How come people in biblical times could talk to god, but people in modern times can't

[gekaap]

Re: How come people in biblical times could talk to god, but people in modern times c

There is no evidence other than the biblical claim. The Egyptians kept incredibly detailed records which make no mention whatever of a race of slaves, or of the plagues of Moses, or the sudden exodus of half the population (and most of the workforce). There is no archaeological evidence of large numbers of Hebrews ever living in Egypt nor of their 40 year journey.

Indeed, there is a plethora of archeological evidence that points to the origins of the Kingdom of Israel to have been indigenous peoples, and that the origins of the Israelite people to have been in Canaan, not Egypt.

 

[CriticalThought]

Re: How come people in biblical times could talk to god, but people in modern times c

I would say that people have always been really good at talking to themselves and then fooling themselves into believing they are talking to God. However, I think enough people are fearful of being called mentally ill that they have desisted this practice or practice it in private.

 

[AndrewC23]

Re: How come people in biblical times could talk to god, but people in modern times c

Well seeing as though I was baptized catholic I have attempted to talk to god before and so do people in my family but I think I can speak for myself and for everyone else I know who prays that if they heard god talking back to them that they would freak the **** out lol...

 

[cpwill]

Re: How come people in biblical times could talk to god, but people in modern times c

See, this is what drives me crazy. People make out right lies like this, and we're supposed to believe it

:lol: and I am lying? and your evidence of this?

God does not talk to you.

in fact He does; though sometimes admittedly not because I want Him to.

You say that he does because you want people to see you as special

not really. i usually actually avoid the religious forum for this very reason.

or because you desperately want to have some kind of "proof positive,"

nope, i don't need proof positive. it effects me not at all whether or not you believe me or don't.

or because you think that by positing your religion on such supposedly iron clad terms puts you into some kind of special echelon of righteousness off of your "devotion" to following God.

:lol: if there is one thing that i will never claim in a religious discussion, it's that I have the right to claim any kind of natural righteousness of my own.


i find alot more sense of emotional and powerful "need" in your (and others) apparent "need" to convince themselves demand loudly and insist upon the notion that I am wrong. If you say you pray and never recieve anything back.... :shrug: i believe you. But I tell you I pray and do and folks go beserk.

Aside from the fact that I know that your God does not exist

:lamo: now this is fascinating. you claim to be able to know something that nobody could possibly know. you are, in effect, claiming Omniscence, which is, of course, an attribute of God. So, in a way, you are insisting that you are God, and that you do not exist.

Why? Because the Christian way of following God is all about faith.

yup. which doesn't at all mean that we don't recieve guidance, direction, and support. faith comes from our free will. Even the demons (as the man pointed out) know God exists - there is a pretty big split between merely knowing God exists and choosing to turn your life over to him.

 

[cpwill]

Re: How come people in biblical times could talk to god, but people in modern times c

Indeed, there is a plethora of archeological evidence that points to the origins of the Kingdom of Israel to have been indigenous peoples, and that the origins of the Israelite people to have been in Canaan, not Egypt.

actually the earliest reference to the nation of Israel is on a monolith in Egypt.

 

[cpwill]

Re: How come people in biblical times could talk to god, but people in modern times c

Could you describe the experience, and explain how you determined it was caused by God?

:shrug: well it's sort of been an ongoing thing, and it's varied fairly widely in level, specificity, so on and so forth. I've recieved direct guidance ("go to location Y and talk to person X about subject Z"), at points in time I've recieved silence, and generally everything in between.

 

[cpwill]

Re: How come people in biblical times could talk to god, but people in modern times c

Too bad no one can ever independently confirm and verify these "healings". You are either:
1) a liar
2) being deceived
3) genuinely mistaken

or 4) accurate. certainly you have no evidence that it is any of the top 3.

 

[cpwill]

Re: How come people in biblical times could talk to god, but people in modern times c

And how do you know that? How do you know it wasn't a delusion? How do you know it wasn't the "devil" of another pantheon trying to mislead you from the "one true god"? You may definitely BELIEVE he spoke to you, you have no way of determining that objectively.

that is correct. I am limited to my ability to percieve. of course, that same level of proof demanded means that i cannot objectively know anything. So let us say that I am at least as certain that God exists and I have interacted with Him as I am that my brother exists and I have interacted with him.

 

[cpwill]

Re: How come people in biblical times could talk to god, but people in modern times c

Nope, I am pointing out that the idea of God communicating with people through the Holy Spirit is supported in scripture, which is something you questioned (I believe you called it a liberal interpretation (so in response I brought up a far more direct quote that would be harder for you to try and wiggle out of))

As to whether God exists or not, I have had my own experiences to confirm that to me, so I am satisfied with my view, whether you agree or not is irrelevant to that.

they demand to know why we believe, and then they don't believe us when we tell them.

 

[gekaap]

Re: How come people in biblical times could talk to god, but people in modern times c

actually the earliest reference to the nation of Israel is on a monolith in Egypt.

Which says nothing to suggest that the Israelites themselves originated in Egypt.

 

[Cephus]

Re: How come people in biblical times could talk to god, but people in modern times c

While there are certainly historical events in the Bible, you go on to mention two which certainly were not historical. The exodus and Jesus have no independent evidence to support their factual occurrence. Certainly there were wars, much of the latter half of the OT was Jewish history, but all of the supernatural nonsense was just that... nonsense.

While I would agree that there is no evidence of Jesus Christ's existence I would disagree that there is no evidence of the exodus, because Egypt definitely enslaved the Jews and they definitely made it back to Israel somehow...and there is evidence to support this.

Actually, the external evidence for the Jews in Egypt has nothing to do with slavery. The Egyptians, who kept excellent records, never mentioned Jews enslaved in Egypt. According to the Biblical accounts, at the numbers claimed, the Jews would have made up 2/3 of the total population of Egypt, yet nobody make any mention of them. Nor is there evidence of the numbers of Jews wandering through the desert. You'd think someone might have dropped something or taken a crap, but apparently, nobody did in the numbers claimed.

Something tells me you need to re-examine your supposed evidence. It's just not there.

 

[Cephus]

Re: How come people in biblical times could talk to god, but people in modern times c

that is correct. I am limited to my ability to percieve. of course, that same level of proof demanded means that i cannot objectively know anything. So let us say that I am at least as certain that God exists and I have interacted with Him as I am that my brother exists and I have interacted with him.

Then provide us with the same level of evidence for this God character as you can for your brother. We'll wait.

 

[cpwill]

Re: How come people in biblical times could talk to god, but people in modern times c

Which says nothing to suggest that the Israelites themselves originated in Egypt.

that is correct. all it really tells us is that Egypt had been in conflict with the Israeli nation just before the turn of the 11th Century BC.


but it also tells us that the claim that there is no evidence is inaccurate.

 

[cpwill]

Re: How come people in biblical times could talk to god, but people in modern times c

Then provide us with the same level of evidence for this God character as you can for your brother. We'll wait.

:shrug: i interact with both. others also interact with both, and independently confirm my experience.

 

[cpwill]

Re: How come people in biblical times could talk to god, but people in modern times c

I would say that people have always been really good at talking to themselves and then fooling themselves into believing they are talking to God. However, I think enough people are fearful of being called mentally ill that they have desisted this practice or practice it in private.

:lol: yes. as you can see from this thread - clearly our strategy is to avoid being accused of being insane

 

[AndrewC23]

Re: How come people in biblical times could talk to god, but people in modern times c

Actually, the external evidence for the Jews in Egypt has nothing to do with slavery. The Egyptians, who kept excellent records, never mentioned Jews enslaved in Egypt. According to the Biblical accounts, at the numbers claimed, the Jews would have made up 2/3 of the total population of Egypt, yet nobody make any mention of them. Nor is there evidence of the numbers of Jews wandering through the desert. You'd think someone might have dropped something or taken a crap, but apparently, nobody did in the numbers claimed.

Something tells me you need to re-examine your supposed evidence. It's just not there.

Well like I said a lot of things in the bible are untrue, and the numbers could have been exaggerated, I don't see how it could have made up 2/3 of the population of Egypt when Egypt was the most powerful empire in the world at the time I'm sure that there were just as many if not more Egyptians than there were Jewish slaves. Not to mention that the area from Egypt to Israel is a VERY large area, and maybe no evidence in that area has ever been found. I understand making up the story of god, but I don't understand why someone would make up a story about their race being enslaved I wouldn't really consider being enslaved something to just make up it would be something that you would want to forget let alone make up.

 

[cpwill]

Re: How come people in biblical times could talk to god, but people in modern times c

The Egyptians also kept records..... of their successes. Their failures, not as much.

 

[AndrewC23]

Re: How come people in biblical times could talk to god, but people in modern times c

Yeah and they did keep records of a massive famine that happened around the same time of the ten plagues...which would have been one of the results of the ten plagues.

 

[gekaap]

Re: How come people in biblical times could talk to god, but people in modern times c

that is correct. all it really tells us is that Egypt had been in conflict with the Israeli nation just before the turn of the 11th Century BC.


but it also tells us that the claim that there is no evidence is inaccurate.

What an amazing self contradiction.

 

[gekaap]

Re: How come people in biblical times could talk to god, but people in modern times c

:shrug: i interact with both. others also interact with both, and independently confirm my experience.

People of all different religions would claim to interact with their god, and would be able to posit that others independently confirm those experiences. Thus, the existence of those gods must be accepted as true, if what you are claiming were meaningful evidence to support your own conclusion. But that then creates logical conflicts. If your god exists, then the Zoroastrian god cannot exist, and vice versa. Thus, your entire argument is completely devoid of any merit.

 

[Anarcho-fascist]

Re: How come people in biblical times could talk to god, but people in modern times c

:shrug: well it's sort of been an ongoing thing, and it's varied fairly widely in level, specificity, so on and so forth. I've recieved direct guidance ("go to location Y and talk to person X about subject Z"), at points in time I've recieved silence, and generally everything in between.

In what manner did you receive this guidance, and what method did you determine it's origin?

 

[gekaap]

Re: How come people in biblical times could talk to god, but people in modern times c

I understand making up the story of god, but I don't understand why someone would make up a story about their race being enslaved I wouldn't really consider being enslaved something to just make up it would be something that you would want to forget let alone make up.

Clearly, you just don't understand many of the basic concepts of Jewish faith and belief. The story of the Exodus is a testament to the Jews being the chosen people of God, as well as affirming other basic concepts about faith; concepts which are found in any faiths, mind you. God promised the Israelites the land of Canaan. He makes no such promise to any other people anywhere in the scriptures. The story of the suffering of the Israelites and their eventual deliverance by God explains the importance to have faith in God. If you look through the Jewish scriptures, there are many times when God references the Exodus. God often reminds his people that just as he delivered them from Egypt they must remain faithful even in times of despair and trust that he has heard their prayers.

The story of the Exodus helped to give the Jewish people a sense of identity. In fact, it was so successful toward that end, that even when their kingdom collapsed, the Jewish people maintained that sense of identity through a 2000 year diaspora that spread them across the world. It gave them strength of faith to remain devoted to their god, their ways, resisting pressures to assimilate into other cultures. They never wavered from their faith that God would one day deliver them back into the promised land. And 2000 years later, their hopes and dreams were realized. Not that I claim God to have anything to do with it. But my point is that, as a thing of cultural importance, the story of enslavement and deliverance has proven to be the single most important aspect of Jewish culture. Without it, the Jewish people would have been lost to history a long time ago.

 

[scourge99]

Re: How come people in biblical times could talk to god, but people in modern times c

or 4) accurate. certainly you have no evidence that it is any of the top 3.

Actually I do. The thousands of proposed gods and purported prophets that came before you that proclaimed similar tales of the supernatural. Many of which have been shown as fraudulent, mistaken, or liars over time. NONE have shown they speak truth. I dismiss your claims as I do theirs.

When you can show you speak truth and not merely claim that you speak truth then your claims will be taken seriously. Until then you are just another statistic in the same sad game that has played out for centuries.

 

[cpwill]

Re: How come people in biblical times could talk to god, but people in modern times c

Actually I do. The thousands of proposed gods and purported prophets that came before you that proclaimed similar tales of the supernatural. Many of which have been shown as fraudulent, mistaken, or liars over time.

and the accounts that argue the opposite, you of course, discount. must be nice to have a good, tight, non-falsifiable argument.

NONE have shown they speak truth

and so you are able to show absence of evidence, which is not evidence of absence. and those who claim to have interacted with the evidence are of course deluded or lying because you have already decided that there is no evidence.

well, that is your call. but given the presence of asymetric information here, I think I'm going to go with what evidence I do have rather than with what evidence you don't.

 

[cpwill]

Re: How come people in biblical times could talk to god, but people in modern times c

People of all different religions would claim to interact with their god, and would be able to posit that others independently confirm those experiences.

yup. in fact it is the near universal experience of all human societies that there is definitely a divine, and that that divine definitely interacts with us.

Thus, the existence of those gods must be accepted as true

not really. all it means is that there is a divine; the fact that multiple different observers have come up with multiple different attempts to narrate and explain their interactions with it doesn't prove that there are multiple gods any more than the fact that my son sees' me and interacts with me differently than my father or my wife means I am actually three seperate people.

so the overarching question between the faiths is not a binary one of who is right and who is wrong; it is a qualitative one of who is more accurate.