Honest question, why do you support gun control? [W:244]

[Libertie76]

Right. But my point is that ALL cars are safer. Much safer.

If you recall, you were scoffing that anyone would buy a car with a steering column that was shown to cause massive chest injuries in even minor crashes.

The reason that doesn't exist now is because of Ralph Nader and the U.S. Government. A clear example of why the free market isn't really nirvana.

Your argument was that government stopped people from buying dangerous cars, my argument was that the free market would be more efficient in doing so

 

[Threegoofs]

Your argument was that government stopped people from buying dangerous cars, my argument was that the free market would be more efficient in doing so

The free market had 60 years to do it. Only when regulation stepped in did it happen.

Wonder if we can replicate that with guns, which kill as many as cars these days- thanks to auto safety regulation and research.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/01/09/guns-traffic-deaths-rates/1784595/

 

[Libertie76]

The free market had 60 years to do it. Only when regulation stepped in did it happen.

Wonder if we can replicate that with guns, which kill as many as cars these days- thanks to auto safety regulation and research.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/01/09/guns-traffic-deaths-rates/1784595/

1. Read your post " Though officials have not conjectured about the increase, 2011 numbers show that fatalities were up 20% for large truck occupants, 9% for bicyclists, 3% for pedestrians and 2% for motorcyclists. Distracted-driving fatalities also increased by 2% in 2011."

2. Regulation in vehicles is necessary but more efficient privately, do you have statistics suggesting before regulations vehicle safety as worse off?

3. Nadars lobby group your first article is about is private

4. Your second post says traffic deaths have dropped to it lowest point per 37,000 since 1949

5. Most traffic laws are state, not federal

6. efficient safety technology does not come from government, it comes from manufacturer's.

 

[AmericanSpartan]

I have no idea what you're talking about.

The safety regulations on cars are strict and have been increasingly tighter for decades. That's why cars are safer.

So it has nothing to do with improvements in tech/style of building them?

Its the private market, but it is ok, we did not expect you know what we are taking about.

 

[Crimefree]

So it has nothing to do with improvements in tech/style of building them?.

Are you claiming it is vehicle safety improvement that have reduced accidents? Exactly how do these safety improvements reduce accidents?

Its the private market, but it is ok, we did not expect you know what we are taking about

I have no clue what you are babbling about. Get back on topic.

What I see is you want to apply a heap of safety features to guns in order to stop accidents.

How many of these accidents do you intend to stop and how many are there now?

 

[AJiveMan]

Babblers babbling to babblers, now that's priceless. :lol:

 

[Libertie76]

So, you would agree with basic gun safety regulations... and then leave it to the manufacturer and the consumer to exceed them if they so choose?

Well it's tough because driving In the eyes of law is a privilege

Guns are a right

That's like saying should there be safety nets in freedom of speech due to Charlie hebdo attack?

I think all gun safety can and should be done privately, if people have a Problem with certain aspects of guns protest though the manufacturer's and new business ideas. Getting the Government involved will only open the door to allow them to restrict more of our rights; which we've seen government likes to do throughout history

 

[Threegoofs]

1. Read your post " Though officials have not conjectured about the increase, 2011 numbers show that fatalities were up 20% for large truck occupants, 9% for bicyclists, 3% for pedestrians and 2% for motorcyclists. Distracted-driving fatalities also increased by 2% in 2011."

2. Regulation in vehicles is necessary but more efficient privately, do you have statistics suggesting before regulations vehicle safety as worse off?

3. Nadars lobby group your first article is about is private

4. Your second post says traffic deaths have dropped to it lowest point per 37,000 since 1949

5. Most traffic laws are state, not federal

6. efficient safety technology does not come from government, it comes from manufacturer's.

Five facts, and #2 is an opinion based on...nothing.

I don't know what to tell you. Government regulation has driven overall car safety since 1965. It's just not an arguable point.

 

[Threegoofs]

Are you claiming it is vehicle safety improvement that have reduced accidents? Exactly how do these safety improvements reduce accidents?



I have no clue what you are babbling about. Get back on topic.

What I see is you want to apply a heap of safety features to guns in order to stop accidents.

How many of these accidents do you intend to stop and how many are there now?

Reduced accidents, reduced traffic fatalities.

ABS, seat belts, electronic stability control, roll bars, stronger windshields, safety glass, etc etc etc.

 

[Libertie76]

Five facts, and #2 is an opinion based on...nothing.

I don't know what to tell you. Government regulation has driven overall car safety since 1965. It's just not an arguable point.

1. If you make it a law to make seat belts but then your car manufacturer makes a seat belt design much superior then the state regulation on seat belts, then it's the market being more efficient in safety.

2. You can not prove this beyond any reasonable doubt. You can prove they passed laws but you can't prove it's more efficient then what the market could've done. This is because Automobiles are still relatively new

 

[Libertie76]

Reduced accidents, reduced traffic fatalities.

ABS, seat belts, electronic stability control, roll bars, stronger windshields, safety glass, etc etc etc.

This is all wrong again read your article

" Though officials have not conjectured about the increase, 2011 numbers show that fatalities were up 20% for large truck occupants, 9% for bicyclists, 3% for pedestrians and 2% for motorcyclists. Distracted-driving fatalities also increased by 2% in 2011."

That means that increased regulation still didn't decrease accidents, those are all traffic related fatalities on the rise.

 

[TurtleDude]

This is all wrong again read your article

" Though officials have not conjectured about the increase, 2011 numbers show that fatalities were up 20% for large truck occupants, 9% for bicyclists, 3% for pedestrians and 2% for motorcyclists. Distracted-driving fatalities also increased by 2% in 2011."

That means that increased regulation still didn't decrease accidents, those are all traffic related fatalities on the rise.

the gun banners don't even belief the specious arguments they spew

its all about harassing people who don't buy into their agenda


some politicians spew anti gun idiocy for the purpose of pandering to slow witted voters who demand SOMETHING BE DONE every time some nutcase goes berserk in a victim disarmament zone. some of those politicians may not actually be primarily motivated by a desire to harass gun owners but rather by a desire to pander

but when you are dealing with people not running for office, who continually whine about gun owners-its not about crime control but a hatred for those of us who aren't leftwing nanny state fan boys

 

[Threegoofs]

This is all wrong again read your article

" Though officials have not conjectured about the increase, 2011 numbers show that fatalities were up 20% for large truck occupants, 9% for bicyclists, 3% for pedestrians and 2% for motorcyclists. Distracted-driving fatalities also increased by 2% in 2011."

That means that increased regulation still didn't decrease accidents, those are all traffic related fatalities on the rise.

LOL. What is is about libertarians? They seem to not be able to understand the simplest statistical concepts... the long term trend is tremendously lowered, statistical bumps happen because its a real world population with lots of variables, but the signal is that accidents and fatalities and injuries have precipitously dropped.

And, moreover, that blip seems to be corrected and headed downward again.

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/812101.pdf

Leading to this:

 

[Libertie76]

LOL. What is is about libertarians? They seem to not be able to understand the simplest statistical concepts... the long term trend is tremendously lowered, statistical bumps happen because its a real world population with lots of variables, but the signal is that accidents and fatalities and injuries have precipitously dropped.

And, moreover, that blip seems to be corrected and headed downward again.

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/812101.pdf

Leading to this:

1. The traffic fatalities decrease is due to New technology not correlated with added regulations. We see this because even after regulations of 60 s and 70s car death went up, however with added technology ib the 80 s it started dropping

2. The increase in gun deaths Is due to added regulations ib gun carrying

http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2013/03/13/gun-laws-study

If you pay attention the highest murder rates by guns are in the cities with the most gun laws

The problem with most people in today's society is they don't know how to look at data

 

[TurtleDude]

1. The traffic fatalities decrease is due to New technology not correlated with added regulations. We see this because even after regulations of 60 s and 70s car death went up, however with added technology ib the 80 s it started dropping

2. The increase in gun deaths Is due to added regulations ib gun carrying

Study Finds States With Most Gun Laws Have Fewest Gun Deaths But… | Here & Now

If you pay attention the highest murder rates by guns are in the cities with the most gun laws

The problem with most people in today's society is they don't know how to look at data

he is claiming projections=data

if that was true-we never would have had most of the abominations foisted upon us by the New Deal after 1936

 

[Threegoofs]

1. The traffic fatalities decrease is due to New technology not correlated with added regulations. We see this because even after regulations of 60 s and 70s car death went up, however with added technology ib the 80 s it started dropping

2. The increase in gun deaths Is due to added regulations ib gun carrying

Study Finds States With Most Gun Laws Have Fewest Gun Deaths But… | Here & Now

If you pay attention the highest murder rates by guns are in the cities with the most gun laws

The problem with most people in today's society is they don't know how to look at data

LOL. I look at and interpret data for a living. And I'm considered pretty damn good at it by most.

Actually, the most basic of the mandatory regulations were seat belt laws which became tighter and tighter from 1968 to the 90s, with mandatory three point belts put in, state seat belt use laws, massive educational campaigns, etc. Fatalities decreased proportionately.

I think its hilarious that you think the private sector is coming up with these things and then regulations are put into place AFTER that. It happens in some cases (note how backup cameras/sensors will be standard equipment in all cars in 2016), but the long list of safety regulations that are mandated by the feds are there because manufacturers wont do them unless forced to... because they add money to the cost of a car. You use Volvo as an example, and they certainly do lead the way with safety. but they dont drive innovations into Fiats until the government mandates it universally.

As I said, this isnt really an arguable point. But in order for you to cling to your bizarre libertarian ideology, you have to defend and maintain your point of view. I wont even get into the gun part because it makes you guys go off your rocker... you cant even get the concept about cars down - I cant even imagine what irrational posts would ensue if I rolled guns into it.

 

[TurtleDude]

LOL. I look at and interpret data for a living. And I'm considered pretty damn good at it by most.

Actually, the most basic of the mandatory regulations were seat belt laws which became tighter and tighter from 1968 to the 90s, with mandatory three point belts put in, state seat belt use laws, massive educational campaigns, etc. Fatalities decreased proportionately.

I think its hilarious that you think the private sector is coming up with these things and then regulations are put into place AFTER that. It happens in some cases (note how backup cameras/sensors will be standard equipment in all cars in 2016), but the long list of safety regulations that are mandated by the feds are there because manufacturers wont do them unless forced to... because they add money to the cost of a car. You use Volvo as an example, and they certainly do lead the way with safety. but they dont drive innovations into Fiats until the government mandates it universally.

As I said, this isnt really an arguable point. But in order for you to cling to your bizarre libertarian ideology, you have to defend and maintain your point of view. I wont even get into the gun part because it makes you guys go off your rocker... you cant even get the concept about cars down - I cant even imagine what irrational posts would ensue if I rolled guns into it.

the analogy is moronic because the quality of guns these days is higher than it was years ago.

the number of people hurt because a gun fails is minuscule.

 

[Threegoofs]

he is claiming projections=data

if that was true-we never would have had most of the abominations foisted upon us by the New Deal after 1936

Well, thats an older graph. Looks like the data for 2014 are that they are equivalent, as projected. So the data looks like its working out.

Sorry I"m not scouring the net for updated data and sources that are acceptable to you.

(bracing for screaming about the source, screaming about more projections, and anticipating no contradictory data to be presented, because.... look what section we are in).

 

[Libertie76]

LOL. I look at and interpret data for a living. And I'm considered pretty damn good at it by most.

Actually, the most basic of the mandatory regulations were seat belt laws which became tighter and tighter from 1968 to the 90s, with mandatory three point belts put in, state seat belt use laws, massive educational campaigns, etc. Fatalities decreased proportionately.

I think its hilarious that you think the private sector is coming up with these things and then regulations are put into place AFTER that. It happens in some cases (note how backup cameras/sensors will be standard equipment in all cars in 2016), but the long list of safety regulations that are mandated by the feds are there because manufacturers wont do them unless forced to... because they add money to the cost of a car. You use Volvo as an example, and they certainly do lead the way with safety. but they dont drive innovations into Fiats until the government mandates it universally.

As I said, this isnt really an arguable point. But in order for you to cling to your bizarre libertarian ideology, you have to defend and maintain your point of view. I wont even get into the gun part because it makes you guys go off your rocker... you cant even get the concept about cars down - I cant even imagine what irrational posts would ensue if I rolled guns into it.

1. So technology advances with government, let's look at this rationally. Health care had advanced here in USA beyond most countries. Why? Because through competition we've advanced health technology. Now add that into the statistics of car mortality.

2. Can you prove that regulations without market competition have been the sole reason for added auto safety? The Fed has no constitutional authority over vehicles, the States do. The States implement more vehicle laws then the Fed. Note that back-up cameras and sensors were introduced privately first, what about seat? There were cars using seat belts before the legislation. This shows the private market was doing this added safety already before legislation

3. You refuse to answer the issue on added gun restrictions additional gun murders because it shows the direct connection between the two.

4. You insult people when you have become victim to inaccuracy and ineptitude in core concepts of free market Capitalisn. I hope you continue to read your data with the utmost bias because it really shows your lack of advancing knowledge with socio economic and political policy

 

[Threegoofs]

1. So technology advances with government, let's look at this rationally. Health care had advanced here in USA beyond most countries. Why? Because through competition we've advanced health technology. Now add that into the statistics of car mortality.

2. Can you prove that regulations without market competition have been the sole reason for added auto safety? The Fed has no constitutional authority over vehicles, the States do. The States implement more vehicle laws then the Fed. Note that back-up cameras and sensors were introduced privately first, what about seat? There were cars using seat belts before the legislation. This shows the private market was doing this added safety already before legislation

3. You refuse to answer the issue on added gun restrictions additional gun murders because it shows the direct connection between the two.

4. You insult people when you have become victim to inaccuracy and ineptitude in core concepts of free market Capitalisn. I hope you continue to read your data with the utmost bias because it really shows your lack of advancing knowledge with socio economic and political policy

Sigh. I reallyl cant do this anymore. Its futile. Health care is a different beast, and the regulations we have regarding, for example approval of drugs and devices are one of the primary reasons we have high quality health care.

Lives Saved by the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards

 

[Libertie76]

Sigh. I reallyl cant do this anymore. Its futile. Health care is a different beast, and the regulations we have regarding, for example approval of drugs and devices are one of the primary reasons we have high quality health care.

Lives Saved by the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards

WeRe Seatbelts, sensors, back up cameras etc etc made publicly or privately.

 

[Crimefree]

LOL. I look at and interpret data for a living. And I'm considered pretty damn good at it by most.

Just goes to show how easy it is to fool people.

Now lets see if you can apply honest evaluation and not agenda driven evaluation.

Vehicles don't have accidents any more than guns kill. The number of "accidents" that involves some component failure of the vehicle are very small.

The only way of reducing fatalities to to increase vehicle protection of the contents or possibly some form of human aid. ie break boosters, powers steering, abs breaking, better suspension, tyres.... Are you paying attention so far? None of this hinders driving or use in any way. They simply improve the product.

Now using fatalities is incorrect since the cause of vehicle accidents is not vehicle failure but DRIVER FAILURE and addressing the vehicle will not much change driver failure. So the test is vehicle ACCIDENTS not fatalities. Tell me how that number has changed over the years.

What is the number of firearm accidents? How do you want the product improved for a 0.000000005% failure?

 

[Libertie76]

Sigh. I reallyl cant do this anymore. Its futile. Health care is a different beast, and the regulations we have regarding, for example approval of drugs and devices are one of the primary reasons we have high quality health care.

Lives Saved by the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards

Vehicle standards and "Other Vehicle Safety Technologies"

Technologies that were what? Created privately in the market

 

[TurtleDude]

Vehicle standards and "Other Vehicle Safety Technologies"

Technologies that were what? Created privately in the market

how many firearms cause injuries due to faulty design or improper manufacturing standards?

 

[Libertie76]

how many firearms cause injuries due to faulty design or improper manufacturing standards?

I'm saying vehicle safety isn't due to regulations completely and that the market advancements in technology are the biggest factor.

Guns rarely if ever explode in people's hands and cause fatal wounds