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History's Greatest Generals

If Rommel had used his resources to build a better road system. He'd probably would be able to bring all of his forces to bare far, far faster than if he just put most of his defenses right along the coast

How on earth could he build a better road system?!?! He had the British on the run and had to follow them and not let up. Building a road takes time...
 
I agree it was a local war then, but you better believe the whole world was watching, since we invented modern warfare and the tools that go with it.

Disagree fully. The world barely knew what the US was at the time. As for "inventing modern warfare".. a bit of a stretch. Yes it was one of the first conflicts where rail-road was used as part of the logistics, but considering the time-line of rail-roads and the available wars, then it was pure luck.

As for the rest.. hardly. Artillery had been used since the Roman times and the cannon was used by Chinese in warfare long before Columbus "discovered" the American continent again.

I was talking about Belesarius and Justinian, not Grant and Sherman.

I am surprised you didn't cover the French and Indian War and the War of 1812.

Why should I...

To be precise, you said:

That is a very different statement. Insurgencies certainly don't have the upper hand on available force, which is why a brutal strategy works. It is much harder with protecting the population.

Where does it say "available force"? I said as you pointed out they have the upper hand, which is very true. They are far more mobile than conventional military forces, they can blend into the local population (especially if the population is sympathetic) and they know the lay of the land since it is their backyards they are defending. So my comments are 100% accurate. They might not have the biggest guns, but that is not the only and critical aspect of having "the upper hand". If so then the Chinese have the most powerful military in the world, since it is the largest with the most guns.. would you accept that comment? I would not.

Indeed, although I'll bet the Russians and the Chinese can get away with it.

Exactly

Fair enough, a bad example.

Okay.

I was thinking about Northern Ireland. Doing a deal that undercuts the insurgency is completely kosher was of dealing with the insurgency. I believe it is called "separating the population" in COIN literature.

But the insurgency was not defeated.
 

I agree, however certain generals provided the "extra" thing in tactics to make a big difference.


Does not change the fact that Russia had no regard for its troops.

You confused the KGB and NKVD, Pete. You really are proving my point about you relying on stereotypes.

There is no confusion. The NKVD became the KGB, my only fault is not naming it correctly in accordance to what they were called in WW2.


I disagree. In almost every major battle the Russians had material superiority and manpower superiority. The defining battle in 1943, the battle of Kursk, the Russians had more tanks, planes and troops than the Germans, who were also worn out after trying to break the Russians in an offensive.
 

You don't know what you are talking about. Have you ever heard of rifled artillery?

The average person in the street may not have known about the war, but every military officer and most political leaders knew what was up.

So sorry your empire is over. Move along now.



Nor is their ability to blend in and know the "lay of the land". I don't know how those items translate to the "upper hand" all of a sudden.

But the insurgency was not defeated.

Sure it was! They stopped their aggression, did they not?
 
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Does not change the fact that Russia had no regard for its troops.

Stop just spouting stereotypes. Western European generals in WW1 were far more willing to throw away lives for no reason at all. The Russian strategy may have been incredibly brutal in the early years, but it had a useful purpose.


[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_kursk]Battle of Kursk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Although somewhat outnumbered by the Russians, it hardly was by a decisive amount. Considering that the rest of the Allies fought with even greater material superiority in Western Europe, its hardly a criticism of the Soviets.
 
Ancient
Alexander the Great went undefeated, conquered a great Empire, and spread Greek influence across the world.

Pre Dark Ages

Attila the Hun used combination of military power, political gamemansship, and pure determination he brought the undisiplined Huns together to dominate powerful empires, and hosts of other "Barbarian" groups.

Middle Ages

Charlamagne using his military and political skills to create modern Europe.

Pre Modern

Napoleon for obvious reasons.

1900-1950

Patton cause I liked the movie
 

Way to not respond to my posts, I guess its because no one wants to debate the historian:lol:
 
You don't know what you are talking about. Have you ever heard of rifled artillery?

Of course I have. And if you managed to take your national pride glasses off for a bit then you would see I was right.

As for your railroad claim. During the Crimea war, rail was used by the Allies to transport munitions and supplies, plus the first hospital train. So the military leaders knew the benefits of rail road when the US civil war broke out.

As for rifles. The Brits had already used experimental versions almost a century earlier during the Napoleonic Wars. There was also rifles being used in the Crimea War. Was the modern rifle "rolled out" during the US civil war.. yes. But then again, it was the only war around.

The average person in the street may not have known about the war, but every military officer and most political leaders knew what was up.

So like 0.00000000001% of the population.. okay. And you think that the military officers and political leaders thought the US civil war was as important as something happening on their own doorstep?

So sorry your empire is over. Move along now.

Eh? Are you now claiming that the US is an Empire?

Nor is their ability to blend in and know the "lay of the land". I don't know how those items translate to the "upper hand" all of a sudden.

So you are saying that an occupying force vs an insurgency are equal in terms of knowledge of the land around them? Get real. Are you also saying that an insurgency force does not have an innate advantage by being able to blend into the local population and this is not an advantage???!?

Sure it was! They stopped their aggression, did they not?

Yes but because of a political solution not a military solution, which was my point. The "insurgents" got political access they did not have before, so they "won". From what I understood of what you wrote, you were implying that military might could end an insurgency, and I disagree with that .. at least in todays world.
 
Way to not respond to my posts, I guess its because no one wants to debate the historian

I was in hurry at the time, and didn't read everyone posts to see if they had responded to me. I will address them now.

That is false too. What ruined the Germans during the battle of Kursk-aside from the Russians knowing where the Germans were going to attack

True, but that discounts my points how?


Not true. OKH was responsible for Kursk, as Hitler didn't interfere much. In fact, the failure at Kursk was a driving reason why Hitler distrusted his general staff and took more and more personal command. Manstein and Guerdian didn't even want to fight at Kursk.

Actually you win war based on pure skill or because your enemy has gotten tired of war.

WW2 was won primarily by industrial production and attrition. There a many many ways to win wars, the skill of the generals is only one facet.

The Germans had good tactics even when they were in retreat of the Russians and right up to the battle of Kursk. Things changed after that because the Germans had no more material to fight a war with.

That A) doesn't address my points, B) isn't true. While Germany may have been at a material disadvantage, they certainly weren't out of materials in '43.


The German generals did make the call. While Manstein's plan may have been more successful, it wasn't guaranteed success either.
 
He came up with the critical part of the plan. Which was my point.

Which critical part was that?

Are you talking about the rehash of the Schlieffen Plan that Halder submitted to Hitler?



[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manstein_Plan"]The Manstein Plan[/ame]

Developed by German Lieutenant-General Erich von Manstein, the plan greatly modified the original 1939 versions by Franz Halder of the invasion plan known as Fall Gelb. One way to look at the Manstein Plan was that it was the German Army's answer to the French Army's Dyle Plan. Originally, in Aufmarschanweisung N°1, Fall Gelb, the German Army planned to push the Allied forces back through central Belgium to the Somme river, in northern France, not unlike the first phase of the famous Schlieffen Plan of the First World War
 
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How on earth could he build a better road system?!?! He had the British on the run and had to follow them and not let up. Building a road takes time...

I was refferring to before the invasion
 
Like it or not the US civil war was and still is a local war that very few people outside the US know much about.

Once again Peter you lack of knowledge on anything USA is showing.

If the US Civil War is not well know outside of the USA then why are there World Wide are there many US Civil War reacting Groups, plus with movies like God's and General's,Gettysburg and Ken Burns PBS show The US Civil War have made the US Civil War well know thru out the World.
 

Yes, I believe that Halder had a greater impact than Manstien on the over all plan. But yes you could call it a rehash of the old Schlieffen Plan somewhat.
 

So you are saying that just because PBS made a documentary then the US civil war is well known around the world? Ya everyone around the world dropped everything and went to the TV because the "gods" from America had produced another documentary on their glorious history and it was mandatory watching. Get real.

Your total lack of knowledge what happens outside of the USA yet again shows through. You claim I have a lack of knowledge of the USA? Funny how when people start to loose an argument they always throw that in ones face.. but hey, if I have such a "lack of knowledge" of the US, then prove me wrong. Prove to me that the rest of the world has an intimate knowledge of the US civil war....
 
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There appears to be a lack of European knowledge also.

Of course I have a lack of European history.. After all we are talking about 30+ countries with 3000+ years of history... your point being?
 
I was refferring to before the invasion

Eh? You are saying that Rommel should have not "invaded" but built roads? You do know that the fighting started long before Rommel arrived with his Afrika Corps right? That the British invaded Libya (then under Italian rule) first right?

So you are saying the first thing that Rommel should have done is to make roads in the areas he controlled with the Italians, and then attack take more land, then make more roads, and then attack again?.. I see..:roll:
 

They have a point here. I studied it twice in high-school.
 
Yes, I believe that Halder had a greater impact than Manstien on the over all plan.

What????How in the hell did you come to that conclusion?Hitler rejected Halder's plan....It was never used.
 

I think we're talking about two differant campigns. I'm saying that he should've built a better road network in northern France before D-Day to allow his army to move around better to counter an invasion, instead of spreading his forces piecemeal
 
Of course I have a lack of European history.. After all we are talking about 30+ countries with 3000+ years of history... your point being?

I never said you have a lack of European history.
 
I think we're talking about two differant campigns. I'm saying that he should've built a better road network in northern France before D-Day to allow his army to move around better to counter an invasion, instead of spreading his forces piecemeal

oh, okay. You mean an autobann?
 
Generals..... I assume that this does not limit the list to land commanders? If not then

Nelson
Hugh Dowding/Keith Park
Wellington
Napoleon
Alexander
Hannibal
Guderian
Lee
 
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