How do you really know what Jesus said and taught?[W:355]

[Daisy]

Re: How do you really know what Jesus said and taught?

There is nothing profound about original sin. It tells us nothing about the human condition.

Why did you capitalize the P in Providential and what does it mean?

Not true, sin is inherited just like any other ailment...

 

[Logician Man]

Re: How do you really know what Jesus said and taught?

Myths are powerful narratives that illuminate the human condition. And as a new member, allow me, for your future peace of mind, to point out that I picked up your own word "silly" and applied it to your post -- not to you. I then explained why I thought the post -- not you -- was silly. I'm disagreeing with you. Nothing baiting or ad hominem there.

Fair enuff on the explanation Angel..By the same token,in the future,if/when I criticize or comment on yours or anyone else's religious beliefs....I'm not mocking them,I'm only stating my opinions on them to explain why I find them to be so silly..Have a good day.

 

[Angel]

Re: How do you really know what Jesus said and taught?

There is nothing profound about original sin. It tells us nothing about the human condition.

Why did you capitalize the P in Providential and what does it mean?

Only someone way out of his depth could say that there's nothing profound about original sin.

 

[Angel]

Re: How do you really know what Jesus said and taught?

Fair enuff on the explanation Angel..By the same token,in the future,if/when I criticize or comment on yours or anyone else's religious beliefs....I'm not mocking them,I'm only stating my opinions on them to explain why I find them to be so silly..Have a good day.

Keep it about the posts, and don't make it about the person, and we'll all live happily ever after.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Re: How do you really know what Jesus said and taught?

I have to ask you if what you have heard/read about Alexander the Great would be considered accurate by your standards? .................

If so, many biographies are written many years after the subject has died. Alexander died in 323BC. The 1st biography was written in the 2nd century. So, using your standard of writing after the subject has died, even 400 some years after, not many historical figures would be considered valid in any sense.

Those that were disciples of Jesus that wrote about His life & teachings, like Peter, John, James, & others are considered authentic bc they were in direct contact with Jesus for the 3 main years of His life. In ancient times, most stories were handed down not by writing, but by word of mouth by contemporaries that felt very honored to be trusted with passing this info down. This was a common practice that had centuries of methods to perfect this skill of passing info down, rather than writing it the same time it was occurring.

& your use of the word, "dictated" re the bible's author being God is not correct. Each author put their own flair to what they wrote re audience, geography, & past experience. If not, all the writings would have the same exact personal touch so-to-speak. No, God inspired the authors. The authors wrote with their own style. Just as 5 different artists painting the same exact scene would. One being an expressionist, one abstract, one contemporary, one classical, one academic, etc Same scene, but a completely different look.

That is a flawed argument you are using. No one is arguing that Jesus never existed (well some people do, I don't). My argument is that we treat the Gospels as though they are the literal word of God, as though they are transcripts of what Jesus literally said, and that cannot possibly be the case. They are best 3rd hand accounts decades after the events occurred.

As to your Alexander the Great comparison, we don't treat writings from antiquity about Alexander the Great as literal transcripts of what he said. To do so would be absurd. That is how it differs from the Gospels.

 

[Daisy]

Re: How do you really know what Jesus said and taught?

I think some would be surprised to learn that Alexander the Great's conquests were prophesied in the Bible... just another prophecy told in the Bible that came true...all the more reason to believe the Word of God...

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1960686?q=alexander+the+great&p=par

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1977603?q=alexander+the+great&p=par

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989039?q=alexander+the+great&p=par

 

[RAMOSS]

Re: How do you really know what Jesus said and taught?

I think some would be surprised to learn that Alexander the Great's conquests were prophesied in the Bible... just another prophecy told in the Bible that came true...all the more reason to believe the Word of God...

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1960686?q=alexander+the+great&p=par

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1977603?q=alexander+the+great&p=par

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989039?q=alexander+the+great&p=par

This is what is known as 'shoe horning into place' using 'after the fact writings'. First of all, while the book of Daniel was about Daniel, it actually was written between 165, and 160 bce, which is about 150 years after Alexander the Great died.

From DANIEL, BOOK OF - JewishEncyclopedia.com

The Book of Daniel was written during the persecutions of Israel by the Syrian king Antiochus Epiphanes. This assertion is supported by the following data: The kingdom which is symbolized by the he goat (viii. 5 et seq.) is expressly named as the "kingdom of Yawan"—that is, the Grecian kingdom (viii. 21) the great horn being its first king, Alexander the Great (definitely stated in Seder "Olam R. xxx.), and the little horn Antiochus Epiphanes (175-164). This kingdom was to persecute the host of the saints "unto two thousand and three hundred evenings and mornings" (viii. 14, R. V.); that is, "half-days," or 1,150 days; and Epiphanes did, in fact, profane the sanctuary in Jerusalem for about that length of time, from Kislew 15, 168, to Kislew 25,165 (I Macc. i. 57, iv. 52). The little horn described in Dan. viii. 9-12, 23-25 has the same general characteristics as the little horn in vii. 8, 20; hence the same ruler is designated in both passages. The well-known passage ix. 23-27 also points to the same period. The first and imperative rule in interpreting it is to begin the period of the seventy times seven units (A. V. "seventy weeks") with the first period of seven (ix. 25), and to let the second period, the "sixty-two times seven units," follow this; forif this second period (the sixty-two weeks) be reckoned as beginning again from the very beginning, the third period, the "one week," must be carried back in the same way. The context demands, furthermore, that the origin of the prediction concerning the rebuilding of Jerusalem be sought in Jer. xxv. 11-13 and the parallel passage, ib. xxix. 10. The "anointed," the "prince," mentioned after the first seven times seven units, must be Cyrus, who is called the anointed of the Lord in Isa. xlv. 1 also. He concluded the first seven weeks of years by issuing the decree of liberation, and the time that elapsed between the Chaldean destruction of Jerusalem (586) and the year 538 was just about forty-nine years. The duration of the sixty-two times seven units (434 years) does not correspond with the time 538-171 (367 years); but the chronological knowledge of that age was not very exact. The Seder 'Olam Zuṭa (ed. Meyer, p. 104) computed the Persian rule to have lasted fifty-two years. This is all the more evident as the last period of seven units must include the seven years 171-165 (see "Rev. Et. Juives," xix. 202 et seq.). This week of years began with the murder of an anointed one (compare Lev. iv. 3 et seq. on the anointing of the priest)—namely, the legitimate high priest Onias III.—and it was in the second half of this week of years that the Temple of the Lord was desecrated by an abomination—the silver altar erected by Antiochus Epiphanes in place of the Lord's altar for burnt offering (see I Macc. i. 54).

THe previous passages of that was showing why it could not have been written by earlier than that. That alone will show that the claims from the jw.org website is false.

 

[Daisy]

Re: How do you really know what Jesus said and taught?

Daniel’s Prophecies​—After the Fact?

The Bible indicates that the book of Daniel was written during the sixth century B.C.E. However, the fulfillments of its prophecies are so exact that critics claim it must have been written about 165 B.C.E., when a number of the prophecies had already been fulfilled.​8 Despite the fact that the only real reason for making this claim is that Daniel’s prophecies were fulfilled, this late date for the writing of Daniel is presented as an established fact in many reference works.

27, 28. What are some of the facts that prove that Daniel was not written in 165 B.C.E.?

27 Against such a theory, though, we must weigh the following facts. First, the book was alluded to in Jewish works produced during the second century B.C.E., such as the first book of Maccabees. Also, it was included in the Greek Septuagint version, the translation of which began in the third century B.C.E.​9 Third, fragments of copies of Daniel were among the more frequently found works in the Dead Sea Scrolls​—and these fragments are believed to date to about 100 B.C.E.​10 Clearly, soon after Daniel was supposedly written, it was already widely known and respected: strong evidence that it was produced long before critics say it was.

28 Further, Daniel contains historical details that would have been unknown to a second-century writer. Outstanding is the case of Belshazzar, the ruler of Babylon who was killed when Babylon fell in 539 B.C.E. The major non-Biblical sources of our knowledge of the fall of Babylon are Herodotus (fifth century), Xenophon (fifth and fourth centuries), and Berossus (third century). None of these knew about Belshazzar.​11 How unlikely that a second-century writer would have had information that had been unavailable to these earlier authors! The record concerning Belshazzar in Daniel chapter 5 is a strong argument that Daniel wrote his book before these other writers wrote theirs.*

29. Why is it impossible that the book of Daniel was written after the fulfillment of the prophecies therein?

29 Finally, there are a number of prophecies in Daniel that were fulfilled long after 165 B.C.E. One of these was the prophecy about the Roman Empire, mentioned earlier. Another is a remarkable prophecy foretelling the arrival of Jesus, the Messiah.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989039?q=when+was+the+book+of+daniel+written&p=par

 

[RAMOSS]

Re: How do you really know what Jesus said and taught?

Daniel’s Prophecies​—After the Fact?

The Bible indicates that the book of Daniel was written during the sixth century B.C.E. However, the fulfillments of its prophecies are so exact that critics claim it must have been written about 165 B.C.E., when a number of the prophecies had already been fulfilled.​8 Despite the fact that the only real reason for making this claim is that Daniel’s prophecies were fulfilled, this late date for the writing of Daniel is presented as an established fact in many reference works.

27, 28. What are some of the facts that prove that Daniel was not written in 165 B.C.E.?

27 Against such a theory, though, we must weigh the following facts. First, the book was alluded to in Jewish works produced during the second century B.C.E., such as the first book of Maccabees. Also, it was included in the Greek Septuagint version, the translation of which began in the third century B.C.E.​9 Third, fragments of copies of Daniel were among the more frequently found works in the Dead Sea Scrolls​—and these fragments are believed to date to about 100 B.C.E.​10 Clearly, soon after Daniel was supposedly written, it was already widely known and respected: strong evidence that it was produced long before critics say it was.

28 Further, Daniel contains historical details that would have been unknown to a second-century writer. Outstanding is the case of Belshazzar, the ruler of Babylon who was killed when Babylon fell in 539 B.C.E. The major non-Biblical sources of our knowledge of the fall of Babylon are Herodotus (fifth century), Xenophon (fifth and fourth centuries), and Berossus (third century). None of these knew about Belshazzar.​11 How unlikely that a second-century writer would have had information that had been unavailable to these earlier authors! The record concerning Belshazzar in Daniel chapter 5 is a strong argument that Daniel wrote his book before these other writers wrote theirs.*

29. Why is it impossible that the book of Daniel was written after the fulfillment of the prophecies therein?

29 Finally, there are a number of prophecies in Daniel that were fulfilled long after 165 B.C.E. One of these was the prophecy about the Roman Empire, mentioned earlier. Another is a remarkable prophecy foretelling the arrival of Jesus, the Messiah.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989039?q=when+was+the+book+of+daniel+written&p=par

All those claims were actually countered in the link I gave previously. This shows the great intellectual mistakes or dishonesty of the JW web site.

In fact, the claim that 'Daniel contained historical information not known in the 2nd century' is a lie.

 

[yankintx]

Re: How do you really know what Jesus said and taught?

Actually, there is no physical proof for the existence of the person referred to as Jesus. Merely antidotal stories of what others decided to say happened. Once again, no proof.

I was raised a Catholic, now I am atheist. I do not believe one needs to have faith he was the son of God, or he even existed to appreciate his message. What I can appreciate and take away from my upbringing is Christs message, to be kind to one another, show compassion towards each other, and to forgive.

 

[Daisy]

Re: How do you really know what Jesus said and taught?

Daniel—A Book on Trial

1, 2. In what sense does the book of Daniel stand accused, and why do you think it is important to consider evidence in its defense?

IMAGINE yourself in a court of law, attending an important trial. A man stands accused of fraud. The prosecuting attorney insists that the man is guilty. Yet, the accused has a long-standing reputation for integrity. Would you not be interested in hearing the evidence for the defense?

2 You are in a similar situation when it comes to the Bible book of Daniel. Its writer was a man renowned for integrity. The book that bears his name has been highly regarded for thousands of years. It presents itself as authentic history, written by Daniel, a Hebrew prophet who lived during the seventh and sixth centuries B.C.E. Accurate Biblical chronology shows that his book covers the period extending from about 618 to 536 B.C.E. and was completed by the latter date. But the book stands accused. Some encyclopedias and other reference works imply or assert outright that it is a fraud.

3. What does The New Encyclopædia Britannica say regarding the authenticity of the book of Daniel?

3 For example, The New Encyclopædia Britannica acknowledges that the book of Daniel was once “generally considered to be true history, containing genuine prophecy.” The Britannica claims that in reality, however, Daniel “was written in a later time of national crisis—when the Jews were suffering severe persecution under [Syrian King] Antiochus IV Epiphanes.” The encyclopedia dates the book between 167 and 164 B.C.E. This same work asserts that the writer of the book of Daniel does not prophesy the future but simply presents “events that are past history to him as prophecies of future happenings.”

4. When did criticism of the book of Daniel begin, and what fueled similar criticism in more recent centuries?

4 Where do such ideas originate? Criticism of the book of Daniel is not new. It started back in the third century C.E. with a philosopher named Porphyry. Like many in the Roman Empire, he felt threatened by the influence of Christianity. He wrote 15 books to undermine this “new” religion. The 12th was directed against the book of Daniel. Porphyry pronounced the book a forgery, written by a Jew in the second century B.C.E. Similar attacks came in the 18th and 19th centuries. In the view of higher critics and rationalists, prophecy—the foretelling of future events—is impossible. Daniel became a favorite target. In effect, he and his book were put on trial in court. Critics claimed to have ample proof that the book was written, not by Daniel during the Jewish exile in Babylon, but by someone else centuries later.* Such attacks became so profuse that one author even wrote a defense called Daniel in the Critics’ Den.

5. Why is the question of the authenticity of Daniel an important one?

5 Is there proof behind the confident assertions of the critics? Or does the evidence back the defense? A lot is at stake here. It is not just the reputation of this ancient book but also our future that is involved. If the book of Daniel is a fraud, its promises for mankind’s future are just hollow words at best. But if it contains genuine prophecies, doubtless you will be eager to learn what these mean for us today. With that in mind, let us examine some of the attacks upon Daniel.

6. What charge is sometimes made regarding the history in Daniel?

6 Take, for example, the charge made in The Encyclopedia Americana: “Many historical details of the earlier periods [such as that of the Babylonian exile] have been badly garbled” in Daniel. Is this really so? Let us consider three alleged mistakes, one at a time.

Open link to read more...

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101999021?q=when+was+the+book+of+daniel+written&p=par

 

[Angel]

Re: How do you really know what Jesus said and taught?

I was raised a Catholic, now I am atheist. I do not believe one needs to have faith he was the son of God, or he even existed to appreciate his message. What I can appreciate and take away from my upbringing is Christs message, to be kind to one another, show compassion towards each other, and to forgive.

e kind to one another, show compassion towards each other, and to forgive.

Why?
Without God, why?



Namaste

 

[yankintx]

Re: How do you really know what Jesus said and taught?

Why?
Without God, why?



Namaste

No offense, but God is an invention of man. Now Jesus may have existed, or not, but I believe in the messege that is attrubuted to him. And I try to follow the example to not judge others, also attributed to Christ. I am not a militant atheist, far from it, if religion gives others comfort than that is fantastic. But I see so called Christians judge me due to my to the fact I love someone of the same sex, not very Christian if you ask me, Christ would not judge me, so why should his followers.

 

[Angel]

Re: How do you really know what Jesus said and taught?

No offense, but God is an invention of man. Now Jesus may have existed, or not, but I believe in the messege that is attrubuted to him. And I try to follow the example to not judge others, also attributed to Christ. I am not a militant atheist, far from it, if religion gives others comfort than that is fantastic. But I see so called Christians judge me due to my to the fact I love someone of the same sex, not very Christian if you ask me, Christ would not judge me, so why should his followers.

No offense taken, yankintx. We're just exchanging ideas. What's more, who you love and what you believe about the nature of reality is nobody's business but your own.
But my question stands. If you don't believe in the messenger, why follow the message? This is a purely academic question.


Namaste

 

[Vox]

Re: How do you really know what Jesus said and taught?

The earliest gospel is the Gospel of Mark, written about 35 to 40 years after the death of Jesus. It is traditionally thought to have been written John Mark, a companion of Peter.

So, let's think about this. The earliest of all the gospels was written a full 35 to 40 years after Jesus died. We have no knowledge at all of any direct transcriptions of any of the teachings, sermons, or remarks of Jesus. There were of course no recording devices then. Moreover, life expectancy was such that anyone of adult age at the time of the ministry of Jesus would have almost certainly been dead by then. So at best, the Gospel of Mark would have been a compilation of third hand accounts, stories and myths. Moreover, it was written most likely in Rome, over a 1000 miles from were Jesus lived and died.

I would be like trying to write a book today about the speeches of Gerald Ford, without the benefit of any recordings, transcriptions, or even being able to talk to anyone that would have heard them. At best, you might get something of an idea of what he may have said, given his rumored political positions and views.

I cannot see where the gospels would be any more accurate than that. At best, they may reflect something of the gist of what Jesus may have actually said. Now, you might say "but the gospels were dictated by God to their authors". Well if that is the case, then why do the earliest known manuscripts differ from each other so much? Surely if they were dictated by God, we would not see such differences in them.

Anyway, what does everyone else think?

You should read "The Mythmaker."

https://www.amazon.com/Mythmaker-Paul-Invention-Christianity/dp/0760707871

 

[yankintx]

Re: How do you really know what Jesus said and taught?

No offense taken, yankintx. We're just exchanging ideas. What's more, who you love and what you believe about the nature of reality is nobody's business but your own.
But my question stands. If you don't believe in the messenger, why follow the message? This is a purely academic question.


Namaste

Because the messege was so profound in a very cruel world. The messege ushered in a new way of thinking, that to have compassion and forgiveness are virtues that separate us from all the other beasts. Perhaps these thoughts are left over from Catholism, but one does not need to believe in Christ to believe in caring for your fellow man. Just my two cents.

They say their are no atheist in fox holes. I served in Iraqi, and was under hostile gun fire, I never prayed, nor felt the impulse to, but many did.

 

[Angel]

Re: How do you really know what Jesus said and taught?

Because the messege was so profound in a very cruel world. The messege ushered in a new way of thinking, that to have compassion and forgiveness are virtues that separate us from all the other beasts. Perhaps these thoughts are left over from Catholism, but one does not need to believe in Christ to believe in caring for your fellow man. Just my two cents.

They say their are no atheist in fox holes. I served in Iraqi, and was under hostile gun fire, I never prayed, nor felt the impulse to, but many did.

Fair enough.
Thank you for your service, citizen.

Namaste

 

[gfm7175]

Re: How do you really know what Jesus said and taught?

But I see so called Christians judge me due to my to the fact I love someone of the same sex, not very Christian if you ask me,

What's wrong with judging? We all exercise judgment every single day of our lives... There are "righteous" judgments and "unrighteous" judgments... We are to do the first and not to do the second... Maybe that's what you were getting at, but just to clarify that not all judging is bad...

 

[gfm7175]

Re: How do you really know what Jesus said and taught?

one does not need to believe in Christ to believe in caring for your fellow man. Just my two cents.

And worth every bit of the two cents it is!! That's absolutely true.

I happen to think that believing in Christ makes it much clearer as to why we do so, but belief in Christ isn't necessary in order to do so.

 

[devildavid]

Re: How do you really know what Jesus said and taught?

Why?
Without God, why?



Namaste

Why not?

 

[Angel]

Re: How do you really know what Jesus said and taught?

Why not?

What me worry?

 

[Logicman]

Re: How do you really know what Jesus said and taught?

No offense, but God is an invention of man. Now Jesus may have existed, or not, but I believe in the messege that is attrubuted to him. And I try to follow the example to not judge others, also attributed to Christ. I am not a militant atheist, far from it, if religion gives others comfort than that is fantastic. But I see so called Christians judge me due to my to the fact I love someone of the same sex, not very Christian if you ask me, Christ would not judge me, so why should his followers.

Besides gay sex being a sin that is condemned in numerous scriptures as sinful, and may well keep participants out of heaven (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Revelation 21:8, etc.), making correct judgments is within the realm of Jesus' teachings.

“Judge not, and you will not be judged.” (Matthew 7:1)

Jesus is not saying that we cannot make judgments about people’s actions, he is saying that we should not be hypocrites if we do. In Matthew 7:5 he says, “You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck that is in your brothers eye.”

God acknowledges the legitimacy of civil authorities to judge:

Romans 13:1-4: “Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For he (the reigning authority) is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of God’s wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.” (Also note Matthew 5:25; Acts 25:10-11)

God has commanded the church to make correct judgments:

John 7:24: “Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment.”

Matthew 18:15-17: “If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses (note Deuteronomy 19:15). If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.”

I Corinthians 6:4: “Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church.”

God commands us to judge according to one’s ‘fruits’:

Matthew 7:17-20: “Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit…..every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.”

The Saints of Christ will judge the world, and angels:

I Corinthians 6:2: “Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?”
I Corinthians 6:3: “Do you not know that we will judge angels?”

God uses people to warn others to turn from their sin:

“When I say to the wicked, ‘You wicked person, you will surely die,’ and you do not speak out to dissuade them from their ways, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. But if you do warn the wicked person to turn from their ways and they do not do so, they will die for their sin, though you yourself will be saved.” – Ezekiel 33 https://righterreport.com/2007/08/19/the-bible-is-it-wrong-to-judge/

 

[Angel]

Re: How do you really know what Jesus said and taught?

FYI

Required viewing for the culturally-challenged.

Namaste

Since I don't believe anything you say is true, why would I believe your alleged references? Are you really that dumb?

Asks the fellow who never heard of Pasolini.


Namaste

 

[AGENT J]

Re: How do you really know what Jesus said and taught?

Angel is hilarious he gets so defensive and mad when proved wrong he is currently melting down in the morals thread where they were proved to be subjective!!!

Its always funny when insecure, pseudo-intellectuals get owned again again by many posters and it causes them to melt down and start attacking opcorn2:

 

[Daisy]

Re: How do you really know what Jesus said and taught?

Somebody's havin' a meltdown all right and it ain't Angel...lol...