Hauntings

[Glowpun]

Are there really such things as hauntings and ghosts and what exactly are they?

 

[Sparky2]

That's quite a topic, friend Glowpun.

It's been debated for many centuries, and nobody has come up with much conclusive evidence one way or the other.

 

[CanadaJohn]

Are there really such things as hauntings and ghosts and what exactly are they?

It may not be what you're looking for, but I believe they exist. I believe if a person or animal dies at home in their sleep their spirit may linger. I know my dog, who passed away in her sleep last October, still visits - I hear her and sense her. Now, that could simply be that I grew used to having her around and hearing the sounds she made in her sleep or as she wandered the house at night but they certainly seem real enough.

Seems to me, a being's spirit may have the ability to hang around if they've got unfinished business or if they weren't ready to go or have loved ones they want to take care of. It's perhaps a romantic or fanciful thought, but I'm sticking with it.

 

[Gathomas88]

Are there really such things as hauntings and ghosts and what exactly are they?

For the most part? People's imaginations getting the better of them.

In some rare cases, there might be demonic forces at play as well, egging things on (speaking from the Catholic perspective, at least).

 

[MaggieD]

Are there really such things as hauntings and ghosts and what exactly are they?

I believe there is a thin veil that separates this world we know from an afterlife we don't know. Sometimes the veil is lifted or moved aside. Since I also believe that this other plane is a positive, can't say as I believe in hauntings. Ghosts? Maybe spirits visiting might more closely align with my beliefs.

 

[Dittohead not!]

I've already started a list of people I'm coming back to haunt.

 

[Northern Light]

I grew up in a haunted house, it's no joke. And my family was hardcore Catholic... you know, the kind that likes to deny that paranormal stuff exists. Well, we didn't have that luxury. We ended up moving. Nothing violent happened, just stuff that was creepy as hell on a regular basis. It was hell when I was a kid because the ghost liked to mess with me the most. So I slept in my older sister's room half the time.

People who can conveniently pretend this stuff isn't real are lucky. Ignorance is bliss.

I don't know how the other world works but it's obvious that there is more going on here than just the material world. I'm just glad I don't have to deal with that creepy **** anymore. Someone else can figure it out. I'm not interested! No thanks!

 

[EMNofSeattle]

That's quite a topic, friend Glowpun.

It's been debated for many centuries, and nobody has come up with much conclusive evidence one way or the other.

It is incumbent upon the believer to conclusively prove they exist, no evidence supports the existence of ghosts. I do not believe in them at all.

It's fun to listen to horror stories. Some nights I'll go drive down some remote rural roads in the forest lands where I live listening to nosleep podcasts, but really? Ghosts goblins gremlins fairies whatever, they don't exist, there's no scientific basis for any of it.

 

[Northern Light]

It is incumbent upon the believer to conclusively prove they exist, no evidence supports the existence of ghosts. I do not believe in them at all.

It's fun to listen to horror stories. Some nights I'll go drive down some remote rural roads in the forest lands where I live listening to nosleep podcasts, but really? Ghosts goblins gremlins fairies whatever, they don't exist, there's no scientific basis for any of it.

I just want to point out that what you're saying is actually unscientific and a logical fallacy. Just because science has not yet tested it, does not mean it is not real. It just means that it remains untested. That is the fundamental truth. "It does not exist" is an added conclusion that has no evidence. If it lies outside of the current domain of science, then science cannot form an opinion on it. There are a lot of human experiences and phenomena that science cannot yet form an opinion on. Consciousness itself is one of them. We can make educated guesses based on available data, but that is not proof of existence or absence, it's just our best guess.

True scientific method is actually opinion-neutral on the topic of ghosts. There are paranormal sciences though which are kind of interesting... but their methods are a bit questionable.

Anyway, I know what my family experienced growing up and I don't really feel the need to prove myself. I just wanted to point out that what you're saying does not actually follow, unfortunately.

 

[Sherman123]

Are there really such things as hauntings and ghosts and what exactly are they?

I vehemently disbelieve in spirits.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I just want to point out that what you're saying is actually unscientific and a logical fallacy. Just because science has not yet tested it, does not mean it is not real. It just means that it remains untested. That is the fundamental truth. "It does not exist" is an added conclusion that has no evidence. If it lies outside of the current domain of science, then science cannot form an opinion on it. There are a lot of human experiences and phenomena that science cannot yet form an opinion on. Consciousness itself is one of them. We can make educated guesses based on available data, but that is not proof of existence or absence, it's just our best guess.

True scientific method is actually opinion-neutral on the topic of ghosts. There are paranormal sciences though which are kind of interesting... but their methods are a bit questionable.

Anyway, I know what my family experienced growing up and I don't really feel the need to prove myself. I just wanted to point out that what you're saying does not actually follow, unfortunately.

well that's the entire thing, ghosts and goblins and ghouls are things that CANNOT be scientifically tested. Remember the scientific method.



Nobody has ever conducted an expirement for ghosts based on this method.

in fact you cannot, because you cannot create a hypothesis for their existence that is scientifically falsifiable.
even if you could believers will still believe.

it comes down to if you believe in ghosts, if you're a believer you'll see them, if you're a flat out denier you will not.

 

[_Sal]

Are there really such things as hauntings and ghosts and what exactly are they?

in one form or another it is likely

I believe it is trapped energy or an imprint of some kind

 

[Northern Light]

Nobody has ever conducted an expirement for ghosts based on this method.

in fact you cannot, because you cannot create a hypothesis for their existence that is scientifically falsifiable.
even if you could believers will still believe.

Thank you for the diagram but I don't need it.

The first part of your statement is accurate. The part in bold is a supposition that has no evidence. You can't create a falsifiable experiment because there is no scientific means to test for ghosts. Hence opinion neutral, at this time.

it comes down to if you believe in ghosts, if you're a believer you'll see them, if you're a flat out denier you will not.

You are claiming that seeing ghosts is a matter of whether or not you believe in them, and that they aren't at all based on a true externality. What is your evidence for this assertion?

Sounds like you are stating a personal belief, not a scientific fact.

You are not following the tenets of skepticism correctly. No offense.

 

[Abbazorkzog]

well that's the entire thing, ghosts and goblins and ghouls are things that CANNOT be scientifically tested. Remember the scientific method.

View attachment 67209302

Nobody has ever conducted an expirement for ghosts based on this method.

in fact you cannot, because you cannot create a hypothesis for their existence that is scientifically falsifiable.
even if you could believers will still believe.

it comes down to if you believe in ghosts, if you're a believer you'll see them, if you're a flat out denier you will not.

Had one throw a cross statue at me once. A few other times I've seen them out of the corner of my eyes and I've seen shadow people. Suffered from sleep paralysis my whole life. One house I lived in had them all over the place. Me and my friend also saw a 12-foot humanoid silhouette in an abandoned grain factory in Johnson City, back in 2014. As soon as we shined the light at it, it disappeared into the wall. Dunno wtf that could have been.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Had one throw a cross statue at me once.

Since ghosts do not exist, one did not throw a cross statue at you.

A few other times I've seen them out of the corner of my eyes and I've seen shadow people.

I have no doubt YOU believe you've seen shadow people, that doesn't mean they do exist

Suffered from sleep paralysis my whole life.

Now we're getting somewhere, hallucinations are a common occurence with sleep paralysis. sleep paralysis was at once linked with demonic visits, but it's literally just a temporary hallucination in your mind, nothing more, medical science has determined this.

One house I lived in had them all over the place.

You THOUGHT they were all over the place, I could live there and never see them I guess.

Me and my friend also saw a 12-foot humanoid silhouette in an abandoned grain factory in Johnson City, back in 2014. As soon as we shined the light at it, it disappeared into the wall. Dunno wtf that could have been.

Your eyes in poor light misreading shapes? I've had that happen to me many times....

 

[Abbazorkzog]

Since ghosts do not exist, one did not throw a cross statue at you.



I have no doubt YOU believe you've seen shadow people, that doesn't mean they do exist
Now we're getting somewhere, hallucinations are a common occurence with sleep paralysis. sleep paralysis was at once linked with demonic visits, but it's literally just a temporary hallucination in your mind, nothing more, medical science has determined this. You THOUGHT they were all over the place, I could live there and never see them I guess.

Your eyes in poor light misreading shapes? I've had that happen to me many times....

OK, I clearly mistook you for being an open-minded individual.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Since ghosts do not exist, one did not throw a cross statue at you.



I have no doubt YOU believe you've seen shadow people, that doesn't mean they do exist
Now we're getting somewhere, hallucinations are a common occurence with sleep paralysis. sleep paralysis was at once linked with demonic visits, but it's literally just a temporary hallucination in your mind, nothing more, medical science has determined this. You THOUGHT they were all over the place, I could live there and never see them I guess.

Your eyes in poor light misreading shapes? I've had that happen to me many times....

You seem pretty sure.
Can you prove that there are no ghosts?

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Thank you for the diagram but I don't need it.

I was too lazy to write it out so I copied and pasted

The first part of your statement is accurate. The part in bold is a supposition that has no evidence. You can't create a falsifiable experiment because there is no scientific means to test for ghosts. Hence opinion neutral, at this time.

actually there is, people attribute maladies to ghosts all the time, you can certainly scientifically test for the alleged effects of ghosts. for example an electrician can easily falsify flickering lights with an ispection. damage, moving objects, etc can be analyzed with cameras, the only problem is, these things never seem to happen when third parties with recording equipment actually try.

You are claiming that seeing ghosts is a matter of whether or not you believe in them, and that they aren't at all based on a true externality. What is your evidence for this assertion?

Because most of us people who outright deny their existence either never see them or observe something off and come to a logical conclusion or simply assume there is one.
If ghosts were caused by externalities, a ghost denier would experience them same as a believer. I cannot deny the existence of trees or oxygen, those are external to me, seeing apparitions is usually not.

Sounds like you are stating a personal belief, not a scientific fact.

It is a personal belief but I am confident it would be validated if studied

You are not following the tenets of skepticism correctly. No offense.

none taken

 

[EMNofSeattle]

You seem pretty sure.
Can you prove that there are no ghosts?

Not to the satisfaction of someone who believes they exist.....

 

[EMNofSeattle]

OK, I clearly mistook you for being an open-minded individual.

I'm not open minded to the idea that ghosts exist, because no scientific evidence of them exists.

We can have a discussion about the topic, but that means I can offer a reasonable explanation for your observations, because as far as I'm concerned a statute flying at you from a dead stop with no external actor is physically impossible, therefore some level of physical force must've been exerted on it, since there is no existing scientific evidence for physical spiritual beings, I find it difficult to believe.

you believe you saw a silhouette in an abandoned grain facility, when I was younger I loved to trespas... I mean explore in abandoned industrial facilities, everywhere from parking garages to a closed draw bridge, to beached boats and ships etc. you always see things in those places, especially if you're looking for humanoid shapes because you're not supposed to be there and don't want to be caught, now maybe you had permission to be at that facility, but still a 12 foot shape is not out of my experience with abandoned facilities, and I certainly do not attribute them to ghosts.

maybe you didn't like me bringing up sleep paralysis, but since you brought it up, hallucinations are well documented in medical journal work based on the issue.

 

[AlbqOwl]

Are there really such things as hauntings and ghosts and what exactly are they?

I just posted on your other thread that I have never seen or experienced a ghost, at least in a way that I clearly identified it as a ghost. But I have listened to so many people--people I have every confidence would not lie about it or make up such a story--who have experienced what they, for want of a better explanation, described as a ghost. I believe they had the experience whether or not an explanation other than a ghost was the cause of their experience.

Based on my belief that what I know and have been taught and have experienced in my ever lengthy life is such a teensy speck of knowledge in all there is to know, I have to keep an open mind on the subject.

And, like @CanadaJohn testified, I too have sensed the presence of people in my life who have passed on. And I swear that sometimes we hear the doggie door snap like it used to and hear the clicking of his claws on the kitchen floor tiles like we used to when our beloved dog was alive. And we joke when we hear somebody rattling around in the kitchen or the front door slowly swings open without any obvious breeze to cause it that the former now deceased resident of our house is about. Who knows? Maybe she is.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Not to the satisfaction of someone who believes they exist.....

How about to the satisfaction of someone who doesn't know?

 

[EMNofSeattle]

How about to the satisfaction of someone who doesn't know?

We can start with, ghosts are a belief in the "supernatural" same as werewolves, witches, zombies, vampires, etc and throughout history the supernatural was used both to scapegoat people as being not actually people, and to explain what could not be explained with their limited scientific knowledge. so we start there.

we can then go to alleged hauntings that can not be verified by independent observation, and in some cases people claim hauntings stemming from events that never occurred, such as "the sultans palace" in New Orleans.

We can go to the fact that ghost believers cannot even agree exactly a ghost even is, which basically thwarts any effort to scientifically determine them.

perhaps the biggest reason we can safely presume they do not, is that the human body is basically a machine, organic maybe, but a machine nonetheless, so if we can sense, see, hear ghosts, so should cameras, tape recorders, etc and yet despite this they are not being detected, not be security cameras, or sound recorders.

 

[AlbqOwl]

We can start with, ghosts are a belief in the "supernatural" same as werewolves, witches, zombies, vampires, etc and throughout history the supernatural was used both to scapegoat people as being not actually people, and to explain what could not be explained with their limited scientific knowledge. so we start there.

we can then go to alleged hauntings that can not be verified by independent observation, and in some cases people claim hauntings stemming from events that never occurred, such as "the sultans palace" in New Orleans.

We can go to the fact that ghost believers cannot even agree exactly a ghost even is, which basically thwarts any effort to scientifically determine them.

perhaps the biggest reason we can safely presume they do not, is that the human body is basically a machine, organic maybe, but a machine nonetheless, so if we can sense, see, hear ghosts, so should cameras, tape recorders, etc and yet despite this they are not being detected, not be security cameras, or sound recorders.

There are some who say they have been detected, both on sound recorders and on film. If you ever have a chance to visit the St. James Hotel in Cimmeron NM, reported as one of the most haunted places around, and see their presentation and testimony of those who have experienced extranormal phenomenon, you come away at least a skeptic rather than a firm disbeliever if you don't come away a believer.

 

[Northern Light]

I think a lot of what you're saying has merit. Phenomena should first be separated from mundane causes and explanations. What I think is a tad bit flawed in extending this analysis too much is the notion that, because a lot of it can be ruled out, that all of it can be ruled out. This, at best, is a hypothesis, albeit a reasonable one. Do you disagree?

Because most of us people who outright deny their existence either never see them or observe something off and come to a logical conclusion or simply assume there is one.

These are just guesses... but maybe that's because of timing, or location, or that true frequency (as opposed to mundane causes) is relatively rare. Some even suppose that there may be a human faculty for seeing them that not all humans possess. For instance, it has been suggested that children are particularly susceptible, maybe not because of their wild imaginations but perhaps because they are more sensitive or something.

Anyway... my point is... even if you take 1% of the anecdotal reports that seem the most real and plausible and parse them for corroborating details, this is enough to form an entire school of work. That's basically what paranormal science has done.

If ghosts were caused by externalities, a ghost denier would experience them same as a believer. I cannot deny the existence of trees or oxygen, those are external to me, seeing apparitions is usually not.

The body of your argument is that you yourself have not experienced them. Well, I haven't experienced Russia but I know it's there because other people have told me about it.

It is a personal belief but I am confident it would be validated if studied

I don't consider myself as a believer or a non-believer, merely an experiencer. I can't claim any mechanism for how it works, I just know what I saw and it doesn't have a mundane explanation. What I'm curious about is, if there is theoretically some kind of layer of space beyond the physical that is more subtle, how on Earth could we use physical means (like machines) to detect it? Are ghosts subatomic or a different kind of matter completely?

If people can see ghosts with the naked eye then that implies there is a physical detection threshold. And if some ghosts can move objects then there is an interaction.