to training grounds.
All Iraq did was give radicals an excuse to be radical. It's like stirring up you soup. The stuff rises to the top. Those that were created because of a love affair with Saddam Hussein can die along with those who actually thought Osama Bin Laden was a hero in the first place.
And there's no propaganda they can use other than to show how depraved Muslims act without a dictator. The fact that we introduced a Democratic system and gave them the freedom to vote is not something Al-Queda can paint as evil. I don't think that was their plan. Their plan actually backfired. Our response did not erupt the region into Islamic praise and defense. One would have to acknowledge that they were defending Saddam Hussein's regime in order to tie it into Islam. Chants of "Democracy" is what Osama Bin Laden died hearing. That and his name (apparently).
Exactly. That is the whole point of Iraqi votes and our departure. That is the whole point of the Arab Spring. So far they are doing fine without us considering their culture. They just need to address those bad borders. That is what will kill them.
Training ground is an issue regardless of Yeman or any place else. They trained in Iraq fighting us much more direct.
Most those who went to Iraq had never belonged to any terrorist group before, so it's reasonable to conclude that they had success recruiting.
No, they could show our imperialism, not to mention our poor judgement in using torture.
It's the kind of thing that's people towards radicalism. There is not a set number of radicals. Events play a role creating them.And most of them died like many are going to die in Syria.
Of course they did. Radicals had a real life cause in their midst. It was their funeral. Radicals are also seeing a developed cause in Syria. They will die there too.
No Islamic radical cares about any of this. They have already been indoctrinated to the idea of the "Great Satan" and have already accepted that their culture's failure is of the West's doing. Anything else we do is dismissed. This is why we can save countless Muslims from slaughter in the Balkans in the 1990s without any sense of thanks from the Islamic civilization. But let a picture of Army soldiers and prisoners at Abu-Ghraib get out and the "Great Satan" reveals himself? No....our enemies were always our enemies. Iraq just gave them a place to go local.
It has now been thrust upon them. Risky. No base with which to build on. No leaders who started it. We cants control our boarders, so don't put too much faith there.
But they didn't have any leadership in the Arab Spring either. This is why the Muslim Brotherhood won so many seats in Egypt. They were the only organization that was organized. We are talking about a civilization that has no real leadership other than religious men and the few radicals/reformers that defied dictators. They have no experience politically to maneuver from outside a dictator's watch so they will stumble. Frankly I don't care if they fail as long as they come to the realization that they are responsible for their own failures and leave us alone. They wanted democracy, now they got it. Now they can prove to the world one way or another. In the end, I live in Colorado. My civilization is successful.
It's the kind of thing that's people towards radicalism. There is not a set number of radicals. Events play a role creating them.
Doesn't that mean the Muslim brotherhood had the leadership to be organized? We didn't organize them. Leadership has to come from within and from the outside. If they can't do that, they will eventually fall.
Middle Eastern studies show the number of radicals to be anywhere between 1% and 20% depending on the study. It is an impossible number to accurately figure out for obvious reasons. That's anywhere between 12 million and 240 million radicals. They are sea by which the extremists/terrorists swim.
Sure events play a role, but think about it. What event here in America would set you on a path to murder women and children of another tribe? One would have to exist in an environment of great frustration and oppression to so easily pick up a gun and murder or to strap on a bomb and commit suicide for a deity. The lack of education and justice would have to be great to cause you to simply murder people for the sake of murder in the name of whatever. The removal of a dictator is all it took call thousands of Muslims from their homes to seek people of another tribe to murder. This is an issue that Muslims have created, not Americans.
Or leaders will develop along the way as they are doing now. Others in Egypt got elected to seats as well. But it doesn't matter. The leaders will be tribal minded and it is this that has to be overcome. I don't think they will be highly successful without addressing their bad borders and what constitutes their nations as we see them today.
I'm out. People kind of ruined the thread.
I have no idea. Are you speaking about a cumulative total including both conflicts, plus the "surge," and our current winding down withdrawal period now? No matter, I'd still have absolutely no idea.
Middle Eastern studies show the number of radicals to be anywhere between 1% and 20% depending on the study. It is an impossible number to accurately figure out for obvious reasons. That's anywhere between 12 million and 240 million radicals. They are the sea in which the extremists/terrorists swim.
Sure events play a role, but think about it. What event here in America would set you on a path to murder women and children of another tribe? One would have to exist in an environment of great frustration and oppression to so easily pick up a gun and murder or to strap on a bomb and commit suicide for a deity. The lack of education and justice would have to be great to cause you to simply murder people for the sake of murder in the name of whatever. The removal of a dictator is all it took to call thousands of Muslims from their homes in order to participate in the murder orgy. And they weren't targeting Americans. Only the brave did that. The cowards merely targeted other Muslims. This is an issue that Muslims have created, not Americans.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?