How can the right even suggest that they are Christian[W:487]

[Absentglare]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

How about passing tax cuts that benefit everybody. What kind of warfare is that?

Tax cuts that give poor families $100 but rich families $100,000+ do not really benefit everybody when the resulting budget deficits are abused to crush social programs at a cost greater than $100.

 

[Absentglare]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Sure. Conservatives want tax cuts that boost and energize the economy as well as restore property to the people that government should not have taken in the first place. And that is definitely within the scope of Christian teachings. Conservatives also want government to do what government was constitutionally authorized to do which is to secure the rights of the people, and then leave the people alone to follow whatever dreams they choose and organize their societies as they want them to be. That also falls within the realm of Christian principles. It is not true that conservatives want no cuts in defense. They want a strong defense because that is the only way the government can secure our rights and is the most certain way to achieve lasting peace. But no conservative approves of graft, self-serving spending by anybody in government, waste, or corruption and wants that kind of spending taken out of the defense budget as well as everywhere else. And what is unChristian about that?

Those tax cuts don't stimulate the economy.

Turns out, government spending does.

That's the problem.

 

[humbolt]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Care to specify which point you contest?

We spend $20 billion a year to pay farmers for no reason. We spend only $40 billion a year to send students to get college educations. That is disgusting.

Take a good look at this and start where ever you'd like. The amounts you're mentioning are trifles.

US Government Entitlement Spending History with Charts - a www.usgovernmentspending.com briefing

 

[Absentglare]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

No, the government is incapable of selling me much. I believe virtually nothing that the government or politicians say.



Isn't that something you should take up with the government? If you don't think income tax is fair, then blame the politicians who are corrupted by the wealthy. The problem is easy to fix. We should have the states fund the federal government and the people should fund their state. As an alternative, single term limits would go a long way toward reducing corruption. The problem, as always, is the federal government.



Because the government is too big and spends too much. Way, way, way too much. We have too much debt as well. Turn the federal government over to the states. They will fix it since voters don't seem willing to do it.



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By what process do you conclude that the government spends too much?

We tax and spend relatively low percentages of GDP. Part of the reason we spend too much is that our healthcare industry is so riddled with corruption and the American politicians have failed to address it.

 

[Absentglare]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

And social programs that benefit favored demographics at the forced expense of those who earned and produced the wealth is not a form of class warfare? The government was not given authority to determine who would receive the benefits of the people's labor. The government was given authority to secure everybody's rights and remove as many barriers as possible to the people's liberties so that there would be no designated class distinctions and people of all classes could hope to improve their own circumstances. And while that concept was not necessarily based on Christian principles, it certainly does not depart from them.

So you subscribe to anarcho-capitalism ? The government doesn't have any obligation to educate the public, even though the founding fathers firmly believed that an educated populace is necessary for a well-functioning democracy ?

 

[Absentglare]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

As does adding taxes that benefit the poor at the expense of the wealthy. Every time the government gets involved with fairness instead of equality, we have a problem. The only logical approach for the government to take is to treat everyone the same. Equality which is objective is a better approach than fairness which is subjective every time. We need to learn from these mistakes.

No, it is reversing the social contract to the terms that endured the strongest middle class and economy in the world.

 

[Absentglare]

I was talking to Frank. Read again. I was specifically referring to grabbing and wealth distribution.

If you want to pay more taxes, good for you. To each his own. I'm all for the wealthy paying their fair share too. The key-word is "FAIR," isn't it?
There is nothing fair in grabbing people's wealth - just because they're wealthy!


Who are these "weak" who refuses to pay their fair share? Cheating the taxman. Paying and taking money "under the table." Hiding their income.
Surely, they're made up of all stripes! Nothing to do with religion, or partisanship.

You can start by zeroing on some politicians who'd had made some shady dealings.....who committed corruptions of all sorts.
Some were caught....some, not. I'm sure you'll find them among the liberals, too.

The government distributes wealth. A lack of regulation favors the existing lords and kings over hard-working Americans. Why do you want to redistribute income toward rich people? It is worse for the economy, it is worse for happiness, it is worse for productivity, it is worse in nearly every way imaginable- save that rich lazy folks can abuse their advantage for more personal wealth.

 

[humbolt]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Tax cuts that give poor families $100 but rich families $100,000+ do not really benefit everybody when the resulting budget deficits are abused to crush social programs at a cost greater than $100.

That's not the issue here at all. We could hypothetically strip the wealthy of all their wealth and distribute it to the poor, and we'd end up with more poor than we started with. We will never eliminate all of the poor anymore than we could eliminate all of the wealthy. That will not happen no matter the government policy. We could simply eliminate the baby boomer generation entirely. That would help take some pressure off social programs. However, it might make more sense to get the economy growing at a healthy rate and provide sufficient opportunity and income for the lower middle class so that they don't require federal assistance, thus freeing up money for the truly poor. Of course, that would make sense, so you're probably not interested.

You might consider, in your ruminations, exactly why it's possible to only hypothetically strip the wealthy of all their wealth - but not so much in reality.

 

[Absentglare]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

[emoji38] you are trying to claim that your denigration of conservatives isn't denigration because you have family that is conservative. That's not an excuse for bigotry .

Denigration : criticize unfairly

If the criticism is fair, which it certainly is, then you're just continuing to paint yourself the victim to run from the arguments merits.

Given that Tosca can cite the New Testament to support, and you cannot (and refuse to try), that's rather laughable.

So the old testament isn't a holy book for Christians? That's what your case rests on ...?

 

[AlbqOwl]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

So you subscribe to anarcho-capitalism ? The government doesn't have any obligation to educate the public, even though the founding fathers firmly believed that an educated populace is necessary for a well-functioning democracy ?

That's right. The Founding Fathers did advocate an educated public, but they also to a man pretty well agreed that the central government has no constitutional authority to 'educate' anybody. For government to encourage education violates nobody's rights as it requires no contribution or participation by anybody, but it was always intended that the people themselves would have complete liberty to organize their own societies and conduct education as they saw fit. Those in the central government have no special insight or qualifications to know what 'good education' is more than local school boards, parents, teachers, and members of the community. And it was that way in America until the government found out it could benefit itself and acquire great power and personal fortunes by taking over functions it was never authorized to do.

If you call liberty and a belief that the people should decide what they will do with their resources instead of having somebody else do that for them--if you call that anarcho-capitalism, then yes I do subscribe to it. And it also does not go against Christian teachings.

 

[ksu_aviator]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Whatever. I don't. But I do feel the way I do about American conservatism...and I am sharing a taste of those feelings.



Oh, please! I understand American conservatism. And it sucks.

But...there have always been fools willing to tell the barons that they have the right to lord it over everyone else...because...well, just because. And the fools are willing to fight for the baron's rights.

American conservatives are pretty much the 1%...

...and a bunch of blind lackeys doing their bidding.

The lackeys of American conservatism...are the ones who do not understand American conservatism, cp.




Not sure what that means...but I am not a bigot.

Must be easy to maintain your political beliefs if you completely dismiss the opposition without consideration.

 

[humbolt]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Must be easy to maintain your political beliefs if you completely dismiss the opposition without consideration.

Any due consideration would not be politically or personally self-serving, so no, no consideration is given. Self righteousness flows like wine at a wedding.

 

[Absentglare]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

I'm not an American so I cannot really comment on that.

But if I were to make a guess, I'd say those are tax cuts! Everybody plays taxes depending on income bracket, right? If the government provides the wealthy a little more tax breaks, it's usually as an incentive to attract more investors. More investors mean more job creations. This days, you have to compete with other countries in luring businesses. The economy depends largely on them.

I suspect you're somehow oblivious too about the whole thing. If you're saying those tax cuts are a "redistribution of wealth" to the wealthy :roll:.....then consider the fact that it's redistributed to everyone, after all, it creates jobs!

People may all "pay less" but when a poor person sees their benefits cut by $1,000 a $100 tax cut means squat. Further, the rich people make hundreds of thousands of dollars off of these same cuts.

First of all, the FIT is our most progressive tax. Payroll tax cuts would help the working class. FIT cuts help the rich.

While supply side economics has a theory to explain how it can create growth, empirically, you can see that President Reagan and President Bush 2 did not spur economic growth very well with their tax cuts. You can see this in the revenue side of the equation :

 

[Absentglare]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Passing tax cuts to inordinately benefit the poor is also a form of class warfare. What's wrong with passing tax cuts that benefit everybody? And again, if I'm paying my taxes, I'm as compassionate as you seem to demand, and therefore your claim is groundless that I lack compassion. Understand, I, personally, make no law. I simply obey them. I am therefore as compassionate as the law requires in your view. In fact, I'm not sure what you're carping about. As a conservative, I favor more actual private charitable giving, and less from the government through any tax policy at all, which you have adequately demonstrated is fertile ground for favoring one group over another in some form of financial warfare. One should hope the government govern with equanimity.

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Indentured servitude only satisfies the condition of life.

Private charities are failures. Government expenditures are actually useful at spurring economic growth.

 

[Absentglare]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

I accept your implicit admission that I knew what I was talking about when I said we spend more on Social Programs intended to help people than defense, and that you were wrong when you stated that we did not .

No, you don't seem to understand what the word "entitlement" means.

Entitlement : the fact of having a right to something

People are genuinely entitled to social security because they pay into the system via payroll taxes. So that 40% of income we receive through payroll taxes means that they don't have to pull money from other revenue sources to pay for them. Defense is NOT funded by any specific tax and it is ABSOLUTELY been the most massive expenditure liability the United States has for decades.

But; you know, keep on spinning.

 

[fmw]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

No, it is reversing the social contract to the terms that endured the strongest middle class and economy in the world.

That is an opinion I don't share. Sorry. What caused us to have the strongest middle class and economy in the world was capitalism. It had nothing at all to do with government or taxation.

 

[humbolt]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Indentured servitude only satisfies the condition of life.

Private charities are failures. Government expenditures are actually useful at spurring economic growth.

That's a story, there. Good private charities are vastly more efficient than any government program could ever hope to be. And I might also mention that if the government expenditures spur economic growth, then private one's surely do as well. The money doesn't know from whence it came.

 

[fmw]

The government distributes wealth.

Nonsense. Wealth is earned.

 

[Absentglare]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Take a good look at this and start where ever you'd like. The amounts you're mentioning are trifles.

US Government Entitlement Spending History with Charts - a [url]www.usgovernmentspending.com briefing[/url]

Entitlements are genuine entitlements. American conservatives have perverted the word to refer to benefits received that are undeserved. Maybe they took a hint from hipsters and figured irony would be a good way to disenfranchise the poor from the pittance of benefits they receive.

 

[fmw]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

By what process do you conclude that the government spends too much?

It has nothing to do with process. We have a government that is bloated, overbearing, incompetent and corrupt in my opinion. When it was smaller it was better. Just a matter of experience.

We tax and spend relatively low percentages of GDP.

That is meaningless to me, particularly when one considers that the government is a part of the GDP.

Part of the reason we spend too much is that our healthcare industry is so riddled with corruption and the American politicians have failed to address it.

View attachment 67193415

What you should wish for is to have the politicians address even less. They don't do a very good job of improving anything.

 

[Absentglare]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

That's not the issue here at all. We could hypothetically strip the wealthy of all their wealth and distribute it to the poor, and we'd end up with more poor than we started with. We will never eliminate all of the poor anymore than we could eliminate all of the wealthy. That will not happen no matter the government policy. We could simply eliminate the baby boomer generation entirely. That would help take some pressure off social programs. However, it might make more sense to get the economy growing at a healthy rate and provide sufficient opportunity and income for the lower middle class so that they don't require federal assistance, thus freeing up money for the truly poor. Of course, that would make sense, so you're probably not interested.

You might consider, in your ruminations, exactly why it's possible to only hypothetically strip the wealthy of all their wealth - but not so much in reality.

You're simply assuming that we cannot reduce poverty. Anyone who looks at a problem and says "we can't solve it completely fix it without hard work and dedication so let's not bother," is simply being lazy.

You are the one being unrealistic here. It is very simple to grow an economy. What you do is empower people who are currently powerless, largely the poor. Then, they can get an education and produce highly valued goods.

See how well government spending can work-

 

[Absentglare]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

That's right. The Founding Fathers did advocate an educated public, but they also to a man pretty well agreed that the central government has no constitutional authority to 'educate' anybody. For government to encourage education violates nobody's rights as it requires no contribution or participation by anybody, but it was always intended that the people themselves would have complete liberty to organize their own societies and conduct education as they saw fit. Those in the central government have no special insight or qualifications to know what 'good education' is more than local school boards, parents, teachers, and members of the community. And it was that way in America until the government found out it could benefit itself and acquire great power and personal fortunes by taking over functions it was never authorized to do.

If you call liberty and a belief that the people should decide what they will do with their resources instead of having somebody else do that for them--if you call that anarcho-capitalism, then yes I do subscribe to it. And it also does not go against Christian teachings.

Lol they have no constitutional authority to educate anyone ?

So the people who can't afford a good education should just go **** themselves? Why do you want to give rich children an unfair advantage ?

 

[mak2]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Lol they have no constitutional authority to educate anyone ?

So the people who can't afford a good education should just go **** themselves? Why do you want to give rich children an unfair advantage ?

It keeps them poor people in their place.

 

[Absentglare]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Any due consideration would not be politically or personally self-serving, so no, no consideration is given. Self righteousness flows like wine at a wedding.

Must be easy to maintain your political beliefs if you completely dismiss the opposition without consideration.

If supply side economics were a success by any measure, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Conservatives have failed to be fiscally responsible by any metric. They have repeatedly failed. Yet their loyal adherents continue to worship to the free market.

 

[fmw]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Entitlements are genuine entitlements.

Genuine in what way? Because the congress passed a law? We are back at the issue of equality vs. fairness. I'm not against entitlements as long as they apply to everyone and work the same way for everyone. that doesn't seem to be the case with some entitlements. Farm subsidies are an example. So are Obamacare subsidies. These are examplary of subjective fairness rather than objective equality.