How can the right even suggest that they are Christian[W:487]

[AlbqOwl]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

You say you don't want to give rich kids an advantage, and then you say rich kids should be advantaged.

No, sorry, they can already hire better tutors, better books, calculators, field trips, private schools- why do you think it's okay to underfund poor students educations ? Who else can help this happen but the central government ? Who benefits from an educated populace ?

Post the post where I said I wanted to give rich kids an advantage over any other kids. I believe all children should have the advantage of liberty to educate themselves and the wise community provides them the resources to do that. I believe that kids lucky enough to have loving parents who work hard to give them every opportunity should not be punished for that but rather we should be encouraging traditional homes with a self reliant mom and dad so that all kids have a better shot to reach their goals. We as a society should be encouraging a sense of responsibility in people and motivate them to take charge of their own lives and achieve their true potential. And there is nowhere in the Constitution or in the Bible or in any Christian or conservative teaching that says the central government is responsible for that.

 

[mak2]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Post the post where I said I wanted to give rich kids an advantage over any other kids. I believe all children should have the advantage of liberty to educate themselves and the wise community provides them the resources to do that. I believe that kids lucky enough to have loving parents who work hard to give them every opportunity should not be punished for that but rather we should be encouraging traditional homes with a self reliant mom and dad so that all kids have a better shot to reach their goals. We as a society should be encouraging a sense of responsibility in people and motivate them to take charge of their own lives and achieve their true potential. And there is nowhere in the Constitution or in the Bible or in any Christian or conservative teaching that says the central government is responsible for that.

Of course conservatives dont say that, they just design a system that does it. Then pretend everyone has the same chance, which of couse they dont.

 

[bubbabgone]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Sorry, I don't have the motivation to find the post to which I replied so let's simply let it make no sense to you.

Sounds good.

 

[cpwill]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

No, actually, it illuminates the same fallacy i'm calling you out for- being unable to distinguish between mandatory and discretionary spending.

[emoji38] The link is literally FactCheck stating that his claim is false. The piece points out that to distinguish the two when describing the budget, or what the US spends money on, in order to try to make social spending seem smaller than it is or military spending seem bigger is deceptive and incorrect.

Incidentally: no, you do not have a right to a single dime from SS et. al. I agree that the common term "entitlements" is imprecise.

 

[humbolt]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Well that's just stupid. Kick the poor to the curb, let them starve to death, just because someone can't be bothered to define poverty.

I'm not the one defining poverty here. You are. I've seen real poverty. I don't think you know what poverty is.

The idea isn't to dispose of risk. It's to enable poor people to rise out of poverty by developing their skills. Right now, people don't want to invest in them. Dividend stocks are a safer bet.

I believe in Americans more than i believe in selfishly making money for myself at the expense of society.

Do you realize that's the same crap that was pushed originally with the war on poverty. Some climbed out of poverty, but not many, because that wasn't it's intention. The intention was to keep the blacks out of the streets and satisfied with a minimal government stipend. I know because I lived through it, listened to all the political talk, and watched what happened. You didn't, you don't view it through glasses that aren't fogged with political rhetoric, and if you did and you could, you'd deny it because it doesn't conform to your political view. Do you really think I haven't encountered your view many times in the past? You're dreaming. If the objective was as you claim, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The war was a failure in significantly reducing poverty here, but it was a complete success in suppressing the poor politically and buying votes. It's really that simple.

Now, either address the entitlements as a percentage of GDP chart furnished by the government I referred you to, or can your bloviation and give it to someone who cares.

 

[fmw]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Economically, small governments are basically never found in developed countries.

Nor do I think we should have one. We should have a smaller one.

 

[fmw]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

It is not equitable. When your eligibility for Harvard rests more on the wealth of your parents than your academic merits,

I didn't suggest life should be free of inequality. What I said was that government should treat people equally. Harvard is a private institution and can admit or reject anyone they wish.

As a matter of fact, the founding fathers were very wary of the consolidation of power into kings and queens, yet modern American conservatives pervert their ideology to push us toward that direction.

They even offered Washington the title of king. I know of no conservatives that support monarchy for the U.S. You made that up.

 

[fmw]

Production is the ONLY way to generate wealth.

Perhaps we need to define production. Wealth comes from business profits. Not all business profits come from production unless you define production as whatever any business does.

If investment creates wealth, it is because that wealth was enabled via production.

Not necessarily. The investor might gain wealth from capital appreciation. No production involved at all.

When a company spends billions of dollars on stock buybacks, it is spending it's own production for handouts to the rich. This is what HP did when they spent more on buybacks than they made in profit.

Obviously you misunderstand stock buybacks. Corporate managers buy back the company's stock because they think it is undervalued and, therefore, a good investment. Stock bought back by the company is the property of the company, not the management. In the case of public corporations, the "rich" have nothing to do with it because they don't own it directly. They may own it indirectly if they hold stock in the company. The stock is simply an asset on the books. Perhaps HP's lenders agreed that the stock was undervalued (and it was) so they loaned the company money to buy stock. I don't know the details. I do know that you don't understand how business works.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Of course. that isn't the point. You criticize people for their opinions and call them names (hypocrites). That is the problem.

My opinion is that anyone who identifies as a Christian...who also identifies as an American conservative...IS a HYPOCRITE.

How do you say that without saying it?

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

I can't understand your point. To "denigrate" means to criticize, to be derogatory, to disparage. This is precisely what you're doing when you call American conservatism "disgusting."

I am sharing my opinion.

If you...or any of the others...think I should not share my opinion because they do not like the sound of my opinion...

...I would suggest putting me on IGNORE...because I am going to have my say.

 

[Absentglare]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Post the post where I said I wanted to give rich kids an advantage over any other kids. I believe all children should have the advantage of liberty to educate themselves and the wise community provides them the resources to do that. I believe that kids lucky enough to have loving parents who work hard to give them every opportunity should not be punished for that but rather we should be encouraging traditional homes with a self reliant mom and dad so that all kids have a better shot to reach their goals. We as a society should be encouraging a sense of responsibility in people and motivate them to take charge of their own lives and achieve their true potential. And there is nowhere in the Constitution or in the Bible or in any Christian or conservative teaching that says the central government is responsible for that.

Oh, i get it. Throw all the former slaves into ghettos and then they're on their own. If their community doesn't educate itself, screw em.

There's no "punishment" inherent to ensuring that education is based on merit rather than inherited wealth. It is you who suggest punishing poor students for being born into poor families.

Further, "Post the post where I said I wanted to give rich kids an advantage over any other kids," emphasis mine :

Why do you assume I want to give rich children anything other than an equal shot to better themselves? If I worked hard to provide my children with more opportunity, why should they not benefit from that? Such is a Christian principle by the way.

 

[Absentglare]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Of course conservatives dont say that, they just design a system that does it. Then pretend everyone has the same chance, which of couse they dont.

^^^ so much this.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Well I was hoping you would make some kind of contribution of substance to the discussion by supporting your opinion with an argument. Insulting a class of people is not an argument. But if that is not to be, then so be it and I wish for you a good Sunday.

I have contributed something of substance. I am trying to wake the Christians among you up...and suggest that you stop identifying with the American conservative philosophy....because that philosophy is, for the most part, in direct opposition to what Jesus taught.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

I accept your implicit admission that I knew what I was talking about when I said we spend more on Social Programs intended to help people than defense, and that you were wrong when you stated that we did not .

Accept whatever you want.

Social Security is an insurance program.

But...the subject of this thread is trying to understand why people who profess to be Christians would be hypocritical enough to join in the American conservative group.

 

[Absentglare]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

[emoji38] The link is literally FactCheck stating that his claim is false. The piece points out that to distinguish the two when describing the budget, or what the US spends money on, in order to try to make social spending seem smaller than it is or military spending seem bigger is deceptive and incorrect.

Incidentally: no, you do not have a right to a single dime from SS et. al. I agree that the common term "entitlements" is imprecise.

Actually the fact check found that the numbers in the graph were accurate.

And the very association of the word "entitlement" was used to describe SS specifically, so your latter claim is based on brazen ignorance of historical fact.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Must be easy to maintain your political beliefs if you completely dismiss the opposition without consideration.

Whatever gives you the idea that I completely dismiss the opposition without consideration.

I have indicated that I give the opposition LOTS AND LOTS of consideration...and consider their stance to be both wrong and often hypocritical.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Any due consideration would not be politically or personally self-serving, so no, no consideration is given. Self righteousness flows like wine at a wedding.

I give consideration to everything you've written, Humbolt...and responded.

You guys are off the tracks with this line of criticism.

 

[Absentglare]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

I'm not the one defining poverty here. You are. I've seen real poverty. I don't think you know what poverty is.



Do you realize that's the same crap that was pushed originally with the war on poverty. Some climbed out of poverty, but not many, because that wasn't it's intention. The intention was to keep the blacks out of the streets and satisfied with a minimal government stipend. I know because I lived through it, listened to all the political talk, and watched what happened. You didn't, you don't view it through glasses that aren't fogged with political rhetoric, and if you did and you could, you'd deny it because it doesn't conform to your political view. Do you really think I haven't encountered your view many times in the past? You're dreaming. If the objective was as you claim, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The war was a failure in significantly reducing poverty here, but it was a complete success in suppressing the poor politically and buying votes. It's really that simple.

Now, either address the entitlements as a percentage of GDP chart furnished by the government I referred you to, or can your bloviation and give it to someone who cares.

Ironically, your entire post is rhetoric.

I didn't define poverty. I use other people's definitions. Something doesn't cease to exist once you stop caring about it.

The ad hominem is wholly unconvincing. Social policies have been unable to fix poverty in this country care to look anywhere else on the planet to see if consolidation of wealth coincides with slow economic growth, widespread poverty, and misery ? Care to check if any country with a comprehensive welfare state has problems with poverty and education like we do ?

 

[cpwill]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Accept whatever you want.

Social Security is an insurance program.

Social Security is a social program where we give money to people to help them. Insurance transfers risk of catastrophic, low-probability events. Turning 65 is neither catastrophic, nor low-probability. Furthermore, even if you take Social Security out entirely, your claim that we spend more on defense spending than on social programs to "help" people remains woefully incorrect.

But...the subject of this thread is trying to understand why people who profess to be Christians would be hypocritical enough to join in the American conservative group.

Because there is nothing hypocritical about being both a Conservative and a Christian

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

That's a howler. There's been almost a half-dozen Christians refute you already, as opposed to none I could see who agree with you.

If you even had begun to understand the scriptures you would be a Christian yourself. But you're not.

Suggesting I would be a Christian if I understood the scripture makes no sense...and I do understand the scriptures.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

You claimed your opinion was supported by the facts. It has been demonstrated that this is incorrect. Either provide the factual support for your claims, or admit that it is not there.

My opinions are supported by the facts, cp.

I've even called myself to testify that my opinions ARE my opinions.

What other factual support can be given that they are my opinions?

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Social Security is a social program where we give money to people to help them. Insurance transfers risk of catastrophic, low-probability events. Turning 65 is neither catastrophic, nor low-probability. Furthermore, even if you take Social Security out entirely, your claim that we spend more on defense spending than on social programs to "help" people remains woefully incorrect.

It doesn't, but you are being stone headed about not accepting that it does.

Live with it.

Because there is nothing hypocritical about being both a Conservative and a Christian

Yeah, cp...there really is.

 

[fmw]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

My opinion is that anyone who identifies as a Christian...who also identifies as an American conservative...IS a HYPOCRITE.

How do you say that without saying it?

You can say whatever you like.

 

[Absentglare]

Nor do I think we should have one. We should have a smaller one.

Why? Because the federal revenue is a big number ?

We spend very little on our public compared to nearly every other developed nation on Earth.

I didn't suggest life should be free of inequality. What I said was that government should treat people equally. Harvard is a private institution and can admit or reject anyone they wish.
They even offered Washington the title of king. I know of no conservatives that support monarchy for the U.S. You made that up.

How do you define "equally" ? Is it "equal" for rich neighborhoods to have access to extremely well-funded schools and for poor neighborhoods to have underfunded schools ? Seems that's the definition of unfair to me.

Conservatives don't explicitly support monarchy. The power structure they implicitly support is one of consolidated power. They worship the capitalist notion that people should become even richer just because they already have money. That's why the top 1% overwhelmingly utilize income sources like capital gains and dividends that legislators have routinely cut.

The consolidation of power in support of CEOs is a replacing a monarchy via government hierarchy with one utilizing an economic hierarchy.

Perhaps we need to define production. Wealth comes from business profits. Not all business profits come from production unless you define production as whatever any business does.

Not necessarily. The investor might gain wealth from capital appreciation. No production involved at all.


Obviously you misunderstand stock buybacks. Corporate managers buy back the company's stock because they think it is undervalued and, therefore, a good investment. Stock bought back by the company is the property of the company, not the management. In the case of public corporations, the "rich" have nothing to do with it because they don't own it directly. They may own it indirectly if they hold stock in the company. The stock is simply an asset on the books. Perhaps HP's lenders agreed that the stock was undervalued (and it was) so they loaned the company money to buy stock. I don't know the details. I do know that you don't understand how business works.

Capital appreciation would be worthless without production. Consider inflation.

Further, it seems you don't understand how stock buybacks work. The board of directors and CEO own huge amounts of shares. These people redirect revenue into their own pockets by artificially increasing the value of their stock using a forced scarcity. They redirect company funds into their own pockets.

 

[Absentglare]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Social Security is a social program where we give money to people to help them. Insurance transfers risk of catastrophic, low-probability events. Turning 65 is neither catastrophic, nor low-probability. Furthermore, even if you take Social Security out entirely, your claim that we spend more on defense spending than on social programs to "help" people remains woefully incorrect.



Because there is nothing hypocritical about being both a Conservative and a Christian

Insurance : a thing providing protection against a possible eventuality

Words mean things.

It is absolutely hypocritical to be a Christian conservative in America iff you believe that social programs should be reduced.

Liberals believe that government should be exactly as large as it should be. Think goldilocks.

Conservatives think the government should be blindly shrunk until our problems magically go away. It's an exercise in turning a blind eye to the suffering of your fellow man.

But i am unsurprised by the hostility in response to having this quintessential hypocrisy laid bare before your eyes a hundred different ways.