How Government works (animated)

[Questerr]

So you don't grasp basic economic terms?

Fair enough, you have no grasp of basic economic principles so it makes sense.

Socialism is defined as the control of the means of production by the state or central authority, often by direct ownership of industry by the state.

No it is not. That is one form socialism can take, but socialism itself is merely the worker ownership of the means of production. That has been the case since the concept of socialism existed, which predates the Marxist idea of centralized government-run socialism.

 

[Robertinfremont]

If you create value, you will not starve. And isn't it funny that no one starves under market capitalism, while millions starve under socialism. One can conclude you are not actually concerned with the welfare of others.

Under a free market, those who steal are criminals and should dealt with as such. Under socialism, those who steal are the government and use force to do so.

When in the Army serving in Germany, I had my own personal business venture loaning money to troopers. It was very profitable. I was able to travel to Berlin where I saw communism close and personal and it showed me proof of what it is all about. It is terrible. Men carrying machine guns were all over to enforce Socialist government. I vowed not to succumb to this on purpose.

 

[Robertinfremont]

It's 100% socialism. Socialism is the worker ownership of the means of production. It has nothing inherently to do with government.

Keep telling yourself that. Do you mean Government of do you mean workers? The way it works in real life is the Feds are in virtually every aspect of our lives.,

 

[Questerr]

Keep telling yourself that. Do you mean Government of do you mean workers? The way it works in real life is the Feds are in virtually every aspect of our lives.,

I mean workers. How many times do I have to repeat that?

 

[Questerr]

When in the Army serving in Germany, I had my own personal business venture loaning money to troopers. It was very profitable. I was able to travel to Berlin where I saw communism close and personal and it showed me proof of what it is all about. It is terrible. Men carrying machine guns were all over to enforce Socialist government. I vowed not to succumb to this on purpose.

You saw a Marxist communist dictatorship up close and personal. Those men were enforcing a dictatorship.

Would it be fair for me to use Pinochet's capitalist dictatorship in Chile as the example of all capitalism?

 

[Robertinfremont]

No it is not. That is one form socialism can take, but socialism itself is merely the worker ownership of the means of production. That has been the case since the concept of socialism existed, which predates the Marxist idea of centralized government-run socialism.

Are you aware of the history of Socialism where it originated in China? And there it failed. I have talked to many Chinese who tell me that in China they do not own the means of production.

This is a wonderful book if you want to learn more about the rise of civilization.

 

[Robertinfremont]

I mean workers. How many times do I have to repeat that?

So you remove government from socialism? And only workers make socialism. Try not be be in such a hurry given you tie up too much of my time.

 

[Questerr]

Are you aware of the history of Socialism where it originated in China? And there it failed. I have talked to many Chinese who tell me that in China they do not own the means of production.

This is a wonderful book if you want to learn more about the rise of civilization.

You think socialism originated in China? This is why I say you are ignorant on this topic. Pray tell, who do you think created the concepts behind socialism?

 

[Questerr]

So you remove government from socialism? And only workers make socialism. Try not be be in such a hurry given you tie up too much of my time.

Socialism can exist as part of or independent from government. The same as capitalism can. Ever heard of State Capitalism?

 

[Robertinfremont]

You saw a Marxist communist dictatorship up close and personal. Those men were enforcing a dictatorship.(1)

Would it be fair for me to use Pinochet's capitalist dictatorship in Chile as the example of all capitalism? (2)

As to point (1), I identified them as communist and yet Marxism speaks of the bridge to communism being socialism. But you must not be aware of that.

As to (2) So far you have been pretty adamant that you do not like Capitalism. The free market and you do not like it one bit.

 

[Robertinfremont]

You think socialism originated in China? This is why I say you are ignorant on this topic. Pray tell, who do you think created the concepts behind socialism?

Socialism is not new. It originated in China per Historian Will Durant.

Will devotes a chapter in his book to the origins of socialism. This is no average historian. This man is highly revered.

Seems you never heard of him and his wife as a pair of super good historians.

 

[Robertinfremont]

Socialism can exist as part of or independent from government. The same as capitalism can. Ever heard of State Capitalism?

Are you in your 20s; 30s' 40s' 50s' 60s' 70s' 80s or will you tell us more?

Generally when people discuss socialism they are discussing it as part of Government and not some firm in Idaho called Winco.

 

[aociswundumho]

Ah so the issue is that you think Socialism means "government does things".

It doesn't. Socialism is worker ownership of the means of production,

No, it isn't. Socialism is public ownership/control of the means of production. No one disputes that England's NHS is socialist, and the workers do not own it.

Dictionaries do not define words, they report usage. My definition comes from the way people actually use the word:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/us/socialism

A political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=socialism

Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/socialism

an economic theory or system in which the means of production, distribution, and exchange are owned by the community collectively, usually through the state.

https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/socialism

a political system that aims to create a society in which everyone has equal opportunities and in which the most important industries are owned or controlled by the whole community

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/socialism

any economic or political system based on government ownership and control of important businesses and methods of production

https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=socialism&rdfrom=Socialism

Any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods.

https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/social-science/government/concepts/socialism

general term for the political and economic theory that advocates a system of collective or government ownership and management of the means of production and distribution of goods.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/socialism

a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

https://www.allwords.com/query.php?SearchType=3&Keyword=socialism&goquery=Find+it!&Language=ENG

Any of various political philosophies that support social and economic equality, collective decision-making and public control of productive capital and natural resources, as advocated by socialists.

https://mnemonicdictionary.com/word/socialism

a political theory advocating state ownership of industry

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/socialism

Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.

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The reason people like you define socialism as "the workers" owning the means of production, is so you can play the "not real socialism" card against all of the murderous, disastrous, examples of socialism that have taken place in the world.

which is exactly what the Mondragon Corporation is.

All employee owned businesses are examples of socialism.

Mondragon is a private corporation that competes for profits in a market economy. The owners of this corporation are capitalists:

Like other European companies, Mondragon is exposed to fierce competition from developing world competitors with lower labour costs. Its response has been to set up factories – or buy companies – in other parts of the world. There are now 94 subsidiaries producing goods from Vietnam to Chile, Morocco and Russia.

Workers at these, however, are not co-op members (fewer than half of Mondragon's workforce are members) – meaning they are also raw-blooded capitalists, living off the labour of others.

Mondragon is aware of the contradictions of preaching about co-operatives while behaving like a capitalist.

Mondragon: Spain's giant co-operative where times are hard but few go bust

The northern Spanish town is dominated by its eponymous €15bn corporation that controls over 100 smaller co-ops

www.theguardian.com

 

[Robertinfremont]

You saw a Marxist communist dictatorship up close and personal. Those men were enforcing a dictatorship.

Would it be fair for me to use Pinochet's capitalist dictatorship in Chile as the example of all capitalism?

Do you not realize that Democrats are a form of dictatorship?

 

[aociswundumho]

Socialism can exist as part of or independent from government. The same as capitalism can. Ever heard of State Capitalism?

Yes, it's another idiotic, incoherent term created by leftists in order to play the "not real socialism" card.

Think about it: capitalism is private property in the means of production, so "state capitalism" must mean "public private property in the means of production", which is totally incoherent.

 

[Questerr]

As to point (1), I identified them as communist and yet Marxism speaks of the bridge to communism being socialism. But you must not be aware of that.

As to (2) So far you have been pretty adamant that you do not like Capitalism. The free market and you do not like it one bit.

Yes, and Marxism is wrong.

I love the free market. The free market is not capitalism. I fully support market socialist systems like Mutualism or Syndicalism.

 

[Robertinfremont]

Historian Will Durant reported this

Will Durant: What I Believe

will-durant.com

I was a Socialist in my youth and sympathized with the Soviet regime until I visited Russia in 1932. What I saw there led me to deprecate the extension of that system to any other land. Experience and history have taught me the instinctive basis and economic necessity of competition and private property. I’m not so fanatical a worshipper of liberty as some of my radical or conservative friends; when liberty exceeds intelligence it begets chaos; which begets dictatorship. We had too much economic liberty in the later nineteenth century due to our free land and our relative exemption from external danger. We have too much moral liberty today, due to increasing wealth and diminishing religious belief. The age of liberty is ending under the pressure of external dangers; the freedom of the part varies with the security of the whole.

I do not resent the conflicts and difficulties of life. In my case, they have been far outweighed by good fortune, reasonable health, loyal friends and a happy family life. I have met so many good people that I have almost lost my faith in the wickedness of mankind.

I suspect that when I die I shall be dead. I would look upon endless existence as a curse as did the Flying Dutchman and the Wandering Jew. Death is life’s greatest invention; perpetually replacing the worn with the new. And after twenty volumes, it will be sweet to sleep.

 

[Questerr]

Yes, it's another idiotic, incoherent term created by leftists in order to play the "not real socialism" card.

Think about it: capitalism is private property in the means of production, so "state capitalism" must mean "public private property in the means of production", which is totally incoherent.

Otto Von Bismarck was a leftist?

 

[Questerr]

Socialism is not new. It originated in China per Historian Will Durant.

Will devotes a chapter in his book to the origins of socialism. This is no average historian. This man is highly revered.

Seems you never heard of him and his wife as a pair of super good historians.

Socialism originated in France in the late 18th Century per the guy who ****ing invented socialism Henri de Saint-Simon. Will Durant is wrong.

 

[Questerr]

Are you in your 20s; 30s' 40s' 50s' 60s' 70s' 80s or will you tell us more?

Generally when people discuss socialism they are discussing it as part of Government and not some firm in Idaho called Winco.

Because generally people are woefully ignorant when it comes to what socialism actually is.

 

[Robertinfremont]

Yes, and Marxism is wrong.

I love the free market. The free market is not capitalism. I fully support market socialist systems like Mutualism or Syndicalism.

What clogs up the free market is Government my friend. What is your age bracket please? Have you traveled the world?

You support a form of socialism that is not related to Government so you tell us. But the free market is not about Government at all.

When I went to college, I could look up all the teachers to learn their bios. I am not seeking that you want private but that you are willing to make public.

 

[Robertinfremont]

Socialism originated in France in the late 18th Century per the guy who ****ing invented socialism Henri de Saint-Simon. Will Durant is wrong.

Had you studied historian Will Durant, he dates socialism back to around 5000 BC which means France did not then exist.

If you mean to curse, you must learn how to work past the forum censors. It seems you are cursing.

 

[Questerr]

No, it isn't. Socialism is public ownership/control of the means of production. No one disputes that England's NHS is socialist, and the workers do not own it.

Dictionaries do not define words, they report usage. My definition comes from the way people actually use the word:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/us/socialism

A political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=socialism

Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/socialism

an economic theory or system in which the means of production, distribution, and exchange are owned by the community collectively, usually through the state.

https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/socialism

a political system that aims to create a society in which everyone has equal opportunities and in which the most important industries are owned or controlled by the whole community

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/socialism

any economic or political system based on government ownership and control of important businesses and methods of production

https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=socialism&rdfrom=Socialism

Any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods.

https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/social-science/government/concepts/socialism

general term for the political and economic theory that advocates a system of collective or government ownership and management of the means of production and distribution of goods.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/socialism

a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

https://www.allwords.com/query.php?SearchType=3&Keyword=socialism&goquery=Find+it!&Language=ENG

Any of various political philosophies that support social and economic equality, collective decision-making and public control of productive capital and natural resources, as advocated by socialists.

https://mnemonicdictionary.com/word/socialism

a political theory advocating state ownership of industry

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/socialism

Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The reason people like you define socialism as "the workers" owning the means of production, is so you can play the "not real socialism" card against all of the murderous, disastrous, examples of socialism that have taken place in the world.




Mondragon is a private corporation that competes for profits in a market economy. The owners of this corporation are capitalists:

Thank you for providing lots of definitions that back me up.

Would you play the "not real capitalism" card or "crony capitalism" card if I started busting out example of capitalism you don't like?

Socialism does not in any way say there can't be a market. Multiple forms of socialism (Mutualism and Syndicalism, for example) are predicated on there being a market economy.

The owners of the Mondragon corporation are its workers and thus by definition, not capitalists.

 

[Questerr]

Had you studied historian Will Durant, he dates socialism back to around 5000 BC which means France did not then exist.

If you mean to curse, you must learn how to work past the forum censors. It seems you are cursing.

Then he's completely wrong. Socialism as a concept didn't exist prior to the conceptualization of economics in the early to mid 18th Century.

 

[Robertinfremont]

Because generally people are woefully ignorant when it comes to what socialism actually is.

Yup you tell us the French invented it when I know for a fact that in 5000 BC in China they put in the Socialist system.

Why are you so secretive as to who you are?

You lecture us and we know nothing at all about you. We are told by you to believe in you.

Wait, more like you demand we believe in you.