Here is a what if to ponder

[CLAX1911]

You know, it's possible to think that two people were wrong at the same time.

No it's not if you don't think George Floyd was a perfect angel and that Derek ch... I'm not going to attempt to spell his last name, was plotting to kill George Floyd all hours of the night and that the Minneapolis Police department is ruled by the ku Klux Klan, you absolutely approve of everything Derek did.

See anybody that disagrees with me holds the exact opposite position there's no other positions that's not possible.

People are either evil or pure.

 

[MaryP]

Mostly people are largely absorbed with their own concerns not stereotyping others so it's really forgotten in everyday life

Are you saying stereotyping doesn't happen every minute of every day? LOL

 

[lurchadams]

After the big trial was over, an officer came in to take Chauvin away. He calmly turned around and put his hands behind his back to be hand cuffed.

Tell me this, where would Floyd be today if he had done the same thing.

All of this anti police crap starts when some stupid criminal like Floyd decides to attack, fight, or try to kill the police.

Any logical answers to this?

Blame the victim. Black people are less than human to you and all who approve of what you just said.

 

[CLAX1911]

Are you saying stereotyping doesn't happen every minute of every day? LOL

No I'm saying what I typed.

I'm only ever saying what I typed you don't ever have to ask me this question again, unless a straw man fallacy is your debate style.

 

[lurchadams]

it appears we may have a poster who is okay with a government official killing a citizen.

He and all who "liked" his post.

 

[CLAX1911]

Blame the victim. Black people are less than human to you and all who approve of what you just said.

Well if you play stupid games you win stupid prizes.

Resisting arrest is a stupid game and more white people get killed by the police than black people. So no virtue points for that virtue signal.

 

[TurtleDude]

it appears we may have a poster who is okay with a government official killing a citizen.

what a ridiculous lie. what the poster is saying is this-and the facts support it-almost everyone who has died as a result of a confrontation with the police, did so because they did not initially comply with the officer's orders. From the dope dealer who a U of Cincinnati cop shot to death to the mope in Missouri (Brown) who was shot after being told to stop several times, to Floyd, almost everyone fought back or refused to comply. That doesn't justify -in all cases-the police officers shooting them or otherwise harming them, but I bet if Floyd had immediately complied, he'd be just another mope that most people would not have heard about

 

[Felis Leo]

I think the picture was body weight on his left knee which was on George Floyd's neck how did that stop his heart, he didn't asphyxiate. He died of cardiac arrest. I would let him do it to me just to prove the point that it doesn't stop you from breathing George Floyd did not die of asphyxiation he died of cardiac arrest.

That is not what the medical examination CLAX1911:

According to the county medical examiner, Floyd's death was deemed a homicide and that he died of cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.

And indeed, he was an unhealthy drug addict whose heart was already strained and damaged from drug use. However, the treatment and depravity of Derek Chauvin's use of force against George Floyd would have killed a normally healthy man. Few people can survive having one's neck compressed with a knee against it and bodyweight applied.

And just an aside, CLAX, I find these defenses of Chauvin rather strange. As though a police officer putting a knee on top of a man's kneck is the most normal restraint in the world and that we should set that aside and focus on Floyd's ill health as being the main culprit. This is the equivalent of a scenario in which if Derek Chauvin had cut George Floyd's throat with a bowie knife, people started pointing to the fact that the Floyd family had a history of hemophilia as the cause of Floyd's death.

 

[CLAX1911]

what a ridiculous lie. what the poster is saying is this-and the facts support it-almost everyone who has died as a result of a confrontation with the police, did so because they did not initially comply with the officer's orders. From the dope dealer who a U of Cincinnati cop shot to death to the mope in Missouri (Brown) who was shot after being told to stop several times, to Floyd, almost everyone fought back or refused to comply. That doesn't justify -in all cases-the police officers shooting them or otherwise harming them, but I bet if Floyd had immediately complied, he'd be just another mope that most people would not have heard about

There's some distrust for the police and I understand why.

 

[TurtleDude]

There's some distrust for the police and I understand why.

sure, but fighting with the police on the street is one of the most stupid things you can do. It is up there with challenging the authority of a captain on a warship in the middle of a battle or a judge in his courtroom during a trial.

 

[Felis Leo]

Well if you play stupid games you win stupid prizes.

Resisting arrest is a stupid game and more white people get killed by the police than black people. So no virtue points for that virtue signal.

And cops who murder white citizens should be tried and imprisoned too, CLAX1911. I do not have a racial animus or believe that some ethnic groups should be allowed to suffer police brutality and others should remain immune. The fact that Philip Brailsford is walking free after having murdered Daniel Shaver is a travesty. He should have been branded with the Mark of Cain upon his brow. Police are public servants. They should not be treated with the deference afforded to Medieval knights who could summarily execute uppity peasants who they thought disrespected them.

 

[MaryP]

No I'm saying what I typed.

I'm only ever saying what I typed you don't ever have to ask me this question again, unless a straw man fallacy is your debate style.

Mostly people are largely absorbed with their own concerns not stereotyping others so it's really forgotten in everyday life

Seems to me you're dismissing stereotyping as a concern. That's what you said--people are too busy for that. It has nothing to do with a strawman. It's sitting right there.

 

[CLAX1911]

That is not what the medical examination CLAX1911:

yeah those medical examiners never know what they're doing do they.

None of that evidence really matters it's not really evidence

According to the county medical examiner, Floyd's death was deemed a homicide and that he died of cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.

No shit.

If you have heart problems resisting arrest may be more dangerous for you.

And indeed, he was an unhealthy drug addict whose heart was already strained and damaged from drug use.

play stupid games win stupid prizes.

However, the treatment and depravity of Derek Chauvin's use of force against George Floyd would have killed a normally healthy man. Few people can survive having one's neck compressed with a knee against it and bodyweight applied.

I will need more proof than an AP opinion blog or a single expert opinion because I've seen this happen and never seen anyone die.

And just an aside, CLAX, I find these defenses of Chauvin rather strange.

I know I've been here long enough anyone who doesn't agree and locked up with you is defending the other side there's no possible opinions at all between yours and the opposite of yours.

Forgive me if I don't take you seriously when you say ridiculous nonsense.

As though a police officer putting a knee on top of a man's kneck is the most normal restraint in the world and that we should set that aside and focus on Floyd's ill health as being the main culprit.

when did you get your police training?

This is the equivalent of a scenario in which if Derek Chauvin had cut George Floyd's throat with a bowie knife, people started pointing to the fact that the Floyd family had a history of hemophilia as the cause of Floyd's death.

good morning you get murder in the First?

 

[CLAX1911]

Mostly people are largely absorbed with their own concerns not stereotyping others so it's really forgotten in everyday life

Seems to me you're dismissing stereotyping as a concern. That's what you said--people are too busy for that. It has nothing to do with a strawman. It's sitting right there.

When you say show you're saying and then you say some stupid nonsense that's not what I was saying that's exactly what a straw man is.

You want to attack the stupid argument you made up and pretend as though it's mine.

I wish people would understand the basics of logic before they started discussing things on a debate forum.

 

[CLAX1911]

And cops who murder white citizens should be tried and imprisoned too, CLAX1911. I do not have a racial animus or believe that some ethnic groups should be allowed to suffer police brutality and others should remain immune.

So conviction equals guilt?

The fact that Philip Brailsford is walking free after having murdered Daniel Shaver is a travesty. He should have been branded with the Mark of Cain upon his brow.

so in this case the justice system is flawed?

Which is it if you're convicted you're guilty or if you're convicted or not convicted it doesn't necessarily mean you're guilty or not guilty?

Police are public servants. They should not be treated with the deference afforded to Medieval knights who could summarily execute uppity peasants who they thought disrespected them.

absolutely agree there needs to be some oversight, some sort of auditing for police agencies and I would go farther and say they should be auditing prison staff as well.

If you want to talk him out adjustments to policing and maybe changing a few things I think that's an excellent discussion to have. And what happened to George Floyd what happened to Brianna Taylor Daniel shaver and no doubt countless people in the prisons is the reason why.

I don't think coercing our justice system with threats of riots is a good solution and I'm not so sure that's not what happened.

 

[Felis Leo]

@CLAX1911 , I do not know how to break up quotes under the new system. Please bear with me.

yeah those medical examiners never know what they're doing do they.

Certainly. I do not trust state power.

None of that evidence really matters it's not really evidence
No shit.

It is hearsay for purposes of Court.

If you have heart problems resisting arrest may be more dangerous for you.
play stupid games win stupid prizes.

Indeed. But that sword cuts both ways. Keep kneeling on someone's neck until they are dead, enjoy the next 10 to 20 years behind bars. Stupid prizes all around.

I will need more proof than an AP opinion blog or a single expert opinion because I've seen this happen and never seen anyone die.

You have made your conclusions based on the evidence. I have made mine. I will not re-litigate them in an effort to convince you.

I know I've been here long enough anyone who doesn't agree and locked up with you is defending the other side there's no possible opinions at all between yours and the opposite of yours.

Forgive me if I don't take you seriously when you say ridiculous nonsense.

I honestly do not know what you are referring to here, CLAX.

when did you get your police training?

Never. I was taught as a child that you do not apply pressure to the neck of other children because it could kill them. If police officers are taught to handle suspects in a less competent manner than children, those trainers ought to be fired and blacklisted from ever training officers ever again.

good morning you get murder in the First?

Not sure what to make of that.

 

[CLAX1911]

@CLAX1911 , I do not know how to break up quotes under the new system. Please bear with me.


Certainly. I do not trust state power.

what is that have to do with the medical examiner are they part of a conspiracy? You think the governor is slipping them an envelope full of dollar bills saying make this look like an accident?

It is hearsay for purposes of Court.

So? Where do people get that hearsay can't be discussed at all in a court of course it can, it's often pivotal and convictions and exonerations.

Indeed. But that sword cuts both ways. Keep kneeling on someone's neck until they are dead, enjoy the next 10 to 20 years behind bars. Stupid prizes all around.

if it can be proven that that was the cause of death sure. I'm not so convinced.

12 Minneapolis citizens sitting on that jury have watched their neighbors loose homes in businesses and some even their life over riots. I'm sure that was at the utmost front of all those jurors minds and they were sitting in that box.

You have made your conclusions based on the evidence. I have made mine. I will not re-litigate them in an effort to convince you.

well you just kind of pick and choose you don't trust state power which somehow means the medical examiner so that's evidence you discount.

If you don't want to talk about this then why are you talking about this?

I honestly do not know what you are referring to here, CLAX.

when you disagree with me about something and there's a discussion happening about it like what we're having right now, it's very common for one of the people involved to think that the person arguing with them has taken up the opposite position as if it's black and white and there's only two choices.

It's a false cause.

Never. I was taught as a child that you do not apply pressure to the neck of other children because it could kill them.

I don't believe anybody ever taught you this, I don't remember ever having the conversation when I was growing up now son don't ever kneel on someone's neck they could be high on fentanyl and have cardiac arrest.

Further I'm not so sure that it could kill somebody that didn't have a heart problem.

If police officers are taught to handle suspects in a less competent manner than children, those trainers ought to be fired and blacklisted from ever training officers ever again.

Well first and foremost if the procedure is dangerous I think the procedure should be suspended before you bring in everybody else and retrain them that should happen immediately. Then you bring in everybody in train them. But you don't prosecute somebody for following procedure. They didn't write the procedure you go after the problem, not the figurehead

Not sure what to make of that.

I apologize.

You had stated the officer kneeling on Floyd's neck was like him cutting his throat with a knife.

No somebody cut someone's throat with a knife, that would be premeditated murder or in Minneapolis murder in the first degree.

If what you said is true and not just your feelings, why wasn't he charged with the murder in the first that would have been a slam dunk?

 

[trouble13]

IMO There is plenty of wrong to go around.. ..

1. I don't think its right to arrest someone based on the suspicion that they passed a fake bill. They should a court summons and the person can sort it out in court at that time. We don't need to be locking people up while waiting to be heard for a nonviolent crime like that.

2. Floyd was wrong to resist arrest. Once he used force, the cop was justified to also use force.

3. Once a cop has a person subdued and they become compliant, the cop needs to de-esculate the amount of force being used. And if the person becomes unresponsive the cop needs to get the person medical assistance if its required.

If any 1 of those 3 things were done differently Floyd would likely be alive today.

That being said, if I were on that jury I would of voted guilty on all 3 counts as well. If I were the judge I would give him the maximum sentence to go with each count.

And with that being said if he appeals I would also declare it a mistrial based on the circumstances and force the state to give him a 2nd trial. Jury intimidation should not be tolerated. I would keep declaring mistrials until it stopped.

Mob justice does not work for me even when I agree with the verdict.

 

[MaryP]

When you say show you're saying and then you say some stupid nonsense that's not what I was saying that's exactly what a straw man is.

You want to attack the stupid argument you made up and pretend as though it's mine.

I wish people would understand the basics of logic before they started discussing things on a debate forum.

I have no idea what that means, so I'll leave it there.

 

[CLAX1911]

I have no idea what that means, so I'll leave it there.

All pictures of successfully called you out, totally owned you, and you have to pretend you forgot how to read English in order to save face.

It'll be our little secret.

 

[calamity]

When you say show you're saying and then you say some stupid nonsense that's not what I was saying that's exactly what a straw man is.

The above sentence is not exactly "English." Certainly it is not the best English.

All pictures of successfully called you out, totally owned you, and you have to pretend you forgot how to read English in order to save face.

It'll be our little secret.

 

[CaughtInThe]

You know, it's possible to think that two people were wrong at the same time.

Is that a way to try to justify a murder?

 

[Cosmik Debris]

Why is the left always pro criminal???

It is the right that supports trump.

 

[CaughtInThe]

what a ridiculous lie. what the poster is saying is this-and the facts support it-almost everyone who has died as a result of a confrontation with the police, did so because they did not initially comply with the officer's orders. From the dope dealer who a U of Cincinnati cop shot to death to the mope in Missouri (Brown) who was shot after being told to stop several times, to Floyd, almost everyone fought back or refused to comply. That doesn't justify -in all cases-the police officers shooting them or otherwise harming them, but I bet if Floyd had immediately complied, he'd be just another mope that most people would not have heard about

All that's ridiculous because the police still have no right to murder a citizen. And a bunch of you guys are just simply making excuses for government officials murdering citizens.

And the rest of the country sees you and those like you.

 

[Aurora]

So you agree with the guilty verdict then. You could have said so when you first joined this thread.

I've stated long ago, Chauvin used excessive force. I would of gone for 2nd deg manslaughter. AS Maxine demanded , they went with all three charges. Chauvin killed him three times.