• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

How does one ban abortion & not violate the woman's current legal human rights?

And I absolutely disagree. The only thing that happens as a direct result of the sex act is that sperm are deposited in the vagina. The act does not put any sperm in direct contact with an ovum capable of being fertilized. It does not directly cause the formation of a zygote or the implantation of the blastocyst.

The sperm try to swim up to the ova. They may or may not make it and there may or may not be ova there. A sperm may touch an ovum, and if its chemical coating (I forget what chemical this is) is strong enough, the ovum will open and the small head part of the sperm will go in and the rest will be destroyed. Then, processes for the formation of the zygote occur. Then, the zygote divides (morula stage) and the morula, reaching a sufficient number of divisions, reaches the blastocyst stage. When the blastocyst cannot survive on internal resources and scavenging, it implants (ideally) in the uterine wall.

The vast majority of zygotes, morulae, and blastocysts do not reach successful implantation (some say up to 75% of these and early implanted embryos do not implant or stay implanted). There are many reasons why. One is that the endometrial tissue seems to screen out some blastocysts right away. However, there may also be too slow a development of the placenta or implanted embryo. Some speed is important because the processes which allow the blastocyst to avoid getting kicked out by the female's immune system depend on this.

The human placenta, like other mammalian placentas, cloaks itself and the blastocyst/embryo from detection by the female immune system by secreting on its fetal side the same the secretion used for cloaking by the parasitic nematode worm. The cloaking is not completely successful, so certain immune attack T-cells of the female do attack the placenta and embryo.

The embryo chemically signals the fetal side of the placenta to produce the enzyme indoleamine 2, 3-dioxygenase, which catabolizes the local L-tryptophan (essential amino acid) in the female, which starves those immune attack T-cells of their essential nutrient, so that, to survive, they have to go into latency, a state in which they cannot function to protect the female or reproduce. In experiments with mice, when a chemical agent was injected into the placenta to stop the production of the enzyme, the immune attack T-cells were roused from latency and immediately attacked and expelled the placenta+embryo unit in all cases except those of embryos derived from identical twin inbreeding. The female's immune system is designed to preserve genetic integrity and to expel embryos that chromosomally deviate from it sufficiently in all but sex chromosomes.

So there are many points in between the semen deposit and implantation and the continuing implanted state of the embryo where things have to happen for pregnancy to occur. You would claim that, after the sex act initiated by one or both people, everything else is just "natural biological processes." But these processes involve distinct biological units. Sperm, ova, zygotes, morulae, and blastocysts can all live outside the female body and be preserved alive, if only by freezing. The sperm initiates touching the oocyte and is reponsible for its opening; the oocyte appears passive. The blastocyst implants; the female body resists rather than cooperating. The blastocyst makes the placenta, and it initiates use of some of the female's tissue, but the female's body does not. The placenta produces the enzyme that starves certain of the female's attack T-cells, but it is the embryo whose signal alone initiates this production.

If you would like to treat the zygote, morula, blastocyst, embryo, fetus as merely part of the female's body because they are inside her body boundaries, then the human female's choice to continue the pregnancy or end it is simply the first directly relevant human decision about control over her body after the decision to have sex. Notwithstanding the fact that a prior decision to use bc pills or a post-coital decision to use Plan B could prevent ovulation, a decision to use a spermicide could kill off the traveling sperm, a prior decision to have an IUD could increase the resistance of the endometrial wall to implantation, and a post-coital decision to take certain types of bc pills might also be able to increase that resistance.

But if you would like to treat it as a distinct human entity with a right to life equal to that of a human being, then it has the same responsibilities as other human beings not to abuse that right. It is then the human person initiating the implantation into the female human being's bodily tissue and suppression of her immune system. Those are things no other human persons have the right to do, even if they are mentally incompetent, hypnotized, or behaving unconsciously in sleep, and they are things that would justify the female human being's use of deadly force to stop regardless of their unintentional nature.

I'm standing by that.

You can disagree and stand by it all you want. You're wrong. Biology disagrees with you. You have to do a lot of gymnastics to try to make your argument, mine follows the simplicity of biology and science. Occam's razor for what it is.
 
HI JERRY!
HI AGENT J! I see you're changing my words in your quote box, which is you saying my format and style aren't good enough for you, which is very arrogent on your part. When you drop the aditude and quote me correctly, then we can have a conversation.
 
You can disagree and stand by it all you want. You're wrong. Biology disagrees with you. You have to do a lot of gymnastics to try to make your argument, mine follows the simplicity of biology and science. Occam's razor for what it is.

Your argument just ignores the objective empirical details. That's not about Occam's razor. That's all about leaving out the inconvenient details.

Scientific change comes about precisely because, as the inconvenient details are brought up again and again and can't be integrated into the existing theory, the theory is recognized as weak. Then a theory is proposed which can account for many of those details as well as what the previous theory has accounted for, and it is favored by younger scientists and fought by older ones whose careers and publications have been wholly invested in the previous theory.

The new theory is always more complex in some way. This is how Einstein replaced Newton on gravity. Newton's still used for calculation when the data fit within his theory's limitations, because the type of math necessary for Einstein's theory is more complex, but everyone understands that Einstein's explanations are the accurate ones at a higher level of generality.

Science is only simple in the pioneering stage for some research area, but it becomes complex in later stages of research in that area as ignored details have to be accounted for.
 
Last edited:
but it is, nothing difficult about a question with only one answer.

if you want to say the reality of it isnt simply thats fine but the question itself is as simply as it gets.

Are all Supreme Court decisions decided with a 9-0 vote?

vasuderatorrent
 
That was never my argument, so I guess if inventing things is the only way you feel you can advance your argument, then OK. But it's pretty well pointless.

I never said it was your argument.
 
Meaningless to the fact theres only one factual answer :shrug:

No. Your theory suggests that all Supreme Court justices would chose that one factual answer. I have never heard of such a case.

Step into reality with the rest of us. It is bad but not that bad.

vasuderatorrent
 
1.)No. Your theory suggests that all Supreme Court justices would chose that one factual answer. I have never heard of such a case.

2.)Step into reality with the rest of us. It is bad but not that bad.

vasuderatorrent

1.) no it doesnt do that at all lol, nice try, pick a different strawman maybe that one will work better and not be an instant fail. Not to mention how do judges determine human rights again? Double fail. Im starting to think you are a kid.
2.) there is only one factual answer and that wont change no matter how much you deny that truth and who is "the rest of us" because the vast majority of this thread recognize this fact.
 
1.) pick a different strawman how do judges determine human rights again?
2.) Im starting to think you are a kid.
3.) there is only one factual answer and that wont change no matter how much you deny that truth
4.) who is "the rest of us"
5.) the vast majority of this thread recognize this fact.

1.) Scarecrow??? I think a scarecrow is made of straw.
2.) Good conclusion. I am very young.
3.) This leaves no room for debate, discussion or any efforts at problem solving. That sounds pointless to me.
4.) Humans
5.) I am not aware of any facts. When the Supreme Court makes a decision one side produces the majority opinion. The other party produces the dissenting opinion. I'm not sure how you are allowed to live in a world of concrete facts when most people are forced to live in a world full of people with diverse opinions. It must be nice to be trapped in an episode of the smurfs.

vasuderatorrent
 
1.) Scarecrow??? I think a scarecrow is made of straw.
2.) Good conclusion. I am very young.
3.) This leaves no room for debate, discussion or any efforts at problem solving. That sounds pointless to me.
4.) Humans
5.) I am not aware of any facts.
6.) When the Supreme Court makes a decision one side produces the majority opinion. The other party produces the dissenting opinion.
7.) I'm not sure how you are allowed to live in a world of concrete facts when most people are forced to live in a world full of people with diverse opinions.
8.) It must be nice to be trapped in an episode of the smurfs.

vasuderatorrent

1.) good job but that one fails too
2.) makes sense
3.) correct there is no room for debate on the question i answered, there is only one factually correct answer.Ones rights (ZEF or WOmans) will always be violated, always.
THere can be however debate on where/when/how/why people choose to violate those rights at one time or another.

For instance At not time to I ever dream of violating the womans rights before viability, i just could never do it, afterwords is a different story.
4.) yeah well the majority of humans disagree with you and are actually in reality
5.) your awareness isnt needed for facts to be true
6.) again this has nothing to do with them no matter how many times you try that strawman and it fails
7.) reality allows me, right now its a fact, theres no changing that but you can choose to ignore it or be ignorant of it if you like, it will still be a fact.
8.) I wouldnt know because again in reality and the land of facts, they arent real, but tell gargamel i said hi.

Facts defeat your failed strawman again, keep trying though its fun.

if you disagree by all means please please please list the way its factually possible, id love to read it.
Tell us how you ban abortion or make it unlimited without violating one of their rights.
 
Last edited:
Nobody said there was a simple solution. Well......

vasuderatorrent

I agree including myself, now where in my post did i say simple solution, but please feel free to make up more strawman

basically that just means you dont have one, let me know when you do.
 
simple question
How does one ban abortion (make it murder) and not violate the woman's current freedoms, liberties, legal and human rights, including her right to life?

simple
 
...........no reasonable person said there was a simple solution.

vasuderatorrent
 

see the SECOND word, that says QUESTION

i asked a simple question which it factually is

you said simple SOLUTION which i made no mention of

thanks for qouting me and proving yourself wrong again, this is why i think you are young.

once again facts destroy your post
Let us know when you have a factual solution
 
because its the same as all simple questions

theres only one factual answer, that makes it as simple as it gets, dont you think?

Now I am a super sad boy. :roll:

vasuderatorrent
 
simple question

How does one ban abortion (make it murder) and not violate the woman's current freedoms, liberties, legal and human rights, including her right to life?

now lets be very clear, im not saying one HAS to do so to justify wanting abortion banned and im not asking for reason why you think its ok to violate a womans current freedoms, liberties, legal and human rights, including her right to life?

If you think its ok to do so thats your choice and its fine by me, posters have stated why they value the woman more or the ZEF more in the past.

what im asking is there anybody that thinks they have a way to ban abortion (make it murder or not, doesnt really matter) and not violate the womans current freedoms, liberties, legal rights and human rights (if you believe in them) including her right to life.

I cant come up with a single way myself nor have i read one. Does one exist? if so please share.
She chose the actions that caused her to get pregnant therefore she is responsible for that life inside her until it is birthed and can be given to someone more responsible to take care of it.
 
She chose the actions that caused her to get pregnant therefore she is responsible for that life inside her until it is birthed and can be given to someone more responsible to take care of it.

Sorry Slyhunter, There is no room for debate. It has already been factually proven with rights. (whatever that means)

vasuderatorrent
 
She chose the actions that caused her to get pregnant therefore she is responsible for that life inside her until it is birthed and can be given to someone more responsible to take care of it.

Nope. Abortion is a legal procedure, she can avail herself of it if she so chooses. Handing one's child over to others to raise is NOT a responsible choice, IMO.
 
She chose the actions that caused her to get pregnant therefore she is responsible for that life inside her until it is birthed and can be given to someone more responsible to take care of it.

you are free to have that opinion but its factually wrong

consent to sex is not consent to giving birth, never has been and it never will be

do you have an answer for the question?
 
Back
Top Bottom