Hey defenders of killing unborn children.

[Fantasea]

The spinal cord ends up in the brain stem which connects tho the thalamus and then through the thalamocortical tract connects with the brain's cortes. The input enters in the cortex of the parietal lobe (top middle/back), gets processed into sensation and responses are then generated by the "motor strip" (top middle/front). The final connection of the thalamocortical tract to the cortex of the parietal lobe occurs at the end of the 26th week of pregnancy.
Not much. Without input, there is no evaluation or conscious response, only reflexes. The brain does no more processing than a computer that is turned off. Once signals reach the parietal lobe, processing begins. (Only exception are cranial nerves I and II that are not going through the brainstem/thalamus "switchboard.")

Thank you very much for the lesson in the neurological aspect of the development of an unborn child.

However, what does this have to do with the fact that a human unborn child has been permitted to escape the abortionists vacuum cleaner or butcher's tools for the first six months of its life? It still has a third of the way to go and, as we all know, in the US, a zygote has only one chance in three in exiting the birth canal alive.

Please spare me the philosophical discussion about brain-waves, sentience, and the rest of the factually unsupported nonsense about how while all occupants of the womb are living humans, some are persons and some are non-persons who have no rights, especially the right to continue to live.

 

[Busta]

It is possible, but I have never seen data on this. But yes, the nerve from the back of the eye does run back to the occipital lobe (back of the head) without touching any other system. It is still, however, made up of 3 neurons, and I am not sure when those connections mature. Likewise, some autonomic (not under willful control) nerves that run through the thalamus are modulating the signal, and as such, this modulation also is dependent on the thalamocortical tract connecting at the end of the 26th week of pregnancy.

The other nerve, Cranial nerve I is responsible for the sense of smell. It's connection to the brain is rather odd and may be functioning earlier as well.
Well, "brain wave" is a rather specific pattern that involves the brainstem-cortex-brainstem interactions. As such, there are no real brain waves before the connection of the thalamocortical tract connects (again, this is at the end of the 26th week of pregnancy). before then, the electrical impulses are random and do not represent organized processing (And they are not real "brain waves").

Very informative. Thanx a bunch (for both responses).

 

[tecoyah]

Thank you very much for the lesson in the neurological aspect of the development of an unborn child.


Please spare me the philosophical discussion about brain-waves, sentience, and the rest of the factually unsupported nonsense about how while all occupants of the womb are living humans, some are persons and some are non-persons who have no rights, especially the right to continue to live.

You know....I told myself not to reply to you anymore....but I just cant help it....heh. You keep asking for someone to post a rebuttal to the crap you call fact, and every freakin time they do.....you dont want to hear it. Jesus woman....have you ever even read a damn book. As for your new tangent....concerning the mental effects of abortion....I recommend you take a look at a little something called PPD....Post Pardem Depression, because according to Your own logic (if it can be called that), no one should have babies....they may become unhappy afterward.
I will not accuse you of Lyiing, because it is obvious you actually believe what you spew.....but just because someone thinks the voice inside is God....dont mean they shouldnt be sedated.

 

[ngdawg]

Nevertheless, folks in the mental health field are raking in big bucks from renting couch time to mothers of aborted children who complain of ailments ranging from mild depression to suicidal tendencies.

Traffic in and out of mental health clinics and psychiatrists' offices is at an all time high. So is the sale of anti-depressant prescription drugs.

According to you, it would probably be mere coincidence, right?

Until you come up with some links to back your hypothesis regarding the increase of usage of mental health offices and anti-depressant drugs, you're blowing hot air. Where DO you GET this stuff? Ever consider a career in fictional writing? By the way, of the four women I know personally who have undergone abortions, only one ever used a psychiatrist...to find out she was gay. So right there, you're batting, oh.......zero.

 

[tryreading]

Likewise, the same right must be made manifest more locally in each citizen. If a woman becomes pregnant and the introduction of the eventual child is a detriment to her life, then she has the right to not be pregnant. Like with the death penalty, the guidelines for abortion must be strict and definitive. The option of abortion must be exercised within a certain time frame...that being in the development before any sentience is present. The woman seeking the abortion must complete a certain number of educational and counseling hours before the abortion is made available. I am debating this idea with myself currently, but I also am coming to believe that the number of abortions should be kept in a database and that the number of abortions in a lifetime should be limited to two in order to curb abortion being used as birth control.

How must these requirements be enforced?

 

[ngdawg]

Actually, some of those suggestions are already in place. A woman who goes to get an abortion is supposed to be counselled, given literature, etc. Not to deter the procedure, really, but to make sure she is aware of her decision and what to expect as a result.
It is recommended that a woman NOT undergo more than two procedures and doctors will counsel to that as well.

 

[Fantasea]

You know....I told myself not to reply to you anymore....but I just cant help it....heh.

Sorry to learn of your apparent lack of self-control. I understand there's a lot of that going around these days. Perhaps there's a group you could join. You may wish to visit the website of The American Self-Help Group Clearing House at: http://www.selfhelpgroups.org/ . I understand they list groups for more than a thousand "conditions".

You keep asking for someone to post a rebuttal to the crap you call fact, and every freakin time they do.....you dont want to hear it. Jesus woman....have you ever even read a damn book.

Sure. Where do you think I learned how to expose all the nonsense these posters post.

As for your new tangent....concerning the mental effects of abortion....I recommend you take a look at a little something called PPD....Post Pardem Depression, because according to Your own logic (if it can be called that), no one should have babies....they may become unhappy afterward.

Being depressed because one has a child is not the same as being depressed because one has aborted her child. As time passes, the former disappears as the child brings love and joy to the mother. Sadly, with the passage of time, the latter intensifies as feelings of guilt haunt the mother. I read this in one of those "damn book(s)" you asked about.

I will not accuse you of Lyiing, because it is obvious you actually believe what you spew.....

Thank you. You are most kind.

but just because someone thinks the voice inside is God....dont mean they shouldnt be sedated.

I've never heard the voice of God. However, I am haunted by the silent screams of the more than four thousand unborn children who were aborted in the US this very day.

 

[Fantasea]

Until you come up with some links to back your hypothesis regarding the increase of usage of mental health offices and anti-depressant drugs, you're blowing hot air. Where DO you GET this stuff? Ever consider a career in fictional writing? By the way, of the four women I know personally who have undergone abortions, only one ever used a psychiatrist...to find out she was gay. So right there, you're batting, oh.......zero.

I'm sure you will concede that a politically correct website is not the place for me to shop for corroboration, right?

Here's something I came across that is excerpted from: http://www.rightgrrl.com/pas.html

"How those who support abortion on demand can continue to deny the existence of post-abortion syndrome (PAS), is an easily answered question. If it can be proven that an abortion hurts the mother as well as the child, then the claim that "abortion helps women" becomes a lie. The last thing the choice camp wants us to know is that, from conception, the fate of the mother is so intertwined with that of the child, that hurting one will automatically hurt the other.

On a purely physical level, the mother's body begins to prepare for the birth of this child, from the moment of conception. To terminate the pregnancy abruptly, throws the entire hormonal system of the woman into disarray. It is for this reason that many believe that abortion leads to an increased risk for female cancer.

On the psychological level, no matter how the woman may say she feels about her pregnancy, there is a bond that begins to form. Few women truly believe that the fetus is nothing more that a lump of tissue with no identity. To admit, even in the back of her mind, that she is carrying a baby, is to admit that an abortion would kill her child. Again, while relief may be the first reaction to the abortion, sooner or later the woman is going to start feeling the guilt and pain of being a party to the death of her child."

 

[Fantasea]

Actually, some of those suggestions are already in place. A woman who goes to get an abortion is supposed to be counselled, given literature, etc. Not to deter the procedure, really, but to make sure she is aware of her decision and what to expect as a result.
It is recommended that a woman NOT undergo more than two procedures and doctors will counsel to that as well.

Yeah, right.

Actually the requirement is that the woman be "offered" literature, "if she wants to see it".

If she has made it through the door, she doesn't want to be dissuaded and the aboratorium doesn't want to lose the money it will get for killing that kid.

 

[tryreading]

Yeah, right.

Actually the requirement is that the woman be "offered" literature, "if she wants to see it".

If she has made it through the door, she doesn't want to be dissuaded and the aboratorium doesn't want to lose the money it will get for killing that kid.

Can't make her take the literature.

To rebut your 10% homicide conviction rate, here is some U.S. Department of Justice Data:

1994 0.0896 murders per 1000 population
1994 0.0589 murder conviction per 1000
1994 0.0564 murder incarceration per 1000
(The latest complete data I could find on their site)

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/cfjs02.htm

 

[Busta]

...but I also am coming to believe that the number of abortions should be kept in a database and that the number of abortions in a lifetime should be limited to two in order to curb abortion being used as birth control.

As a matter of law, on what grounds would We be able to establish the arbitrated line at 2 abortions? I mien, it sounds like a good idea, but what happens the first time there is a young teenager who became pregnant by her relative or a rape for the 3rd. time?

Would not such a law, in some way, establish a ZEF's right to life; so long as that ZEF was it's mother's 3rd pregnancy?

Also, what civil or criminal penalties for acquiring a 3rd. abortion would you recommend?

 

[Busta]

Thank you very much for the lesson in the neurological aspect of the development of an unborn child.

However, what does this have to do with the fact that a human unborn child has been permitted to escape the abortionists vacuum cleaner or butcher's tools for the first six months of its life? It still has a third of the way to go and, as we all know, in the US, a zygote has only one chance in three in exiting the birth canal alive.

Please spare me the philosophical discussion about brain-waves, sentience, and the rest of the factually unsupported nonsense about how while all occupants of the womb are living humans, some are persons and some are non-persons who have no rights, especially the right to continue to live.

He was just answering my questions. It's cool.

 

[steen]

This argument is used because people cannot face the simple fact that a child is the only thing that can come from these names.

At the developmental stage when the stage "child" begins, yes. And that is at birth.

The defenders of killing unborn babies

"Unborn babies"? Ah, like "undead corpses? Are you an undead corpse?

Maybe because killing an unborn child is the very same as killing an adult convicted for murder or killing a person by defending oneself.

No, it isn't.

The end result of defending oneself by deadly force is the death of a human.
The end result of executing a convicted murder is the death of a human.
The end result of killing an unborn child by abortion is the death of a human.

"a human" connotates an individual biological entity. The embryo is not an individual biological entity, and neither is the fetus. So your claim is flat-out wrong.

 

[steen]

Nevertheless, folks in the mental health field are raking in big bucks from renting couch time to mothers of aborted children who complain of ailments ranging from mild depression to suicidal tendencies.

There are no such things as "aborted children," your revisionist linguistic hyperbole none withstanding. That aside, your claim is an outright lie, as there is no huge group of women seeking counseling after abortions. On the other hand, there is big money in post-partum deprerssion and post-partum psychosis.

Traffic in and out of mental health clinics and psychiatrists' offices is at an all time high. So is the sale of anti-depressant prescription drugs.

But not due to abortion, your lies and deceptions none withstanding.

According to you, it would probably be mere coincidence, right?

It means that correlation is not causation, even though prolifers like to lie and claim it is. I am not surprised, as so many prolifers lie so much all the time; you are a clear example of that per my many documentations of your lies.

 

[steen]

Thank you very much for the lesson in the neurological aspect of the development of an unborn child.

Erm, you must be illiterate, as that is not what it was per there being no children before birth. It was a lesson in neurodevelopment of a fetus.

However, what does this have to do with the fact that a human unborn child

There is no more such a thing that there are "human undead corpses." Please stop the deceptions of your revisionist linguistic hyperbole.

Please spare me the philosophical discussion about brain-waves, sentience,

Actually, that is scientific, not philosophical. But then, I don't expect you to understand the difference, as you so many times have spewed philosophical opinions under the lying disguise of claiming it to be science. That is what we have come to expect, after all. That birds fly, fish swim, and prolifers lie. It seems a natural state of affairs as people like you continuously demonstrate and confirm.

 

[steen]

Being depressed because one has a child is not the same as being depressed because one has aborted her child.

And the mental health bacxkground qualifying you to make this claim is from....

Oh yeah, you made it up just like all the other incessant lies you spew.

As time passes, the former disappears as the child brings love and joy to the mother.

Not always and not guaranteed.

Sadly, with the passage of time, the latter intensifies as feelings of guilt haunt the mother.

You are lying. The research I cited above DIRECTLY DISPROVE that claim. Please sttop your incessant lies.

I read this in one of those "damn book(s)" you asked about.

Ah, a prolife lie source. No surprise there. So many prolifers lie, and so many of their sources do as well.

Thank you. You are most kind. I've never heard the voice of God. However, I am haunted by the silent screams of the more than four thousand unborn children who were aborted in the US this very day.

Really? "Silent Screams"? And that sounds like..... Oh, I get it. Auditory hallycinations. Psychosis. Why am I not surprised!

 

[steen]

from: http://www.rightgrrl......

Oh, yeah: "Rightgrrl is a meeting ground for young women who share a few common ideas -- namely pro-life and conservative political thinking -- "
Moire biased prolife lie crap.

I don't give a damn about what prolife liars lie about mental health for.

 

[Felicity]

"Unborn babies"? Ah, like "undead corpses? Are you an undead corpse?

Dead is a state, a condition--one is either dead or alive--even you have admitted that it is human life that is in the womb, so...anyway...yes, just as before I was born, I was a pre-born person, and just as I am not dead yet I am a pre-dead person. As it is ridiculous to identify oneself as "pre-dead," it should be just as ridiculous to have to identify the person in the womb as pre-born. The problem lies in the fact that it is certain that all people will die, but it is not certain that all will be born. That's why we have to have a term for it.

connotates an individual biological entity. The embryo is not an individual biological entity, and neither is the fetus. So your claim is flat-out wrong.

What is it then?
(BTW—the word is “connotes”—there is no such word as “connotates.”)


it's individual...
in•di•vid•u•al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nd-vj-l)
adj.

Of or relating to an individual, especially a single human: individual consciousness.
By or for one person: individual work; an individual portion.
Existing as a distinct entity; separate: individual drops of rain.

Marked by or expressing individuality; distinctive or individualistic: an individual way of dressing.
Special; particular: Each variety of melon has its individual flavor and texture.
Serving to identify or set apart: “There was nothing individual about him except a deep scar... across his right cheek” (Rebecca West).



it's biological....

bi•o•log•i•cal ( P ) Pronunciation Key (b-lj-kl) also bi•o•log•ic (-ljk)
adj.
Of, relating to, caused by, or affecting life or living organisms: biological processes such as growth and digestion.
Having to do with biology.
Related by blood or genetic lineage: the child's biological parents; his biological sister.

it's an entity
en•ti•ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nt-t)
n. pl. en•ti•ties
Something that exists as a particular and discrete unit: Persons and corporations are equivalent entities under the law.
The fact of existence; being.
The existence of something considered apart from its properties.
(Dictionary.com)

 

[Fantasea]

There are no such things as "aborted children," your revisionist linguistic hyperbole none withstanding. That aside, your claim is an outright lie, as there is no huge group of women seeking counseling after abortions. On the other hand, there is big money in post-partum deprerssion and post-partum psychosis.
But not due to abortion, your lies and deceptions none withstanding.
It means that correlation is not causation, even though prolifers like to lie and claim it is. I am not surprised, as so many prolifers lie so much all the time; you are a clear example of that per my many documentations of your lies.

... :shock:... ... :2funny:​

 

[Fantasea]

There are no such things as "aborted children," your revisionist linguistic hyperbole none withstanding. That aside, your claim is an outright lie, as there is no huge group of women seeking counseling after abortions. On the other hand, there is big money in post-partum deprerssion and post-partum psychosis.
But not due to abortion, your lies and deceptions none withstanding.
It means that correlation is not causation, even though prolifers like to lie and claim it is. I am not surprised, as so many prolifers lie so much all the time; you are a clear example of that per my many documentations of your lies.

:bs... :bs... :bs​

 

[Fantasea]

Erm, you must be illiterate, as that is not what it was per there being no children before birth. It was a lesson in neurodevelopment of a fetus.
There is no more such a thing that there are "human undead corpses." Please stop the deceptions of your revisionist linguistic hyperbole.
Actually, that is scientific, not philosophical. But then, I don't expect you to understand the difference, as you so many times have spewed philosophical opinions under the lying disguise of claiming it to be science. That is what we have come to expect, after all. That birds fly, fish swim, and prolifers lie. It seems a natural state of affairs as people like you continuously demonstrate and confirm.

:screwy ...:spin: ...:screwy​

 

[sissy-boy]

Why do people that defend abortion get so mad when people say they have a right to defend themselves against rape, robbery, and murder? Why is killing a person that is going to rape, rob, or murder you so wrong when the defenders of abortion chant killing an unborn child is ok? Why is killing an unborn child ok and killing a convicted murderer wrong?

You need to KNOW that abortion is a sacred rite that will NEVER be taken away. It has existed as long has man has and will continue to no matter what the Christian bigots do.

Abortion As A Sacred Right

by Nevada Kerr

Abortion is a sacred rite that has been performed by women for centuries. The midwife, healer, shaman or witch is the holy abortionist. She has been hounded by christians for millennia. It is time for this witch-hunt to end!

With the help of the holy abortionist, in the form of the death goddess, the crone, or the medusa, we will overcome this new onslaught by the christian fanatics. Century after century these zealots try to impose their feeble morality on women. They claim that god has sovereign power over issues of life and death.

This is far from the truth. Women as the goddess incarnate in all her forms and in particular in the shape of the hag, shrew, or fury who devours life in her gaping mouth with her sharp fangs, has sovereign power over issues of life and death. Let us not forget that when she decides her children are fated to die, so be it! She is the mother of necessity. She is the groomless bride who traverses the bridge between the worlds and carries the souls of aborted children to the other side. Like Lilith, she mercifully robs them of their breath. We are all on loan here and the death goddess must protect her own interests! No one can argue with the whirlwind who sweeps the doomed away! Her word is law!

Today we hope to invoke the wisdom and justice of the sacred abortionist, and in defense of women we scoff at these hysterical christians! All hope for an overpopulated planet is born in the darkness of her lethal grasp! Praise loudly the victorious destroyer of unwanted and unneeded children! She who has the right of jurisdiction owns the souls of this earthly tribe! You may shudder, shake, and tremble! These are appropriate responses. Fear, awe, dread, and reverence are what the death mother has come to expect! With sickle in hand, she seizes the sated and weary souls of the damned!

These christians here today only make her job more difficult than it needs to be. Like a goblin-mother, she who suckles the stillborn babe also comforts the mad and possessed. Beloved and misguided christians--know that you are vigilantly watched over by the ever-present destroyer who will someday swoop down upon you and gracefully carry you away! The nature of desire, the truth of life itself has always been death--the all-seeing one who demands responsibility from those who procreate and overpopulate this overburdened planet.

Do not misunderstand! She means to do harm! You can invoke your insane and giddy god all day long. It will do no good. He has no power here! She who whets your appetite with sexual pleasures also whets the knife. She grasps, binds, and enthralls! The holy abortionist only summons those who are deserving of the call! She is free from imperfection! Like husks removed from grain, the unborn are hers! She marks her territory, a boundary these christians here today have crossed over.

These misguided christians think they can strike a bargain with the grave, shriek at the whirlwind, bellow and screech at the all-devouring one. The fearful one, the holy abortionist is deaf to their pleading and will win in the end!

There is in all things a pattern that is part of our universe. It has symmetry, elegance, and grace--those qualities you find always in that which the true artist captures. You can find it in the turning of the seasons, in the way sand trails along a ridge, in the branch clusters of the creosote bush or the pattern of its leaves. We try to copy these patterns in our lives and our society, seeking the rhythms, the dances, the forms that comfort. Yet, it is possible to see peril in the finding of ultimate perfection. It is clear that the ultimate pattern contains its own fixity. In such perfection, all things move towards death.


-from "The Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan

 

[jallman]

... :shock:...​

Well, I see you have finally degenerated to this. The fact still remains, my friend, that you have yet to show any fact that doesnt have a conflicting scientific point. Your constant opining about :2bigcry: "the poor unborn baby":2bigcry: is just opinion which you sometimes do and sometimes dont back up with pro-life lie sites. I backed out of this debate a while back so that I could look at the issue further, and I have come to see that yes, most of your sources have been pure lie...now dont get me wrong, I dont think you are a liar, and I appreciate your dedication to what you see as a moral crusade worthy of the passion you put into it. However, your passion does not override fact, no matter how many ways and times you choose to dismiss it when presented to you.

 

[George_Washington]

Well, I see you have finally degenerated to this. The fact still remains, my friend, that you have yet to show any fact that doesnt have a conflicting scientific point. Your constant opining about :2bigcry: "the poor unborn baby":2bigcry: is just opinion which you sometimes do and sometimes dont back up with pro-life lie sites. I backed out of this debate a while back so that I could look at the issue further, and I have come to see that yes, most of your sources have been pure lie...now dont get me wrong, I dont think you are a liar, and I appreciate your dedication to what you see as a moral crusade worthy of the passion you put into it. However, your passion does not override fact, no matter how many ways and times you choose to dismiss it when presented to you.

Well, I for one have at least tried to to support my pro-life position with scientific fact. The way I look at it is, the fetus isn't a life yet but it is developing into one and in a matter of time, it will be. Meaning that I feel that we shouldn't let time get in the way of a developing life, so to speak. I just think that because the fetus will be a human life in a time period that is extremely short compared to how much longer the Earth has to survive, we should let it fully develop because it could be a valuable member of society one day. I've heard that there statistics which suggest that most unwanted babies end up turning to crime and such. But see that is where I believe we need to work harder to make sure that doesn't happen, whether it be creating more social programs for children like this or whatever it takes.

 

[Fantasea]

Well, I see you have finally degenerated to this. The fact still remains, my friend, that you have yet to show any fact that doesnt have a conflicting scientific point. Your constant opining about :2bigcry: "the poor unborn baby":2bigcry: is just opinion which you sometimes do and sometimes dont back up with pro-life lie sites. I backed out of this debate a while back so that I could look at the issue further, and I have come to see that yes, most of your sources have been pure lie...now dont get me wrong, I dont think you are a liar, and I appreciate your dedication to what you see as a moral crusade worthy of the passion you put into it. However, your passion does not override fact, no matter how many ways and times you choose to dismiss it when presented to you.

I have repeatedly asked for aome authoritative refutation of the following, but have received none. Can you supply some?

"WHEN DOES LIFE BEGIN?"​

On April 23-24, 1981, a Senate Judiciary Subcommittee held hearings on this very question? Appearing to speak on behalf of the scientific community was a group of internationally-known geneticists and biologists who all affirmed that human life begins at conception - and they told their story with a profound absence of opposing testimony.

Dr. Micheline M. Mathews-Roth, Harvard medical School, gave confirming testimony, supported by references from over 20 embryology and other medical textbooks that human life began at conception.

Dr. McCarthy de Mere, medical doctor and law professor, University of Tennessee, testified: "The exact moment of the beginning of personhood and of the human body is at the moment of conception."

Dr. Hymie Gordon, Chairman, Department of Genetics at the Mayo Clinic, added: "By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception."

"Father of Modern Genetics" Dr. Jerome Lejeune told the lawmakers: "To accept the fact that after fertilization has taken place a new human has come into being is no longer a matter of taste or opinion ... it is plain experimental evidence."

Dr. Alfred Bongiovanni, University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, concluded, "I am no more prepared to say that these early stages represent an incomplete human being than I would be to say that the child prior to the dramatic effects of puberty ... is not a human being."

Dr. Landrum Shettles, sometimes called the "Father of In Vitro Fertilization" notes, "Conception confers life and makes that life one of a kind.”