How can the right even suggest that they are Christian[W:487]

[Cable]

I have a fine knowledge of Christian theology...not the tops in the country by any means, but well above average.
I don't talk "big"...I talk inconvenient truth, Tosca...and that seems to bother you.

You mischaracterize Christ to fit your own view Frank. Is that not most convenient for you?
Whether the lay Christian has a good grasp of the law and how it applies does not affect God. His grasp of the law is firm, which you seem to hate.
You would rather be the God of your own life, as is pretty much true of all humanity. It is why we sin. It is the realization that this is not truth that leads one to Christ. A hard journey indeed.
It's far easier to think Christ just a good man, much like yourself. Much more comfortable.

 

[Frank Apisa]

On the first point, you do believe something. You want to call it a guess, ok. But it's a distinction without a difference.

I do not do any "believing"...despite your guess that I do. If you want to call your guesses "beliefs"...fine. But don't tell me I have to consider my guesses to be beliefs...because I consider my guesses to be guesses. I think there is value in being truthful on that score.

Based on the evidences you have in front of you, you make a determination to the best of your ability about what is true.
I came at Christianity from an atheistic perspective originally. I once thought, like you to some extent, that Jesus was a pretty good dude that was just mischaracterized by the folks who listened to him. But the more I understood him, the more I realized that his "Son of God" status was intrinsic to his message. It could not be divorced from his teachings and leave them with any meaning.

Guessing there is a god and calling yourself a theist is fine...if you want to do it. Guessing that there are no gods and calling yourself an atheist is fine...if you want to do it. I prefer the truth. I do not know if there is a god or not...and the evidence is too ambiguous to make a meaningful guess...so I call myself an agnostic.

You ought to consider it.

When it comes to Christ, "I do not believe X exists" and "I believe X does not exist." is again a distinction without a difference.

There is a HUGE distinction. You would do well to try to understand it.

If you want to see the nearest hypocrite just glance in the mirror. Sin is hypocrisy. We all sin.

If you want to think "we all sin"...fine with me.

If you want to think "sin is hypocrisy" therefore, I am a hypocrite...fine with me.

I think you are wrong.

It's interesting that you think God a monster.

If there is a GOD...I doubt the god is a monster. I was talking about that monster described in the Bible. That god is a monster. Keep those two thoughts separate.

Men are monsters.

Some are...some are not.

Every evil done on this earth is done by men.

Actually, some is done by women.

Why are you surprised when God is displeased?

I do not even know if there is a god...so your question makes no sense.

We are so proud when we know better than God.

Whatever.

 

[Frank Apisa]

You talk big, yes you do. EMPTY, though. You make claims that you can't support at all.
I've yet to see you actually address the repeated challenge being thrown at you here, to support your claims. That's simple enough, eh?
You make a claim - you're asked to support it. Quite sensible request.


Where's the beef, Frank?

I have supported every claim I have made, Tosca.

 

[Frank Apisa]

You mischaracterize Christ to fit your own view Frank. Is that not most convenient for you?
Whether the lay Christian has a good grasp of the law and how it applies does not affect God. His grasp of the law is firm, which you seem to hate.
You would rather be the God of your own life, as is pretty much true of all humanity. It is why we sin. It is the realization that this is not truth that leads one to Christ. A hard journey indeed.
It's far easier to think Christ just a good man, much like yourself. Much more comfortable.

Not sure what the hell you are saying here, Cable...but it makes no sense.

Let's try to stick to the topic...rather than my thoughts about gods.

 

[Cable]

Not sure what the hell you are saying here, Cable...but it makes no sense.

I know Frank.

 

[Cable]

And your point is???
There is a reason, Owl...why modern Christianity tries so hard to get as far away from the god of the Old Testament as possible.

Christ came from the God of the old testament. Jesus is God's mercy on us.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Christ came from the God of the old testament. Jesus is God's mercy on us.

That is an interesting guess, Cable.

But the reason modern Christians try to distance themselves so much from the god of the Old Testament, is because they do not want to deal with the kind of god that god was.

But we are straying from the topic of this thread.

Considering what we DO manage to agree on...we agree that Jesus cared for his fellow human and asked the we care for the poor. The American conservative agenda is aimed primarily at protecting the very wealthiest among us and at protecting the economic system that helps the wealthiest become the wealthiest...even if it impacts negatively on the poor or not so wealthy.

That is something, it seems to me, that Jesus (god or human) would have found to be an abomination.

So...the question of the thread: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian?...is best answered with:

By being hypocrites to the core.

 

[Cable]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

How can the right even suggest that they are Christian?
Many are Christian. Lots and lots of them are Christians.
The real question is: How can any Christian even suggest he/she is an American conservative?
Any Christian with any sense of decency...with any knowledge of what Jesus was trying to teach...
...would not touch American conservatism with a ten foot pole.

Your first post to this thread Frank.
You, n man who doesn't even take Christ at his word, are telling others how they ought to behave as Christians. Really?

 

[Cable]

That is an interesting guess, Cable.
But the reason modern Christians try to distance themselves so much from the god of the Old Testament, is because they do not want to deal with the kind of god that god was.
But we are straying from the topic of this thread.
Considering what we DO manage to agree on...we agree that Jesus cared for his fellow human and asked the we care for the poor. The American conservative agenda is aimed primarily at protecting the very wealthiest among us and at protecting the economic system that helps the wealthiest become the wealthiest...even if it impacts negatively on the poor or not so wealthy.
That is something, it seems to me, that Jesus (god or human) would have found to be an abomination.
So...the question of the thread: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian?...is best answered with:
By being hypocrites to the core.

I can't disagree with you in total. I think American anything is putting country before God. We just happen to live in a country that has historically been submitted to the Lord. That is changing very much these days.
It is changing with Conservatives, who think God needs America to survive for his work to get done. I'm not discounting all of the work that Americans do for God, for that is a great work,
But to think for one second that Conservatives have a monopoly on hypocrisy, while Liberals are all doing God's work is disingenuous at very best. In truth, it is laughable.

Christ did cut through all of this. He said the greatest commandment is: Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' (yes, the one you call monster).
Good can flow from this frame of mind. Without it, we are at the whim of the will of man, completely.

 

[tosca1]

I have supported every claim I have made, Tosca.

Like what?

 

[tosca1]

Let's try to stick to the topic...rather than my thoughts about gods.

:roll:

The author of the OP (and you), are the ones who brought up the Christian God, Frank.
Of course, your thoughts about Him - and what you understand about the Scriptures - will be on the table.

That's become the topic!

 

[calamity]

Christ came from the God of the old testament. Jesus is God's mercy on us.

And, Donald Trump is his revenge. :lol:

 

[Logicman]

I have supported every claim I have made, Tosca.

No you haven't. You never answered this one (see my post #1042):

Frank Apisa: "...they invented a monstrous god"

Where's your evidence this god was invented?

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Your first post to this thread Frank.
You, n man who doesn't even take Christ at his word, are telling others how they ought to behave as Christians. Really?

Yeah...you see something wrong with that?

I consider the teachings of Jesus to be exceptional. And I think anyone asserting a love for those teachings is a hypocrite.

And I do not necessarily think every teaching of his is spot on.

 

[Frank Apisa]

I can't disagree with you in total. I think American anything is putting country before God. We just happen to live in a country that has historically been submitted to the Lord. That is changing very much these days.
It is changing with Conservatives, who think God needs America to survive for his work to get done. I'm not discounting all of the work that Americans do for God, for that is a great work,
But to think for one second that Conservatives have a monopoly on hypocrisy, while Liberals are all doing God's work is disingenuous at very best. In truth, it is laughable.

Christ did cut through all of this. He said the greatest commandment is: Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' (yes, the one you call monster).
Good can flow from this frame of mind. Without it, we are at the whim of the will of man, completely.

You are asking everyone in our country to subscribe to YOUR blind guess about the existence of a god...and YOUR blind guess about the nature of that god.

If you cannot see the problem with that intuitively...it will be almost impossible to explain it to you.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Like what?

Like everything I have claimed.

Quote something I have claimed with a link to where I said it (do not paraphrase it)...and I will support it once again.

 

[Frank Apisa]

:roll:

The author of the OP (and you), are the ones who brought up the Christian God, Frank.
Of course, your thoughts about Him - and what you understand about the Scriptures - will be on the table.

That's become the topic!

You have been making me...and your considerations about me...to be the topic.

Stay off that.

 

[Frank Apisa]

No you haven't. You never answered this one (see my post #1042):



Where's your evidence this god was invented?

On at least a dozen occasions I have indicated that I was making guesses about the Bible...and what I considered to be the best guess.

I have indicated that my best guess about the Bible is that it is a self-serving history (of sorts) of the early Hebrew people...with a not particularly original creation mythology.

That is my guess.

If I do not include the words "it is my guess..." or "it is my opinion..." it has to do with just not needing to do it. YOU UNDERSTAND what is being said.

I am an agnostic...I do not KNOW if a god even exists...and I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to make a meaningful guess.

In the matter of that monster described in the Bible...I think enough evidence exists to sustain my guess or opinion.

So...name anything that I have asserted that I have not supported.

 

[Cable]

You are asking everyone in our country to subscribe to YOUR blind guess about the existence of a god...and YOUR blind guess about the nature of that god.
If you cannot see the problem with that intuitively...it will be almost impossible to explain it to you.

Your hyperbole isn't helping you here Frank. Blind? There is plenty of documentation on Christ. There is far less for other historical figures that are readily accepted by the secularist.
Of course you don't think every teaching of Christ's is spot on. How could you possibly?
The liberal in general, and the secularist in particular all pick and choose what they love about Christ, and of course blame God for what they feel is unfair.
If God were just without mercy we'd all be dead, and deservedly so.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Your hyperbole isn't helping you here Frank. Blind? There is plenty of documentation on Christ.

No there isn't.

But my blind guess is that Jesus DID exist...and that his teachings (for the most part) are valuable.

And because of that, I would not think of identifying as an American conservative, because I consider the American conservative agenda to be antithetical to those teachings that I find valuable.

There is far less for other historical figures that are readily accepted by the secularist.

I doubt that...but whatever, because I guess that Jesus did exist.

Of course you don't think every teaching of Christ's is spot on. How could you possibly?

I can't...which is why I said I couldn't. What is your problem with me telling the truth?

The liberal in general, and the secularist in particular all pick and choose what they love about Christ, and of course blame God for what they feel is unfair.

If you think that...fine. I do not even know if there is a god...so I do not blame any gods for what I feel is unfair.

If God were just without mercy we'd all be dead, and deservedly so.

If you think that...fine.

 

[Cable]

No there isn't.
But my blind guess is that Jesus DID exist...and that his teachings (for the most part) are valuable.
And because of that, I would not think of identifying as an American conservative, because I consider the American conservative agenda to be antithetical to those teachings that I find valuable.
I doubt that...but whatever, because I guess that Jesus did exist.
I can't...which is why I said I couldn't. What is your problem with me telling the truth?
If you think that...fine. I do not even know if there is a god...so I do not blame any gods for what I feel is unfair.
If you think that...fine.

Your guess isn't blind if you've learned about Christ through the bible. You know, that historical document from the Jews? It is based on some evidences that are enough to hang your belief in Jesus on, whatever that might amount to.

The odd thing in all this is that you are basically siding with the Jews of the day who put Christ to death. Not because he was bad, they liked many of the things he said.
They hung him on a cross for claiming equality with God. It would be my guess that you would too, if you thought he were that 'monster.'
My question to you was rhetorical. I appreciate you telling the truth.

 

[tosca1]

Like everything I have claimed.

Quote something I have claimed with a link to where I said it (do not paraphrase it)...and I will support it once again.

:lol:

That's what you keep saying. What have you've supported? NONE!

You just keep running around.....:mrgreen:

 

[tosca1]

You have been making me...and your considerations about me...to be the topic.

Stay off that.

Of course you'd be the topic. You've made big claims! Big, RIDICULOUS claims!

Frank

Like everything I have claimed.

I'm still waiting for you to give something reasonable to support your claims! All you've been giving are your blind guesses about the Scriptures!
We're up to our eyeballs with all your blind guesses, Frank! Nothing to support them at all!


Like your interpretations that wealthy men will not go to heaven - you can't come up with anything reasonable!
In the end you even claimed Abraham was "set up" by God! :lol:


I suppose you enjoy baiting us? Is that it?

 

[Logicman]

On at least a dozen occasions I have indicated that I was making guesses about the Bible...and what I considered to be the best guess.

I have indicated that my best guess about the Bible is that it is a self-serving history (of sorts) of the early Hebrew people...with a not particularly original creation mythology.

That is my guess.

If I do not include the words "it is my guess..." or "it is my opinion..." it has to do with just not needing to do it. YOU UNDERSTAND what is being said.

I am an agnostic...I do not KNOW if a god even exists...and I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to make a meaningful guess.

In the matter of that monster described in the Bible...I think enough evidence exists to sustain my guess or opinion.

So...name anything that I have asserted that I have not supported.

So anytime you make a claim about the Bible, we should interpret it as a guess?

 

[Frank Apisa]

Your guess isn't blind if you've learned about Christ through the bible. You know, that historical document from the Jews? It is based on some evidences that are enough to hang your belief in Jesus on, whatever that might amount to.

My guesses about the Bible and about Jesus ARE blind...and so are yours.

The odd thing in all this is that you are basically siding with the Jews of the day who put Christ to death. Not because he was bad, they liked many of the things he said.

According to the Bible, the Jews did not put Jesus to death. The Romans did.

They hung him on a cross for claiming equality with God. It would be my guess that you would too, if you thought he were that 'monster.'

According to the Bible the Jews did not kill Jesus...the Romans did. The Romans killed him for sedition, or trouble making, or because they liked killing Jews. I have no guess on which it was.

My question to you was rhetorical. I appreciate you telling the truth.

Thank you.