How can the right even suggest that they are Christian[W:487]

[AlbqOwl]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Saying it should be privatized is tantamount to saying it should be almost completely abolished.

Some things should be privatized. Some things should be handled by the states and local communities. For the federal government to assume authority to do it is tyranny.

 

[jbander]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

There are tons of verses about helping the needy and the oppressed. However, these are the issues I'm making:


1. Where does it say the people are forced to give?


It is more blessed to give than to receive
Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will repay him for his deed

If people are forced to give, what generosity is there to be blessed about, and to be REPAID FOR THE GENEROUS DEED?
Everyone will be on the same footing, wouldn't it?




2. Who made you judge that the Conservative way of giving isn't the right way? You have your own opinion on how things should be done
.....then, elect someone who shares your opinion!


You ought to worry about the speck in your own eyes! Socialist and liberal values aren't exactly in line with Christ's teachings, you know. They're more out of whack with Christ's teachings that it wouldn't surprise me if liberalism is the symbol of the Anti-Christ!




3. You guys criticized the fact that Conservatives spend money on war. Well? Read the verse you gave:

Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”

That's what the Conservatives are trying to do, whether you agree with the method or not! You do whatever method you want when you are in power!





4. You want to eliminate poverty! That's your thrust. Well, guess what? There will always be poverty! Look at the verse you gave:

For there will never cease to be poor in the land.


Therefore, your dream of ending poverty isn't gonna happen! Perhaps there will always be poor people for the simple reason that God wants us to be VOLUNTARY, GENEROUS GIVERS!

There wouldn't be any need for giving if there's no one to give to!





5. There's no wealth-grabbing for wealth-redistribution. Dream on.

Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

There is no ENFORCEMENT!

It's all ENCOURAGEMENT!

God wants us to be cheerful at giving, and generous! He provides the incentives by the promise of rewards for the good deed.




I don't know if you know that there are two kinds of judgement. One is judging the believers from the non-believers.
The second is "judgement" of believers. All followers are saved - the Bible is clear on that.


6. ALL CHRISTIANS ARE SAVED!

The "judgement" of the believers is about rewards that will be given fitting what we've done.
That's why it says there'll be individual accounting with God!

Romans 14:12
So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.

Matt 12:36
But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken.


MATTHEW 16:27
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.


2cOR 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.


Gal 6:5
for each one should carry their own load.

1 Peter 4:5
But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.



What rewards are those, we do not know. But the Bible is clear that followers of Christ - Christians - are saved.


What makes one a Christian, is up to God. Only He, knows what's in our hearts.

Your first I'll take a shot at. In the bible it says that all kings are selected by God, and two things are asked of them, one to act as God would and follow his laws, his laws are defined clearly . two of them that I have found, That make it clear that we have to take car of the needy. The King in the bible is government. There are probably many many more because there is over 600 of Gods laws. This is the last thing that all regressive want to hear. Because they want to move this money from the poor to the top, in their trickle up economics.

 

[AlbqOwl]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

I know exactly to the dollar what the regressive solution is , a unsupported arbitrary cut of 3.5 trillion dollars as spelled out clearly in Paul Ryans budget proposals signed on by 100% of the regressive politicization in the two houses. There is no guessing it is spelled out clearly. With that money his budget then turned around and would give the wealthy and big business billions while increasing the military budget by billions, again which of course goes to big business also.
They have know support in studies showing that people are taking advantage of the system enough to change the program , Paul Ryan,like all regressives, have their own Number in their mind that are abusing the system, so his 3.5 trillion number is arbitrary nonsense,. This study has been done over and over through the years , same answer, not guilty, reminds me of The Hillary witch hunt. What are we up to now? 7 committees, after each one says non guilty the regressive start another one, this is just part of the new rights ugliness.
If the regressives think that their is massive amount of people abusing the system ,why then instead of this type of arbitrary across the board cuts to the old, poor and needy . Why aren't they asking to increase the policing of the programs, triple the people that look into people taking advantage. It's simple they know what they will come up with and the real point has nothing to do with anything other then the transfer of wealth to the top , by taking money from the poor and middle class to trickle up to the top. This being the only reason that the regressive party exist.

I am not debating administrative policies here and will resist doing that as it will derail the thread. The question is not dollar amounts here but the motives of conservatives. I believe conservatives have superior motives when it comes to concern for the poor because they push policies that could eliminate a huge lion's share of the poverty that exists rather than continuing to encourage more dependency on government.

 

[Absentglare]

Some things should be privatized. Some things should be handled by the states and local communities. For the federal government to assume authority to do it is tyranny.

Saying "handled by the states" is meaningless unless your states have plans to provide funds for the poor.

Since there are many states which have huge numbers of poor people that are both red and do not have booming economies, it stands to reason that many states will elect to leave the poor people to fend for themselves. Actually, this is seen as a valid tactic to "light a fire up their ass" as though the only thing stopping them from being wealthy is the fact that the government helps them.

 

[jbander]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

The words of Jesus in the Bible are:



No camel ever went through the eye of a needle. Ever.

And since it is harder for a rich man to enter Heaven...no rich man will go to Heaven...according to Jesus.

Live with it.

I understand your point but the eye of the needle is also a gate in Jerusalem a very small gate., I don't think it exist anymore . the point is, if thats the case and we don't really know its size. It's possible that some camels got pulled through this small gate. Point doesn't change though. it's almost impossible for a rich man to get into heaven , the demands on him from God are way higher then the demands on us little people as the regressives would say.. No matter which Eye the Bible is talking about.

 

[AlbqOwl]

Saying "handled by the states" is meaningless unless your states have plans to provide funds for the poor.

Since there are many states which have huge numbers of poor people that are both red and do not have booming economies, it stands to reason that many states will elect to leave the poor people to fend for themselves. Actually, this is seen as a valid tactic to "light a fire up their ass" as though the only thing stopping them from being wealthy is the fact that the government helps them.

I stand by my statements. The states and local communities are far more able to know and deal with the needs of their people than any one-size-fits-all federal program that swallows up two thirds of the resources just to feed itself in an unmanageable and hugely expensive federal bureaucracy. And there is far less temptation for self-serving greed and corruption and creation of generational dependencies at the state and local level so most of the resources do get to those who need them. That is why the Founders wisely did not assign such power to the federal government and instead encouraged and applauded traditional values that would take care of the less fortunate who were unable to care for themselves.

 

[jbander]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. Matthew 12:30

90+% allowed in so far have been Muslims.

Who are you to judge?

In the Koran Jesus is a prophet, which means he knows the will of God. The God of The bible and the Koran are the Same god, which in both cases is the God of Abraham . I believe in any case that all people on this earth can Rise to heaven. All of their Gods is our God defined differently by culture.

 

[jbander]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

The words of Jesus in the Bible are:



No camel ever went through the eye of a needle. Ever.

And since it is harder for a rich man to enter Heaven...no rich man will go to Heaven...according to Jesus.

Live with it.

I understand your point but the eye of the needle is also the name of a gate in Jerusalem during the time of Jesus. It was used after dark when the main gate was closed. You had to unpack all the baggage being carried by your camels so that you could get the camel through because of it hight, I would guess . I have to be honest I don't know if it still exist to prove anyones point on this.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

He said he was God. Not godlike. And that was certainly John's (his closest disciple) understanding. If you were so up on the Christian scriptures as you say, you would know that.

If you were as up on scripture as you seem to think you are...you would realize that the gospel of John was almost certainly not written by John the disciple...not even close. In any case, the gospel of John is the least compelling of the gospels...and the least reliable. It is, essentially, a fairy tale.

And in the context of the teaching of the rich man, he was clearly referencing those who put their money before God and not every rich man.

I love when you people do this, because it shows you for what you really are...dissemblers.

The passage clearly as Jesus talking about "rich men"...and talks about their wealth. It does not in any way suggest that he was talking only about rich men who put their money before god.

As I said you have to put the teachings within their full context to know what he meant. He had no harsh words of any kind to say about other rich men he used in his commentary, teachings, and parables and instead defended and/or praised them.

I just put the remark into context...and now you want another context, because this one does not work.

C'mon. Give it a break.

The non-believer will of necessity distort or misinterpret scriptures just as they distort and/or misinterpret the philosophy of the average conservative and/or Christian.

The true distorters of scripture are the "believers"...who will torture logic, reason, and wording in order to try to shoe-horn some of their nonsense into being reasonable.

ESPECIALLY the Christians who are hypocrites and identify as American conservatives. They have LOTS of shoe-horning to do. LOTS!

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

I am not debating administrative policies here and will resist doing that as it will derail the thread. The question is not dollar amounts here but the motives of conservatives. I believe conservatives have superior motives when it comes to concern for the poor because they push policies that could eliminate a huge lion's share of the poverty that exists rather than continuing to encourage more dependency on government.

My guess is that Jesus would be mortified by the rationalizations used by people like you to suggest that the conservatives, with their attitude of "hooray for me; screw you" have superior motives when it comes to concern for the poor...over liberals.

He probably would laugh that anyone could delude him/herself that much.

The conservative approach to "helping the poor" is a variation on, "Kick 'em hard enough, and they will develop the good grace to stop being poor. It is their fault they are poor...and a good, swift kick in the butt...administered often enough, is the best medicine."

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

I understand your point but the eye of the needle is also a gate in Jerusalem a very small gate., I don't think it exist anymore . the point is, if thats the case and we don't really know its size. It's possible that some camels got pulled through this small gate. Point doesn't change though. it's almost impossible for a rich man to get into heaven , the demands on him from God are way higher then the demands on us little people as the regressives would say.. No matter which Eye the Bible is talking about.

When I first brought this up...I asked not to have that "gate into Jerusalem" nonsense be brought out, because it is an absurdity.

Jesus was saying that it was easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Heaven. He meant exactly that. Don't fall for the door into Jerusalem nonsense, j...it is smoke and mirrors.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

I understand your point but the eye of the needle is also the name of a gate in Jerusalem during the time of Jesus. It was used after dark when the main gate was closed. You had to unpack all the baggage being carried by your camels so that you could get the camel through because of it hight, I would guess . I have to be honest I don't know if it still exist to prove anyones point on this.

The Bible says he said "...the eye of a needle..."...not..."the eye of the needle" which is what he would have said if he meant that specific gate. The reasoning on this is tortured.

We know what the Bible intends that he meant.

 

[Absentglare]

I stand by my statements. The states and local communities are far more able to know and deal with the needs of their people than any one-size-fits-all federal program that swallows up two thirds of the resources just to feed itself in an unmanageable and hugely expensive federal bureaucracy. And there is far less temptation for self-serving greed and corruption and creation of generational dependencies at the state and local level so most of the resources do get to those who need them. That is why the Founders wisely did not assign such power to the federal government and instead encouraged and applauded traditional values that would take care of the less fortunate who were unable to care for themselves.

Your rhetoric will not help the poor.

The Founders did not assign hardly any powers to the federal government for clean air, for example. Do you think clean air is a bad thing? Do you think we'd be better off smothered in smog? The federal government must resolve these negative externalities that cause the public to bear the burden of other's neglect. Poverty qualifies.

The belief that the government consumes 2/3rds of money for no value is a provably false belief. It is merely a monumental act of faith that could allow any thinking individual to consider such a belief to be valid in the context of the present day United States.

Sure, there's an argument that the smallest government, governs best. That argument is very limited in scope. How stupid would it be if you couldn't drive in other states until you get a license in that state? How about if it was that way for every city? See, the aspect of this point that i have the most disdain for is that consolidation of infrastructure actually saves us money. Can you imagine if every city had its own DMV that you had to get a license in ? Horribly inefficient. So while your ideal here has some merit, i don't agree that it's worth it. The idea that a series of mom and pop shops are "more efficient" than Walmart is provably false.

 

[ChezC3]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

In the Koran Jesus is a prophet, which means he knows the will of God. The God of The bible and the Koran are the Same god, which in both cases is the God of Abraham . I believe in any case that all people on this earth can Rise to heaven. All of their Gods is our God defined differently by culture.

I know who Eisa is. Being the Spirit of Allah has its advantages. Yes, they are. The God of Abraham, yes yes, what you say is all very true. All people on this earth can rise to heaven depending on their actions. (the key). There is no their God and are God. La ilaha illallah

 

[AlbqOwl]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

If you were as up on scripture as you seem to think you are...you would realize that the gospel of John was almost certainly not written by John the disciple...not even close. In any case, the gospel of John is the least compelling of the gospels...and the least reliable. It is, essentially, a fairy tale.




I love when you people do this, because it shows you for what you really are...dissemblers.

The passage clearly as Jesus talking about "rich men"...and talks about their wealth. It does not in any way suggest that he was talking only about rich men who put their money before god.




I just put the remark into context...and now you want another context, because this one does not work.

C'mon. Give it a break.



The true distorters of scripture are the "believers"...who will torture logic, reason, and wording in order to try to shoe-horn some of their nonsense into being reasonable.

ESPECIALLY the Christians who are hypocrites and identify as American conservatives. They have LOTS of shoe-horning to do. LOTS!

Sorry Frank but you are wrong about scripture and you are wrong about me, about conservatives in general, and about Christians in particular. I'll refer you to previous posts for clarification. But do have a nice day.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Sorry Frank but you are wrong about scripture and you are wrong about me, about conservatives in general, and about Christians in particular. I'll refer you to previous posts for clarification. But do have a nice day.

Have a nice day yourself, Owl...but you are the one who is "wrong" about scripture...not I.

 

[AlbqOwl]

Your rhetoric will not help the poor.

The Founders did not assign hardly any powers to the federal government for clean air, for example. Do you think clean air is a bad thing? Do you think we'd be better off smothered in smog? The federal government must resolve these negative externalities that cause the public to bear the burden of other's neglect. Poverty qualifies.

The belief that the government consumes 2/3rds of money for no value is a provably false belief. It is merely a monumental act of faith that could allow any thinking individual to consider such a belief to be valid in the context of the present day United States.

Sure, there's an argument that the smallest government, governs best. That argument is very limited in scope. How stupid would it be if you couldn't drive in other states until you get a license in that state? How about if it was that way for every city? See, the aspect of this point that i have the most disdain for is that consolidation of infrastructure actually saves us money. Can you imagine if every city had its own DMV that you had to get a license in ? Horribly inefficient. So while your ideal here has some merit, i don't agree that it's worth it. The idea that a series of mom and pop shops are "more efficient" than Walmart is provably false.

Certainly the Founders assigned powers to the federal government re clean air or anything else that affects everybody, young and old, rich and poor, etc. So they would have had no problems with regulations that prevented one state from polluting the air of another state who did not accept that pollution. They did not assign to the federal government the ability to pick winners and losers, the ability to choose to use the people's money to benefit some citizens but not all, to favor one group over another group, etc. As the Founders defined the general welfare, they meant all citizen's welfare without any qualifications. And the federal government does not issue driver's licenses or vehicle licenses--that is one function they have absolutely left to the states to do. Interstate travel is regulated by the federal government on federal highways only and even that was via consent of the states. They to a man put constitutional laws into place that maximized liberty while leaving to the federal government strictly enumerated authorities to do what the states could not logically do.

They to a man would have been described as conservative in America's modern understanding of the term. And everything they did was with the best interests of the country in mind. Just like the majority of modern day American conservatives and Christians do now.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Certainly the Founders assigned powers to the federal government re clean air or anything else that affects everybody, young and old, rich and poor, etc. So they would have had no problems with regulations that prevented one state from polluting the air of another state who did not accept that pollution. They did not assign to the federal government the ability to pick winners and losers, the ability to choose to use the people's money to benefit some citizens but not all, to favor one group over another group, etc. As the Founders defined the general welfare, they meant all citizen's welfare without any qualifications. And the federal government does not issue driver's licenses or vehicle licenses--that is one function they have absolutely left to the states to do. Interstate travel is regulated by the federal government on federal highways only and even that was via consent of the states. They to a man put constitutional laws into place that maximized liberty while leaving to the federal government strictly enumerated authorities to do what the states could not logically do.

They to a man would have been described as conservative in America's modern understanding of the term. And everything they did was with the best interests of the country in mind. Just like the majority of modern day American conservatives and Christians do now.

The Founding Fathers, for the most part, were radicals.

The conservatives...or Tories...were back in New York fighting to be conservative...which means sticking with George III.

Any conservative who thinks of the Founding Fathers as conservative...simply does not understand the term.

 

[jbander]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

I am not debating administrative policies here and will resist doing that as it will derail the thread. The question is not dollar amounts here but the motives of conservatives. I believe conservatives have superior motives when it comes to concern for the poor because they push policies that could eliminate a huge lion's share of the poverty that exists rather than continuing to encourage more dependency on government.

The point is this is totally in your mind, There is so little Truth that people are taking advantage of it, if you can find anything to support your premise I'll be glad to look at it. Your superior motive is a joke and all credible studies show that. The regressive party creates more poor and make the poor and middle class poorer than sits here, as you doing, attacking them for being poor. Show me the beef.

 

[AlbqOwl]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

The point is this is totally in your mind, There is so little Truth that people are taking advantage of it, if you can find anything to support your premise I'll be glad to look at it. Your superior motive is a joke and all credible studies show that. The regressive party creates more poor and make the poor and middle class poorer than sits here, as you doing, attacking them for being poor. Show me the beef.

According to the CATO institute, the federal government has spent more than $15 trillion on poverty programs since the passage of the Great Society initiatives of LBJ. The poverty rate, however, remains about the same as it was then. The difference now is that you have multi generations of people dependent on some form of welfare when that wasn't the case before.

 

[jbander]

Saying "handled by the states" is meaningless unless your states have plans to provide funds for the poor.

Since there are many states which have huge numbers of poor people that are both red and do not have booming economies, it stands to reason that many states will elect to leave the poor people to fend for themselves. Actually, this is seen as a valid tactic to "light a fire up their ass" as though the only thing stopping them from being wealthy is the fact that the government helps them.

Tyranny, you don't know a thing about the constitution. Try Article 6 clause 2 to start. There are more but that will make your tyranny line put in its place where it belongs , in da garbage.

 

[jbander]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

The Bible says he said "...the eye of a needle..."...not..."the eye of the needle" which is what he would have said if he meant that specific gate. The reasoning on this is tortured.

We know what the Bible intends that he meant.

I lean that direction because your premise that the rich can't get to heaven , isn't believable. Also there is more to that passage that supports my premise ---"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter gthe kingdom of God.” 26 And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him,3 “Then who can be saved?” 27 Jesus looked at them and said, l“With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.” 2"

 

[Absentglare]

Certainly the Founders assigned powers to the federal government re clean air or anything else that affects everybody, young and old, rich and poor, etc. So they would have had no problems with regulations that prevented one state from polluting the air of another state who did not accept that pollution. They did not assign to the federal government the ability to pick winners and losers, the ability to choose to use the people's money to benefit some citizens but not all, to favor one group over another group, etc. As the Founders defined the general welfare, they meant all citizen's welfare without any qualifications. And the federal government does not issue driver's licenses or vehicle licenses--that is one function they have absolutely left to the states to do. Interstate travel is regulated by the federal government on federal highways only and even that was via consent of the states. They to a man put constitutional laws into place that maximized liberty while leaving to the federal government strictly enumerated authorities to do what the states could not logically do.

They to a man would have been described as conservative in America's modern understanding of the term. And everything they did was with the best interests of the country in mind. Just like the majority of modern day American conservatives and Christians do now.

They did not give the federal government the power to regulate clean air or food safety.

They absolutely did give the government the ability to levy taxes and provide services.

The drivers license was showing the ridiculousness of passing every administrative duty blindly to the bottom. You'd just have rich people found their own state whose borders doesn't include the ghettos, build a big fence, armed guards, and bam. Now you've put poor people into internment camps. It's passing the buck of poverty along instead of taking responsibility for it like any Christian should be happy to do.

 

[Absentglare]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

According to the CATO institute, the federal government has spent more than $15 trillion on poverty programs since the passage of the Great Society initiatives of LBJ. The poverty rate, however, remains about the same as it was then. The difference now is that you have multi generations of people dependent on some form of welfare when that wasn't the case before.

And your basis for this conclusion is that $15 trillion is a really big number?

How about we look up how much it costs to feed, house, and provide healthcare for people in poverty along that span of time and then compare the two before we conclude anything?

Furthermore, we need to educate the poor, which costs more than the bare minimum to keep them out of poverty. We share with one another. We carry each other.

 

[Absentglare]

Jesus believed that the strong should protect the weak.

American conservatives believe the weak are meat the strong should eat.