How is Being Anti-Abortion Strict Constitutionalist?

[Petyr]

Which part of 'the unborn and born cannot be treated equally under the law' was not clear?

And feel free to provide a link to any human rights organization that supports rights for the unborn.

it's a yes or no question.

 

[Lursa]

I believe that unborn lives are equal to born lives and no human life should be killed for the benefit of another.

That's nice. And you are personally able to act on that.

However it's not possible to enforce it legally. You are demonstrating a common pro-life attribute: refusing to acknowledge this reality.

One or the other will always have rights superseding the other, relegating one or the other to 2nd class citizen status.

Why do you value the unborn more than women?

I value the unborn but I value all born people more.

This is a reality, even if you want to deny it:

If you think the mother's will should be overcome to give birth, you do not value both equally. You are valuing the unborn over women.

 

[Lursa]

it's a yes or no question.

Only as a fantasy if you include the unborn because it's not possible.

Many pro-life people like to deny this because they want the moral High Ground that they value both unborn and born equally.

They can do that personally. But *in real life* it's not possible so just childish to avoid confronting the reality. No one "likes" this reality but thinking people (rather than ones running off emotion) can see that only one is possible.

 

[Petyr]

That's nice. And you are personally able to act on that.

However it's not possible to enforce it legally. You are demonstrating a common pro-life attribute: refusing to acknowledge this reality.

One or the other will always have rights superseding the other, relegating one or the other to 2nd class citizen status.

Why do you value the unborn more than women?

I value the unborn but I value all born people more.

This is a reality, even if you want to deny it:

If you think the mother's will should be overcome to give birth, you do not value both equally. You are valuing the unborn over women.

What part of equal do you not understand? I told you i value them equally. Why do you value adults more than the unborn? it is clear you do not believe in equal rights.

 

[lefty louie]

Should we hold funerals for all those millions of miscarried fetuses then? Maybe we should name them too. You have set a very low bar for humanity. What do you think makes humans special?

Funerals would be up to the parents, not me. Naming them, again it would be up to the parent(s). No my bar would be the higher one, yours is the one easily hurdled. What do I think makes humans special? The ability to walk upright, speak, write, add, subtract, fly, swim and run, communicate with other forms of life, shale I go on?

 

[iguanaman]

Do you believe in equal human rights?

For living breathing humans, yes. Human beings breath air and eat and drink. They have complex brains that make us special. A fetus has none of those. Calling a fetus human is an insult to humanity.

 

[Lursa]

What part of equal do you not understand? I told you i value them equally. Why do you value adults more than the unborn? it is clear you do not believe in equal rights.

It's pretty clear...that you dont understand what equal means.

Sure, you can value them that way yourself. Good for you. But in all practicality for a society, it's not possible.

I value the born more because they are already contributing members of society, while the unborn are not yet born and may not even survive to birth (about 25% miscarry). And if born, may be born physically or mentally handicapped. The born person is the better investment for society and has already proven themselves capable of contributing and reproducing. This is one reason.

I believe in equal human rights for all people. The unborn are not people.

 

[Petyr]

Funerals would be up to the parents, not me. Naming them, again it would be up to the parent(s). No my bar would be the higher one, yours is the one easily hurdled. What do I think makes humans special? The ability to walk upright, speak, write, add, subtract, fly, swim and run, communicate with other forms of life, shale I go on?

So any human being who cant do these things are less human, they have less rights? And a new born, or someone with disabilities has less human value.

 

[Petyr]

It's pretty clear...that you dont understand what equal means.

Sure, you can value them that way yourself. Good for you. But in all practicality for a society, it's not possible.

I value the born more because they are already contributing members of society, while the unborn are not yet born and may not even survive to birth (about 25% miscarry). And if born, may be born physically or mentally handicapped. The born person is the better investment for society and has already proven themselves capable of contributing and reproducing. This is one reason.

I believe in equal human rights for all people. The unborn are not people.

Then you proved my point you don't believe in equality.

 

[lefty louie]

So any human being who cant do these things are less human, they have less rights? And a new born, or someone with disabilities has less human value.

No, they just need to grow and learn, where did you buy your logic from a dollar store? If we went your route, anyone with an IQ less then that of the smartest human would be less human.

 

[Lursa]

Then you proved my point you don't believe in equality.

LOL I already proved the unborn are not equal. So then why would they be treated equally? And that they cannot be treated equally.

You can believe in unicorns too, but it doesnt make them real.

"Before birth, the unborn has no rights that can be separated from the mother (physically, legally, ethically, practically). It's a dependency that truly demonstrates that it is not equal.

They do not have a single right that they can exercise independently."

 

[Petyr]

No, they just need to grow and learn, where did you buy your logic from a dollar store? If we went your route, anyone with an IQ less then that of the smartest human would be less human.

How stupid are you? Your literally attacking your own point. Your logic is based on practicality and physical abilities and as i stated that you reply thinking that i believe your twisted ideals. you said someones abilities determine their worth. that was your point. Do you suffer from short term memory loss or are you just an idiot.

 

[minnie616]

Give me a break, if people living in America during that time were sex obsessed then why did they move across the world for religion. Only devout people would do so and no devout Christian such as a pilgrim, Quaker, or puritan would normally have an abortion.

I highly doubt that. In the early colonial days abortion was quite common and before quickening ( about 4 months ) it was legal under common law.



From:

UNTIL the last third of the nineteenth century, when it was criminalized state by state across the land, abortion was legal before "quickening" (approximately the fourth month of pregnancy). Colonial home medical guides gave recipes for "bringing on the menses" with herbs that could be grown in one's garden or easily found in the woods. By the mid eighteenth century commercial preparations were so widely available that they had inspired their own euphemism ("taking the trade"). Unfortunately, these drugs were often fatal. The first statutes regulating abortion, passed in the 1820s and 1830s, were actually poison-control laws: the sale of commercial abortifacients was banned, but abortion per se was not.

The laws made little difference. By the 1840s the abortion business -- including the sale of illegal drugs, which were widely advertised in the popular press -- was booming. The most famous practitioner, Madame Restell, openly provided abortion services for thirty-five years, with offices in New York, Boston, and Philadelphia and traveling salespeople touting her "Female Monthly Pills."

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1997/05/abortion-in-american-history/376851/

 

[Petyr]

I highly doubt that. In the early colonial days abortion was quite common and before quickening ( about 4 months ) it was legal under common law.



From:



https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1997/05/abortion-in-american-history/376851/

Your point is meaningless. we were talking about colonial times not the 1840's and murder has always been around but that doesn't justify murder. Also we are way past this point do you have any comments on anything said recently?

 

[Petyr]

Your point is meaningless. we were talking about colonial times not the 1840's and murder has always been around but that doesn't justify murder. Also we are way past this point do you have any comments on anything said recently?

On a further point, just because it became illegal in 1867 doesn't mean society accepted it before that year.

 

[calamity]

C'mon man, at least give an argument if you disagree with me. Taking words out of my mouth is cheap, uneducated, and childish.

My argument is in the op. Not my problem if you are late to the party.

 

[lefty louie]

How stupid are you? Your literally attacking your own point. Your logic is based on practicality and physical abilities and as i stated that you reply thinking that i believe your twisted ideals. you said someones abilities determine their worth. that was your point. Do you suffer from short term memory loss or are you just an idiot.

Maybe I am suffering short term memory loss, why not point out to me where I said contradicting points. Stupid, pretty strong word, incapable of learning???

 

[Petyr]

My argument is in the op. Not my problem if you are late to the party.

Ok let me be clearer. if you are going to disagree with my comment provide an argument against it. You used the Critical Thinking skills of a 6 year old and it would be nice to have a debate with an adult.

 

[Petyr]

Maybe I am suffering short term memory loss, why not point out to me where I said contradicting points. Stupid, pretty strong word, incapable of learning???

here you go, you said this "What do I think makes humans special? The ability to walk upright, speak, write, add, subtract, fly, swim and run, communicate with other forms of life, shale I go on?"
i stated that if you believe that this is what makes humans special than their rights would rely on their abilities. You then attacked this statement not realizing that it was rooted in your ideals. i don't know about you but i find that their is very little intelligence in any of your recent statements.

 

[calamity]

Ok let me be clearer. if you are going to disagree with my comment provide an argument against it. You used the Critical Thinking skills of a 6 year old and it would be nice to have a debate with an adult.

You're the one brining up bibles and stuff. So, I was simply responding in kind.

 

[Petyr]

You're the one brining up bibles and stuff. So, I was simply responding in kind.

Bringing up Bibles? My comments on this issue are all secular. Just because people i mentioned in colonial america are religious doesn't mean i am using religious opinions. if you were responding in kind you would have an argument.

 

[Logicman]

Please show me where in the Constitution there is any verbiage stating unborn things have ****ing Rights?

I'll wait.

Anti-abortion judges are radicals legislating from the bench. So, don't try to blow smoke up my ass by saying that judges who go out of their way to protect the unborn are strict constitutionalists. They are not. So, stop lying.

First you show me where having an abortion is a constitutional right?

 

[Removable Mind]

Not my fault you either have none or simply don't understand faith.

You do realize you can't take life for granted and continue to sin and still expect the blessings of our Lord and Savior? It doesn't work like that.

It’s not my fault that you don’t get to impose your beliefs on the rest of the world. But I’m sincerely happy that you can’t.

 

[Removable Mind]

I'm afraid you are conflating primary worth and personal responsibility. There are so many ways to avoid an unwanted pregnancy that waiting until the issue of a union can feel pain, and for all we know, think about what is happening, that abortion should require a true medical emergency.

Regards,
CP

So in other words you place more value on the yet to be born over women.

On an individual basis, it’s not only impossible to know what occurred for an unwanted pregnancy to occur - or to understand the consequences of that unwanted pregnancy for any given woman. But more importantly it’s nobody’s business other than the woman who hosts an unwanted pregnancy.

Government and Religious interventions aren’t necessary. Women do know that the sooner that they take action to terminate an unwanted pregnancy the better. Women clearly understands viability of a fetus. Over 90% of women who have an abortion do so 12 weeks and under. Viability has been medically determined to be give or take around 26 weeks.

Thanks,

RM

 

[calamity]

First you show me where having an abortion is a constitutional right?

Show me where it isn't.