Homosexuality - A choice?

And I do see a serious problem with researching ways to change peoples sexual orientation.

1) That time/money/effort should be devoted else where.
2) There is an implication then that being gay is "wrong" as I doubt they would research ways to make the straight, gay. They'd certainly never get government funding.
3) Our society is becoming to reliant on pills for everything. And everybody hates themselves. We are all so ashamed of who we are. We should instead offer people like rudeboy conseling to help him see there is nothing wrong with who he is, and that he can be happy and fulfilled as a homosexual.

A friend posted this from this month's issue of The Advocate on another forum website. I thought this would be appropriate for this thread.

106 years of "Born that way"
From 1899 until just last month, scientific evidence of the biological roots of sexual orientation has continued to grow

From The Advocate, July 5, 2005

1899
Germany’s pioneering researcher Magnus Hirschfeld writes that being gay or lesbian is biologically determined.

1991
A study of twins reveals that genes and biology are markers for homosexuality. Researchers find that 52% of identical twin brothers of gay men were also gay, compared with 22% of fraternal twins and just 11% of adoptive brothers.

1991
Simon LeVay, after studying the brains of dead gay and straight men, publishes a paper in Science arguing that homosexuality is biologically based. He later expands his ideas in the 1993 book The Sexual Brain.

1993
In a major study that spurs cultural battles, researchers say they have identified a gene pattern that determines male homosexuality. A National Cancer Institute geneticist suggests that a gay gene resides in the X chromosome, which men inherit from their mothers.

1995 & 2005
A 1995 NIH study focuses on male fruit flies that began mating with each other after their body chemistry was changed. In June 2005, scientists in Vienna report that a genetically altered female fruit fly attempted to mate with another female fruit fly instead of a male, suggesting sexual attraction is genetic.

1999
A University of Texas researcher finds that the tones produced by the inner ears of lesbians are weaker and not as numerous as those produced by straight women.

2000
Researchers find further evidence linking sexual orientation with birth order. Men with same-sex attraction seem more likely to be born later than straight brothers in families with multiple male children.

2003
Psychologists measure eye-blink reactions after subjecting gay and straight men and women to loud noises. The reactions of gay and straight members of each gender are found to be significantly different and linked to an area of the brain that determines sexuality. They conclude that a person’s sexual orientation is determined before birth.

2004
The same genes that make men gay may also make their female relatives more fertile. Researchers find that the moms, sisters, and maternal aunts of gay men often have significantly more children than the mean—and many of their offspring are gay or lesbian as well.

2005
A genome researcher in Chicago says he has found a group of genes, not a single “gay gene,” that strongly affect whether a man is homosexual. The University of Illinois at Chicago and the NIH scientists report having looked at the genes of 456 men, each of whom had at least two gay brothers, from 146 families. The finding that a variety of genes are common to most gay men echoes other recent gene research.
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january said:

And by the way, with a little social acceptance and less "cure" talk, ya'll could get the rights you're guaranteed under the constitution, and you could have a family!

No people aren't born bi-polar. It is something that's developed over time. I speak from personal experience on this one. When I eat healthy and excersice regularly, I'm fine. I'm cool, I'm collected. If I don't, I'm a freaking basket case. I don't recall going "manic" in nursery school.

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In the USA theres a thing called "Anti-Gay Adoption Law" which means gay couples cannot adopt children. Infact its already a law in Oaklahoma.

Yes, people are born bi-polar. My brother was born bi-polar at least that is what all his doctors say. I'm sure people can develop it but thats not the only way you can get it.

Re: Anti-Gay Adoption Law

Remember the part where I said "if society accepted"?

That law is based on intolerance and hate. It has absolutely no merit. I don't see them giving tests to straight people to see if they're "parent worthy"

As far as the bi-polar thing goes. It really depends who you ask. They really don't know. Has your brother had his thyroid checked? Apparently a lot of "bi-polar" disorders (especially those that surfaced young) were really just masked thyroid imbalances.

rudeboy said:

I'm sure this has been talked about but I just signed up.

is homosexuality a choice?

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I never chose to like girls.

I never chose to like red heads more than the others.

And so on until I'm blue in the face.

Based upon this, I see no reason to believe people who aren't straight chose "that".

alex said:

It is interesting that vauge believes it is conditioned. I did not condition my self to be gay no more than someone conditions themself to be straight. One of my first memories as a young boy was being attracted to a man. Do you honestly believe that a 9 year old can condition themself to be gay? Do 9 year olds have this kind of thought process? I was attracted to men before I even knew what gay was. How could I possibly condition myself to be gay then? I honestly believe that I am misunderstanding what you wrote. Could you please elaborate?

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Sure, please remember I did say condition themselves - not being conditioned. There is a huge difference.

In my opinion, somewhere along the way, you felt more comfortable about being around other males. Something happened that made you think this. Something happened and your choices in life pursuaded your sexual orientation. Was your mother abusive? Was the first erotic magazine you ever picked up a playgirl? Hypothetically of course.

NoobieDoobieDo said:

I never chose to like girls.

I never chose to like red heads more than the others.

And so on until I'm blue in the face.

Based upon this, I see no reason to believe people who aren't straight chose "that".

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This is no different than the homosexual question. Yes, somewhere along the way in your lifes adventures - red heads stood out for you. It is a deap core choice. Somehow, could be a conversation, could have been a joy ride - whatever it has conditioned you to enjoy female red heads more than blondes or brunettes.

Now, I personally believe that if nature took its course - i.e. Blue Lagoon type situtation then the male and female would automatically submit to the natural choice.

I personally enjoy larger women. I conditioned myself (somehow) for this. I can argue that its not a choice that I made - of course it is. Was it Freudian about my mother? As a young child did I enjoy the wamth of large breasts then submitted and didn't want or choose to accept or try other type of female? The questions are infinate.

It is not a switch that can be turned on/off.

I realised from about thirteen years of age that I was attracted to both sexes.For many years I attempted to live an exclusively heterosexual life and have two wonderful sons to show for that.
When I was thirty years old,after a series of painful relationships with women,I decided to explore the "other side of my nature".Shortly after,I met my partner and we have been together for nine years.
Although bisexuality was not a choice,the final decision to live my life as a totally gay man was.
I know I made the right decision and although I still find women attractive,I have no desire to return to my previous lifestyle and feel secure in a loving monogamous relationship,which to me is far more important.

Good for you, making a choice you feel comfortable with.


I think that whatever shapes our sexuality (and none of us really knows the answer to that), it is absolutely not a choice.

When I was very young, and starting to become sexually aware, being gay was not a good option, but that was what I was, and it meant some very painful years of self-hatred, fear of a lonely, isolated future etc.

Would I have chosen that? Of course not!

Naughty Nurse said:

Good for you, making a choice you feel comfortable with.


I think that whatever shapes our sexuality (and none of us really knows the answer to that), it is absolutely not a choice.

When I was very young, and starting to become sexually aware, being gay was not a good option, but that was what I was, and it meant some very painful years of self-hatred, fear of a lonely, isolated future etc.

Would I have chosen that? Of course not!

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That right there speaks volumes to me. I can not comprehend, given the massive abuse young (and old for that matter) gay people suffer, why anyone would "choose" to be gay.

I just do not see it as that "cut and dry". If it truely was not enjoyable or interesting then it wouldn't happen.

Why did Christians proclaim thier Chrisitanity years ago when they knew they were going to be persecuted or it could result in death? Logically, that would seem silly to do when the rest of the area or world thought differently.

Many would say that they were "born that way". No, they were conditioned to have that belief system. Then they self conditioned themselves to have that integrity and way of life. It's a choice.

vauge said:

I just do not see it as that "cut and dry". If it truely was not enjoyable or interesting then it wouldn't happen.

Why did Christians proclaim thier Chrisitanity years ago when they knew they were going to be persecuted or it could result in death? Logically, that would seem silly to do when the rest of the area or world thought differently.

Many would say that they were "born that way". No, they were conditioned to have that belief system. Then they self conditioned themselves to have that integrity and way of life. It's a choice.

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My guess is they did that because they whole heartedly believed that proclaiming their Christianity would lead to ever lasting life in heaven, renouncing it would lead to ever lasting life in hell. But that's just a guess.

I never chose my sexuality. I'm not sure if it was brought up already, but the APA agrees with me.

Is Sexual Orientation a Choice?

No, human beings can not choose to be either gay or straight. Sexual orientation emerges for most people in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. Although we can choose whether to act on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed.

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http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html

Are folks predestined to be attracted to blondes or short folks as well?

Pacridge said:

My guess is they did that because they whole heartedly believed that proclaiming their Christianity would lead to ever lasting life in heaven, renouncing it would lead to ever lasting life in hell. But that's just a guess.

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Obviously that did indeed play a factor, but only after they were conditioned to such and conditioned themselfs to believe that.

If one identical twin is gay and 50% of the time the other one is, while the adopted brothers only have an 11% concordance, that is not conditioning, that is genes.

I still...hm. Perhaps I am misinformed or just dumb. I cannot see how someone choosing to be gay affects anything more then them being born gay. Isn't this country all about making choices and being able to live with them in freedom?

Kelzie said:

If one identical twin is gay and 50% of the time the other one is, while the adopted brothers only have an 11% concordance, that is not conditioning, that is genes.

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I gotta be honest, did not look over the data and accepted your excellent analysis at value. About the twins, was there a difference in the % if they were seperated at birth or grew up seperately?

vauge said:

This is no different than the homosexual question. Yes, somewhere along the way in your lifes adventures - red heads stood out for you. It is a deap core choice.

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Is there any evidence that supports the theory that sexuality is a choice ?

NoobieDoobieDo said:

Is there any evidence that supports the theory that sexuality is a choice ?

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Is this not the same question as the actual topic?

Kelzie has presented some quality numbers. My guess is that lifestyle, economic level, urban/city, race, and religion were probably left out of the whole picture.

I think it would be interesting if more homosexuals were from urban or possibly larger cities. Equally it would be interesting if more homosexuals were from middle class than poverty. More Catholic than Protestant or Muslim. It might prove that we could be looking in the wrong direction for the answer. Just thinking out loud.

vauge said:

I gotta be honest, did not look over the data and accepted your excellent analysis at value. About the twins, was there a difference in the % if they were seperated at birth or grew up seperately?

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There was a huge study of seperated twins done recently, but I can't seem to find any numbers. I also found a mention of an Australian study with seperated twins that found 20-24% concordance, but no other info about it

Sorry if I am coming in late on this...


Homesexuality is not a choice...if it was a choice in our culture I am sure no one would choose to be gay with all the ignorance out there.

The person is born homesexual, it is progammed inside of them, just like how others are programmed straight, or bi-sexual. Its not something anyone can take a pill and suddenly like females, or if lesbian, males.


We need a $.02 smiley.

Andrew Stebbins

Homosexuality is a choice for some and not a choice for others. I honestly don't care whether or not it's a choice. It's a lifestyle any American should have the right to choose.

vauge said:

Obviously that did indeed play a factor, but only after they were conditioned to such and conditioned themselfs to believe that.

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How would an adolescent teenager "condition" themsevles or be conditioned to become gay? That one always made me a bit confused.

I know I was raised in a fairly concervative (fairly is an understatement) town, with only heterosexual role models, heterosexual parents, heterosexual friends. My parents had no friends who were openly homosexual, to my knowledge. No one in my family had ever been openly homosexual, again, to my knowledge.
It was a common stigma that homosexuals were either evil, bad, sick or just plain creepy and always something to stay away from...when on rare occassion it was ever brought up.
All girls were expected to grow up, marry, have babies...etc.
All boys were expected to grow up, marry, have a steady job which would provide for a family.

Yet the entire time I was growing up I had this nagging knowledge that I was different. I knew I didn't fit into this utopian ideal of the midwestern suburbs. I was attracted to girls. I had no interest in boys, never dated in high school. I was terrified someone would notice me maybe taking too long a glance at my teammate in the locker room or daydreaming at the wrong time.
So after high school I did date a guy or two. I did it to fit in, to attempt to seem "normal."
Later I actually married a man, thinking that somehow by doing so would magically transform my attraction to women and "cure" my awareness of my homosexual tendencies. I even thought that if I had a baby that all that would be behind me. That by being a mother and a wife I would become that ideal in which I was raised.
If anything I was conditioned to be straight.

But guess what?

I wasn't and no amount of lying or pretending was ever going to change that. No matter how much I wanted it. I was miserable, my marriage failed and I was nearly suicidal.
I had to force myself to come to terms with the harsh reality that I was infact and undeniably gay.
I knew that until I could accept myself for who I am/was that I would never be happy, that I would only be raising a child to learn to hate himself and to lie.
I was never conditioned to become or be gay. It was a long, hard, painful journey to self acceptance.

I just don't buy the BS of anyone being "conditioned" (ie brainwashed) into being gay. Trust me, it's not something any parent would knowingly condition their child to be.
Still to this day, even though attitudes are slowly changing, parents would NEVER knowingly "condition" their child to be social outcasts. Parents who actully love their child unconditionally only want their children to be happy, to be loved, to be compassionate, to have friends and lifelong relationships. Not lives of pain, self-hate, brutal beatings by bigots and religious zealots.
Acceptance is tough and many parents learn to accept and even support their children when those children realize they are gay. When those children find their voice and announce this to the one's who raised them, no matter how accepting the family really is, it's still a scary thing to do.
I just can't imagine parents who would "condition" their child to "become" gay. It's not something someone chooses. But learning to either accept or deny this reality...that's the choice.

Hey, Justine, thanks for posting your story. It's a very sad, but all too common one.


Absolutely nobody would choose to go through that.

galenrox said:

I'm pretty sure my mom wanted me (or my sister) to be gay. We live in an extrordinarily liberal town, and it's considered somewhat of a badge of honor to have a gay child, and to accept him/her for the way s/he is.

So if anything, I was conditioned to be gay, and I just love the women, can't help it, so I really don't buy the concept of being conditioned to be gay, because if it were true, why do I have a girlfriend? Why have I only done stuff with girls, and only been attracted to girls? Hmmm?

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Because you just haven't met the right man yet.

But, seriously, that just reinforces my conviction that you just can't alter a person's natural inclinations.

If sexuality could be influenced, we just wouldn't have any gay people, and i wouldn't be the fascinating person that i am today!

Perhaps I'm your right man?