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How Free Is Your State?

As you know, there is no "loophole". That one is a bit "looped" is all. :)

liberals often use neologisms that make no sense to people who understand gun laws. those include

1) the gun show loophole (doesn't exist)

2 "assault weapon" a term the military does not recognize nor does the ATF handbook on gun laws (a copy sits on my desk)

3) High capacity magazines-actually the correct term is Standard capacity magazine for most of those "banned"
 
They bought the guns illegally. Not a "loophole". Backpedal much ?

If you bothered reading the link I provided, you'd see, in line freakin three, what I'm referencing. There are more than one loopholes in CO state law regarding gun show purchases, one of the major ones regarding Columbine is the fact the people making purchases for others CANNOT be prosecuted for purchasing weapons for people who are not allowed to purchase them on their own. A Ms. Robyn Anderson purchased guns for the two in 1998 at a gun show.

Authorities are still trying to make a case against Robyn Anderson, the Columbine High student who purchased three of the four weapons used by killers Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold.

Until now, Anderson has been described by police as a witness in the case.

But prosecutors and investigators told the Denver Rocky Mountain News that a loophole in federal law has stopped them -- so far -- from charging her with making an illegal "straw purchase" of a firearm.

Federal agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms confirmed that they are still pursuing an active investigation into one of those weapons -- they won't say which one -- to determine who sold it to her.

"But it's like looking for a needle in a haystack," said Marcus Motte, special agent for the ATF office in Denver.

Agents were able to trace two of the firearms to the seller at the Tanner Gun Show in Denver after an unidentified source tipped agents to the fact that Anderson had purchased those weapons.

When confronted with that information, days after the slayings, Anderson admitted her role. But she told agents all three weapons were purchased in a "private sale."

Agents have not been able to trace one of the guns to a seller, and agents are still looking.

"If it was sold (at the gun show) by a federally licensed firearms dealer, either they didn't fill out the paperwork, in which case the dealer is liable, or the application was falsified by Anderson, which would be a felony," Motte said.

The case has been closely scrutinized.

"We wanted to prosecute her," said Aura Leigh Ferguson, assistant district attorney in Jefferson County. "But (in) ... a private sale ... we couldn't make a case."

Anderson, then 18, admitted to ATF investigators shortly after the April 20 shootings that she bought two shotguns and a 9 mm semiautomatic carbine for Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold at a gun show in metro Denver months before the crime.

Harris and Klebold were 17 at the time, too young to legally purchase the guns.

Two other individuals -- Mark Manes and Phillip Duran -- are facing felony charges for their part in selling the two killers a semiautomatic TEC-DC9 pistol. It is illegal for anyone to sell a handgun to a minor.

Manes has pleaded guilty to the charges and is awaiting sentencing. He could face up to nine years in prison. Charges against Duran are pending.

Many people have questioned why Anderson was never charged for her role in obtaining the other firearms for two minors.

Under the Brady Law, anyone who buys a pistol or a long gun from a licensed firearms dealer must fill out an application and undergo a background check. Circumventing that background check is a violation of federal law.

But that law does not apply to private sales, only to people licensed by the federal government to sell guns.

"(If there) was no application, there was no falsification of any document," Ferguson said.

Calls to Anderson were not returned, and efforts to reach her for comment through other parties were unsuccessful.

Anderson bought the guns at the Tanner Gun Show with money provided by Harris and Klebold.

She was a friend of Klebold's and his prom date days before he and Harris killed 13 people, wounded 23 and committed suicide in the Columbine library.

She said on national television months ago that she knew nothing of the plans by Harris and Klebold to attack the school when she purchased the guns. She has since refused to talk with reporters.

Police said during the early part of their investigation that they considered Anderson a witness, not a suspect, in the case.

But John Kiekbusch, law enforcement division chief for the Jefferson County Sheriff's Department, said in a recent interview that investigators had long wanted to bring charges against the girl for her role.

***"As I understand it, it's a loophole in the straw-purchase law that prevents her from being charged," Kiekbusch told the News. "We certainly felt she should have faced charges for what she did."***

Ferguson said the district attorney's office "advised" the sheriff's department on the issue but has never been presented a case against Anderson. She said there is no Colorado straw-purchase statute that applies in this situation.

***Colorado lawmakers last spring were considering a straw-purchase law aimed at making it a crime to purchase a firearm for another person who could not legally buy a gun themselves. The bill was directed toward convicted criminals who get people with no criminal record buy weapons for them.***

But the bill was among several gun-related proposals withdrawn by state lawmakers immediately after the Columbine shootings.

Motte and other agents from the ATF traced all of the firearms used in the killings but were able to locate the final point of sale on only the pistol sold by Manes, and two of the weapons purchased by Anderson.

Larry Russell, a licensed federal firearms dealer, sold the TEC-DC9 in a private sale at the Tanner Gun Show before he obtained his firearms dealers license. But he told police he did not know who he sold the weapon to. Manes came forward to inform authorities of his involvement.

When he pleaded guilty last month, Manes told a judge that he bought 100 rounds of ammunition for the TEC-DC9 for Harris the night before the Columbine shootings.

Authorities said Anderson told them she did not know the identity of the gun seller from whom she bought the weapons. She has said she believed Harris and Klebold wanted the weapons for target shooting or other legitimate reasons.
 
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liberals often use neologisms that make no sense to people who understand gun laws. those include

1) the gun show loophole (doesn't exist)

2 "assault weapon" a term the military does not recognize nor does the ATF handbook on gun laws (a copy sits on my desk)

3) High capacity magazines-actually the correct term is Standard capacity magazine for most of those "banned"

"liberals do this" and "liberals do that".

Pathetic, for many reasons.

How big of tantrum would you throw if I was dumb enough to use "conservatives do this" and "conservatives do that"?
 
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Compare and contrast. Most of the 10 states receiving the most federal funding are red, and most of the 10 recieving the least are blue. Also notice which states seem to be struggling more.
TaxProf Blog: Red States Feed at Federal Trough, Blue States Supply the Feed

This one's more recent, but same result.
Economist's View: "Red States, Blue States and the Distribution of Federal Spending"

In short, this "freedom" index is rather decieving.

I love that we suck the government teet, spend far less than liberal states, and reap the benefits. That's why I wanted our strong Democrats to stay *in* Congress. They did such a lovely job before.
 
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If you bothered reading the link I provided, you'd see, in line freakin three, what I'm referencing. There are more than one loopholes in CO state law regarding gun show purchases, one of the major ones regarding Columbine is the fact the people making purchases for others CANNOT be prosecuted for purchasing weapons for people who are not allowed to purchase them on their own. A Ms. Robyn Anderson purchased guns for the two in 1998 at a gun show.
I guess you don't understand that the US Attorney could have charged anderson under 18 USC federally.
 
"liberals do this" and "liberals do that".

Pathetic, for many reasons.

How big of tantrum would you throw if I was dumb enough to use "conservatives do this" and "conservatives do that"?

OK I will stick to ignorant anti gun liberals as opposed to say a liberal like Ron Kuby who carried a revolver while a law student at Cornell and as a defense attorney in NYC
 
In our view, individuals should be allowed to dispose of their lives, liberties, and properties as they see fit, as long as they do not infringe on the rights of others...

... unless they're gay. Judging by the rankings of the states that allow gay marriage (Vermont--30, Connecticut--38, Massachusetts--46, New Jersey--49), apparently gay rights aren't high on the freedom scale.
 
OK I will stick to ignorant anti gun liberals as opposed to say a liberal like Ron Kuby who carried a revolver while a law student at Cornell and as a defense attorney in NYC

How about sticking to the subject instead of going off on retarded hyper-partisan tangents?

I've never once had to supplement my arguments with stupid snide comments that generalize my opponents.
 
How about sticking to the subject instead of going off on retarded hyper-partisan tangents?

I've never once had to supplement my arguments with stupid snide comments that generalize my opponents.

No perhaps not you just made an error in fact as to your claims
 
I guess you don't understand that the US Attorney could have charged anderson under 18 USC federally.


Coulda woulda shoulda. Doesn't change a thing.

You've lost sight of the original debate. Deuce accused me of "not understanding" the true intent of the report, I countered saying it was an obviously biased and subjective ranking, dependent on one narrow definition of "freedom". I referenced their asinine proposal to reopen the "gunshow loophole" as an example of how they throw pragmatism and local attitudes towards social/economic/political polices out the window in favor of ideological rigidity, deuce tried to raise an incorrect point and the whole debate derailed from there.

Now either get back on the subject or start another Gun Control thread on the Constitution board. I'm bored with this insufferable tangent deuc(h)e pulled me out on.
 
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Coulda woulda shoulda. Doesn't change a thing.

You've lost sight of the original debate. Deuce accused me of "not understanding" the true intent of the report, I countered saying it was an obviously biased and subjective ranking, dependent on one narrow definition of "freedom". I referenced their asinine proposal to reopen the "gunshow loophole" as an example of how they throw pragmatism and local attitudes towards social/economic/political polices out the window in favor of ideological rigidity, deuce tried to raise an incorrect point and the whole debate derailed from there.

Now either get back on the subject or start another Gun Control thread on the Constitution board. I'm bored with this insufferable tangent deuc(h)e pulled me out on.

as you wish-- my job is to spread light and not to master
 
Just to let you folks know....

"North Dakota is a stereotypical conservative state
that performs quite well on economic freedom"

Is not really true. We are some of the most conservative folks you'll meet, but we are also still among the most socialistic...literally. It also happens to work very well for us. Part of the state story is that you couldn't convince us how to operate otherwise.
 
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Just to let you folks know....

"North Dakota is a stereotypical conservative state
that performs quite well on economic freedom"

Is not really true. We are some of the most conservative folks you'll meet, but we are also still among the most socialistic...literally. It also happens to work very well for us. Part of the state story is that you couldn't convince us how to operate otherwise.

My brain cannot handle the idea of two opposing ideas existing simultaneously. It's...just...so...UNAMERICAN!
 
been looking for something to provide a state-by-state version of the Economic Freedom Index (which goes country-by-country) for some time, and finally a Friend sent it to me:


Freedom in the 50 States | Mercatus


I wonder what the implications would be if we compared, generally, how free the states were v how well they were performing in the recession?

The Mercatus Center at George Mason University, a libertarian think tank founded and funded by the Koch brothers God Bless their heart), released its latest this latest snapshot of liberty in the U.S.A: "Freedom in the 50 States: An Index of Personal and Economic Freedom."

As is usually the case in studies of this sort, high-population blue states inevitably end up ranking last. The metrics used by the authors of the study penalize high taxes, regulations and, in general, just about anything that restricts the freedom of individuals and corporations to do as they please, from gun control laws and healthcare mandates to rules requiring seat belts and motorcycle helmets.

Befitting libertarian sensibilities, the ideological biases in the Mercatus report do not purely jibe with conservative Republican priorities -- states get points for decriminalizing marijuana and allowing same sex marriage or civil unions, for example -- but nevertheless, the political gist is hard to ignore. Blue states cluster at the bottom, while red states are at the top.

But here's the brutal truth, apart from the politics: Most Americans are not free. A telling example: In the Mercatus rankings the two states blessed by the highest freedom quotient boast a combined population of a little over 2 million -- South Dakota and New Hampshire (the latter of which, admittedly, went for Obama in 2008). The bottom three states were New York, New Jersey and California, which have a combined population of over 65 million.

Sixty-five million Americans in just three states cower under a totalitarian shadow! That's a little distressing!

New York is the least free by a considerable margin. This will surprise few residents of the Empire state. In order from the bottom, New York is followed by New Jersey, California, Hawaii, Massachusetts, and Rhode Island. Unfortunately, these states make up a substantial portion of the total American population.

I feel the authors' pain. Once you have defined "freedom" according to a specific set of criteria it must be just a tad confounding to realize how many Americans live in a state of relative slavery. Note the snark: "Few residents of the Empire state" will be surprised at their lack of freedom. And yet: 19 million Americans still call themselves New Yorkers. Surely, this is a great bafflement.

Of course, we can also nitpick about what really constitutes true "freedom." For the authors, a mandate to buy healthcare insurance is a dastardly imposition on individual rights. (The authors are working within a construct defined by the political philosopher Norman Barry, "belief in the efficiency and morality of unhampered markets, the system of private property, and individual rights and a deep distrust of taxation, egalitarianism, compulsory welfare, and the power of the state.")

But from my perspective, not having access to universal healthcare is an imposition on my freedom. The fact that for most Americans healthcare is tied to one's employer is a dread shackle limiting the freedom of movement of every worker. How much more liberated would we all be if we could switch jobs or work for ourselves without the fear that at any moment we might be crippled by an exorbitantly expensive health emergency? Similarly, a state requirement that employers offer paid parental leave (another black mark against California) clearly frees me to be a better father to my newborn. I'd really love to see what would happen to internal migration patterns in the United States if all the big blue states had universal single-payer healthcare, while everyone else was left at the mercy of a completely unregulated private market. That civil war would end rather quickly, I suspect.

To their credit, the authors point to an essay written by Nick Gillespie in 2005 that gives some insight into the mystery of self-hating liberals: "Live Free or Die of Boredom: Is 'economic freedom' just another word for nothing left to do?"

There's just not as much going on in South Dakota as there is in San Francisco, Herb Caen's infamous "Baghdad by the Bay." This fact is indisputable. I am personally intimately acquainted with the environs of southern New Hampshire, metropolitan New York and the San Francisco Bay Area -- and I love them all equally deeply -- but I can tell you without fear of contradiction that the food, entertainment and cultural options are far more numerous, diverse and, quite often, qualitatively superior in New York and California than they are in my favorite live-free-or-die state. Which is not at all to say that New Hampshire is lacking in charm or strong points. Bucolic splendor has its virtues; I enjoy listening to the loons cackle while canoeing about Nubanusit Lake as much as anyone. But I need more.

The millions who cluster on the coasts delight in their thriving arts communities and smorgasbord of dining options and the sheer intellectual stimulation that accrues from the helter-skelter activity of a big city. Many of us have agreed to an implicit trade-off: We'll put up with the impositions of big government because we are getting something essential out of the deal. Freedom is not a zero sum game. And you know, some of us might not even think that paying high taxes to support a robust safety net for those less fortunate is the worst thing that ever happened. We might even pride ourselves on it.

As best I understand it, the authors explain the persistence of these population clusters as holdover relics from the days when the surrounding regions enjoyed dynamic economic growth under less regulated regimes. So San Francisco, for example, exploded because of the benefits that accrued from its peerless logistics -- the Bay -- and its proximity to gold, timber and agricultural resources. But now that the state has imposed its overweening presence into everyone's private affairs, the citizens of California will supposedly flee to more welcoming climes. Idaho (the fourth freest state) or bust! And the culture will follow.

[A]s we noted during many of the talks we delivered after the first edition of the index appeared, we fully expect people in the freer states to develop and benefit from the kinds of institutions (such as symphonies and museums) and amenities (better restaurants and cultural attractions) seen in some of the older cities on the coasts (in less-free states such as California and New York) as they grow and prosper.

Perhaps so. Certainly, there has been a significant population shift from the Rust Belt and Northeast to the South and Southwest, which might lend support to that thesis. California's population did increase its population by 4 million from 2000-2010, but even that represented the slowest rate of growth in many decades. And to be fair, the restaurant options in the New Hampshire town I know the best, Peterborough, have undoubtedly improved over the last 20 years.

Then again, I would say the same is true for Berkeley, Calif. Time hasn't stopped here, either. So even while the heartland (that "bastion of freedom," according to the authors) catches up, the liberal coastal enclaves aren't standing still. The food was pretty damn good when I arrived in 1986 -- but it's even better now. The cultural opportunities are near infinite, and there's no real reason to expect that to change. There's a self-sustaining dynamism to large cities and population centers -- a greater range of employment opportunities and employment niches that feed upon and reinforce themselves. Berkeley, for example, positively seethes with psychotherapists, all of whom are presumably busily charging $150 an hour to talk patients through their paradoxical willingness to sacrifice their inalienable freedoms for the privilege of being able to buy locally sourced organic arugula at the farmers' market around the corner. (No one ever said it was easy to live under the shadow of totalitarian oppression, even if the coffee is better.) And you better believe those psychotherapists constitute a major source of arugula demand themselves. And so it goes.

How the rest of the 21st century plays out is anyone's guess. Maybe California's current fiscal troubles really do presage an uninterrupted fall from grace. Maybe the burgeoning South will establish a political hegemony that delivers the ultimate libertarian utopia of freedom-loving Tea Party dreams. Or maybe, just maybe, the citizens who swell the ranks of rising urban centers in Virginia and North Carolina and Texas -- diverse, dynamic, conceivably interested in better healthcare for themselves and their children -- will find themselves beginning to make the same trade-offs that New Yorkers and Californians once agreed to. The country seemed headed in one direction in 2008 and another in 2010 --

One thing is certain: There are a lot of Californians and New Yorkers who don't think it's "unfortunate" to be at the bottom of the Mercatus Center list. On the contrary, we wouldn't have it any other way. And being Americans, I guess we're free to feel that way.

Why do liberals hate freedom so much? - How the World Works - Salon.com


Diving Mullah
 
As is usually the case in studies of this sort, high-population blue states inevitably end up ranking last. The metrics used by the authors of the study penalize high taxes, regulations and, in general, just about anything that restricts the freedom of individuals and corporations to do as they please, from gun control laws and healthcare mandates to rules requiring seat belts and motorcycle helmets. Befitting libertarian sensibilities, the ideological biases in the Mercatus report do not purely jibe with conservative Republican priorities -- states get points for decriminalizing marijuana and allowing same sex marriage or civil unions, for example -- but nevertheless, the political gist is hard to ignore. Blue states cluster at the bottom, while red states are at the top.

But here's the brutal truth, apart from the politics: Most Americans are not free. A telling example: In the Mercatus rankings the two states blessed by the highest freedom quotient boast a combined population of a little over 2 million -- South Dakota and New Hampshire (the latter of which, admittedly, went for Obama in 2008). The bottom three states were New York, New Jersey and California, which have a combined population of over 65 million.

Sixty-five million Americans in just three states cower under a totalitarian shadow! That's a little distressing!

New York is the least free by a considerable margin. This will surprise few residents of the Empire state. In order from the bottom, New York is followed by New Jersey, California, Hawaii, Massachusetts, and Rhode Island. Unfortunately, these states make up a substantial portion of the total American population.

I feel the authors' pain. Once you have defined "freedom" according to a specific set of criteria it must be just a tad confounding to realize how many Americans live in a state of relative slavery. Note the snark: "Few residents of the Empire state" will be surprised at their lack of freedom. And yet: 19 million Americans still call themselves New Yorkers. Surely, this is a great bafflement.

Of course, we can also nitpick about what really constitutes true "freedom." For the authors, a mandate to buy healthcare insurance is a dastardly imposition on individual rights. (The authors are working within a construct defined by the political philosopher Norman Barry, belief in the efficiency and morality of unhampered markets, the system of private property, and individual rights and a deep distrust of taxation, egalitarianism, compulsory welfare, and the power of the state.")

But from my perspective, not having access to universal healthcare is an imposition on my freedom. The fact that for most Americans healthcare is tied to one's employer is a dread shackle limiting the freedom of movement of every worker. How much more liberated would we all be if we could switch jobs or work for ourselves without the fear that at any moment we might be crippled by an exorbitantly expensive health emergency? Similarly, a state requirement that employers offer paid parental leave (another black mark against California) clearly frees me to be a better father to my newborn. I'd really love to see what would happen to internal migration patterns in the United States if all the big blue states had universal single-payer healthcare, while everyone else was left at the mercy of a completely unregulated private market. That civil war would end rather quickly, I suspect.

To their credit, the authors point to an essay written by Nick Gillespie in 2005 that gives some insight into the mystery of self-hating liberals: "Live Free or Die of Boredom: Is 'economic freedom' just another word for nothing left to do?"

There's just not as much going on in South Dakota as there is in San Francisco, Herb Caen's infamous "Baghdad by the Bay." This fact is indisputable. I am personally intimately acquainted with the environs of southern New Hampshire, metropolitan New York and the San Francisco Bay Area -- and I love them all equally deeply -- but I can tell you without fear of contradiction that the food, entertainment and cultural options are far more numerous, diverse and, quite often, qualitatively superior in New York and California than they are in my favorite live-free-or-die state. Which is not at all to say that New Hampshire is lacking in charm or strong points. Bucolic splendor has its virtues; I enjoy listening to the loons cackle while canoeing about Nubanusit Lake as much as anyone. But I need more.

The millions who cluster on the coasts delight in their thriving arts communities and smorgasbord of dining options and the sheer intellectual stimulation that accrues from the helter-skelter activity of a big city. Many of us have agreed to an implicit trade-off: We'll put up with the impositions of big government because we are getting something essential out of the deal. Freedom is not a zero sum game. And you know, some of us might not even think that paying high taxes to support a robust safety net for those less fortunate is the worst thing that ever happened. We might even pride ourselves on it.

As best I understand it, the authors explain the persistence of these population clusters as holdover relics from the days when the surrounding regions enjoyed dynamic economic growth under less regulated regimes. So San Francisco, for example, exploded because of the benefits that accrued from its peerless logistics -- the Bay -- and its proximity to gold, timber and agricultural resources. But now that the state has imposed its overweening presence into everyone's private affairs, the citizens of California will supposedly flee to more welcoming climes. Idaho (the fourth freest state) or bust! And the culture will follow.

[A]s we noted during many of the talks we delivered after the first edition of the index appeared, we fully expect people in the freer states to develop and benefit from the kinds of institutions (such as symphonies and museums) and amenities (better restaurants and cultural attractions) seen in some of the older cities on the coasts (in less-free states such as California and New York) as they grow and prosper.

Perhaps so. Certainly, there has been a significant population shift from the Rust Belt and Northeast to the South and Southwest, which might lend support to that thesis. California's population did increase its population by 4 million from 2000-2010, but even that represented the slowest rate of growth in many decades. And to be fair, the restaurant options in the New Hampshire town I know the best, Peterborough, have undoubtedly improved over the last 20 years.

Then again, I would say the same is true for Berkeley, Calif. Time hasn't stopped here, either. So even while the heartland (that "bastion of freedom," according to the authors) catches up, the liberal coastal enclaves aren't standing still. The food was pretty damn good when I arrived in 1986 -- but it's even better now. The cultural opportunities are near infinite, and there's no real reason to expect that to change. There's a self-sustaining dynamism to large cities and population centers -- a greater range of employment opportunities and employment niches that feed upon and reinforce themselves. Berkeley, for example, positively seethes with psychotherapists, all of whom are presumably busily charging $150 an hour to talk patients through their paradoxical willingness to sacrifice their inalienable freedoms for the privilege of being able to buy locally sourced organic arugula at the farmers' market around the corner. (No one ever said it was easy to live under the shadow of totalitarian oppression, even if the coffee is better.) And you better believe those psychotherapists constitute a major source of arugula demand themselves. And so it goes.

How the rest of the 21st century plays out is anyone's guess. Maybe California's current fiscal troubles really do presage an uninterrupted fall from grace. Maybe the burgeoning South will establish a political hegemony that delivers the ultimate libertarian utopia of freedom-loving Tea Party dreams. Or maybe, just maybe, the citizens who swell the ranks of rising urban centers in Virginia and North Carolina and Texas -- diverse, dynamic, conceivably interested in better healthcare for themselves and their children -- will find themselves beginning to make the same trade-offs that New Yorkers and Californians once agreed to. The country seemed headed in one direction in 2008 and another in 2010 -- I certainly won't pretend to know where it's going next.

But one thing I do know: There are a lot of Californians and New Yorkers who don't think it's "unfortunate" to be at the bottom of the Mercatus Center list. On the contrary, we wouldn't have it any other way. And being Americans, I guess we're free to feel that way.

Why do liberals hate freedom so much? - How the World Works - Salon.com
 
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