• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Has Israel stated a single truth throughout this entire genocide? And a challenge...

Dans La Lune

Do you read Sutter Cane?
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 30, 2019
Messages
15,166
Reaction score
10,149
Location
Hobbs End
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Socialist
Looking back, I am genuinely curious if, at any significant event or point in this conflict, Israel has been forth-right and honest. Time after time they've been caught in lies. And worse.

Outside of blatant racism / ethno-bigotry, and Western white privilege, why is Israel believed over any other party in this conflict (keeping in mind that Hamas only one of those groups).

How many times do you have to be slapped across the face with a lie before you stop believe the party which slapped you?

So my challenge: Point to an event where there was controversy and conflicting stories (Israel said X vs. Hamas or INWRA or [insert humanitarian aid group] saying Y), and where Israel was vindicated in the truth.

There may well one. Refresh my memory.
 
Looking back, I am genuinely curious if, at any significant event or point in this conflict, Israel has been forth-right and honest. Time after time they've been caught in lies. And worse.

Outside of blatant racism / ethno-bigotry, and Western white privilege, why is Israel believed over any other party in this conflict (keeping in mind that Hamas only one of those groups).

How many times do you have to be slapped across the face with a lie before you stop believe the party which slapped you?

So my challenge: Point to an event where there was controversy and conflicting stories (Israel said X vs. Hamas or INWRA or [insert humanitarian aid group] saying Y), and where Israel was vindicated in the truth.

There may well one. Refresh my memory.
Netanyahu lies, like trump lies, like Putin lies, etc. Some people have to be slapped silly with lies and they still are too stupid (or loyal) to ever stop believing them.
 
Lets start at the beginning. Did the music festival really get attacked? Or was the whole thing all made up as a false flag event?
 
Lets start at the beginning. Did the music festival really get attacked? Or was the whole thing all made up as a false flag event?

And then we continue with the post that asked who isn't telling the truth. Have the Hamas leaders been truthful?

By the way, the chief culprit, Iran; have that publicly stated they want to wipe Israel off the map?

EDIT: Excuse my error; that post wasn't asking who isn't truthful. Was just flat out stating names. BUT didn't include Hamas leaders. Kind of odd leaving them off the list.
 
If you want the truth from GAZA, you won't get it from the news media.

Hamas controls what news/statistics is acceptable to release and what is not. The media pool regurgitates whatever information is fed to them, and they are fine with this as long as they are getting a paycheck.





The leftists only want to report on Israel's restrictions with the media because goes along with their anti Israel crusade.
 
I can't think of one, pre-dating October 7 regarding their colonialism, on October 7 filled with lies about Hamas atrocities (with smaller bits of truth included), and their own mass murder of their own citizens they covered up, their complicity in the attack and their motives to use it for genocide, and their genocide since.
 
And then we continue with the post that asked who isn't telling the truth. Have the Hamas leaders been truthful?

By the way, the chief culprit, Iran; have that publicly stated they want to wipe Israel off the map?

EDIT: Excuse my error; that post wasn't asking who isn't truthful. Was just flat out stating names. BUT didn't include Hamas leaders. Kind of odd leaving them off the list.
What are you talking about? Iran is not "the chief culprit". That would be like calling England "the chief culprit" in the Holocaust. Israel (Much Worse than Hamas) is the "chief culprit", with the US their partner. Hamas has largely told the truth that I've seen. They're rarely heard from at all, because the media rarely reports what they say.
 
What are you talking about? Iran is not "the chief culprit". That would be like calling England "the chief culprit" in the Holocaust. Israel (Much Worse than Hamas) is the "chief culprit", with the US their partner. Hamas has largely told the truth that I've seen. They're rarely heard from at all, because the media rarely reports what they say.

You've got me sort of confused. Excuse me for that, but please answer a question; how does Hamas generate funds? You know, where does their money come from?
 
You've got me sort of confused. Excuse me for that, but please answer a question; how does Hamas generate funds? You know, where does their money come from?
I'm not expert on Hamas funding, but I think they get much of it from countries who support resistance against the illegal occupation, such as Qatar and Iran. Google confirms this and adds entities in "Algeria, Sudan... Turkey, and the United Arab Emirates." I view funding Hamas as very different from "the main culprit".
 
Lets start at the beginning. Did the music festival really get attacked? Or was the whole thing all made up as a false flag event?

That's not the beginning so you fell at the very first hurdle ( and the second one)
 
If you want the truth from GAZA, you won't get it from the news media.

Well Israel refuses to let the international media folk in so your point is valid to some degree just not in the way you wanted it to be.


The IDF have proven themselves to be truthniks though haven't they? 😂😂😂😂
 
You've got me sort of confused.

Nah, you can thank Israeli propaganda folk for that one.



; how does Hamas generate funds? You know, where does their money come from?

As Craig said they are funded by states sympathetic to their cause. Netanyahu and co acted as something of a conduit for some of it from Qatar
 
I'm not expert on Hamas funding, but I think they get much of it from countries who support resistance against the illegal occupation, such as Qatar and Iran. Google confirms this and adds entities in "Algeria, Sudan... Turkey, and the United Arab Emirates." I view funding Hamas as very different from "the main culprit".

I'm glad you used that vocabulary "culprit" and as I have to be careful where I gather material because if I do not choose a media entity that is acceptable to those with a left lean in their view of certain matters I am labeled some sort of cherry picking type, I am using BBC (maybe viewed as a neutral) and CNN.

These articles were published about events before the October 7th event:

7 April 2023

Please allow me to post a couple lines about what the key is in their coverage; rockets fired at Israel:

Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip, which is controlled by Hamas, have also fired 25 rockets at Israel over the same period, and the Israeli military has carried out air strikes there in response.

Late on Thursday, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said they were "currently striking in Gaza". A number of explosions were heard in Gaza, and AFP news agency reported that multiple Hamas training sites had been hit.

5 may 2023

Here the "strongly suggesting" quote is worthy:

Hamas, the Palestinian militant movement that runs Gaza, issued a statement Wednesday strongly suggesting that its forces were releasing rockets toward Israel, shortly after the IDF said firmly it believed Hamas was not doing so.

“The Palestinian resistance with all its factions, led by the Nasser Salah al-Din Brigades, is participating now in a unified manner by teaching the enemy a lesson that it will not forget and confirming that Palestinian blood is not cheap,” said the statement, issued by Muhammad al-Buraim, an official in the joint resistance committees in Palestine.

Obviously, I am pointing out that Hamas is not so peaceful in their manner of handling disputes. AND those rockets they are using were probably not built in Gaza. That is no small logistics mission to transport those rockets from wherever they are manufactured to Gaza. You suppose that sort of logistics work is/was accomplished exclusively by Hamas forces?

And I would bet that with some further research we could find out if Hamas fired upon Israel first, or Israel fired upon Hamas first. Now I bring up that who fired first question because of your odd statement, as follows:

I view funding Hamas as very different from "the main culprit".

And about that "main culprit" point and my making note of a nation that clearly stated they wanted Israel removed from the Earth; you seemed to have missed that. Not sure why you missed it, but probably just an accident, yes?
 
I'm glad you used that vocabulary "culprit" and as I have to be careful where I gather material because if I do not choose a media entity that is acceptable to those with a left lean in their view of certain matters I am labeled some sort of cherry picking type, I am using BBC (maybe viewed as a neutral) and CNN.

I don't quickly say that, but BBC and CNN both have a pretty strong rogue state bias. But I don't think that will affect the topic. I used culprit just quoting you.

Please allow me to post a couple lines about what the key is in their coverage; rockets fired at Israel:

The 'rockets fired at the rogue state' is a hugely exaggerated and exploited issue. It's used to justify unlimited violence. They cause very little harm, they've been called 'firecrackers', they seem to be a morale thing like throwing a rock at a tank. They're 'homemade' and I've heard use unexploded attacks from the rogue state.

Obviously, I am pointing out that Hamas is not so peaceful in their manner of handling disputes. AND those rockets they are using were probably not built in Gaza. That is no small logistics mission to transport those rockets from wherever they are manufactured to Gaza. You suppose that sort of logistics work is/was accomplished exclusively by Hamas forces?

They're not peaceful, but they don't have a tiny fraction of the military strength the rogue state does, and they are WILLING and calling for cease fire, and even to disband their military and control of Gaza if the rogue state will end its colonialism of Palestinians. As of 2017 they agreed to recognize the 1967 boundaries. I think they were built in Gaza. Here's the first video Google found with some info:



And I would bet that with some further research we could find out if Hamas fired upon Israel first, or Israel fired upon Hamas first. Now I bring up that who fired first question because of your odd statement, as follows:

Oh, boy. For 'first', go back to the Nakba at least. Ever since, it's been an issue of illegal occupier and occupied. We can look at specific incidents, there are attacks from each side at times but overwhelmingly the rogue state 'starts it' and Hamas is resisting the occupation and oppression and now the genocide.

And about that "main culprit" point and my making note of a nation that clearly stated they wanted Israel removed from the Earth; you seemed to have missed that. Not sure why you missed it, but probably just an accident, yes?

I didn't miss it. I'd say nearly all mention of 'they want to wipe them off the map' is rogue state propaganda - it's used to justify their unlimited violence much like Hitler claimed Jews wanted to destroy Germany; nearly all the rest is either hyperbole or misrepresented or needs clarification about what's actually being said. Nearly all of it is saying they want the state to be ended, not to kill anyone, and they welcome the people to live peacefully.

Even that limited statement is almost entirely absent from anyone but a few radical individuals. Other states don't say any more, and as I said above Hamas since 2017 offered to accept the rogue state in 1967 boundaries.

The problem is entirely the rogue state and the US. See my sig for something to consider also. I didn't get into all that the last post, but since you repeat it. What Hamas ideally wants is one state of Palestine, almost a reversal of the rogue state, where Jews are welcome to live under Palestinian rule. They understand they won't get it and offered the two state option. It has nothing to do with anti-Semitism IMO, , that is propaganda, it's anti-colonialism.
 
You'll please excuse me for first focusing on the following:

I didn't miss it. I'd say nearly all mention of 'they want to wipe them off the map' is rogue state propaganda - it's used to justify their unlimited violence much like Hitler claimed Jews wanted to destroy Germany; nearly all the rest is either hyperbole or misrepresented or needs clarification about what's actually being said. Nearly all of it is saying they want the state to be ended, not to kill anyone, and they welcome the people to live peacefully.

Even that limited statement is almost entirely absent from anyone but a few radical individuals. Other states don't say any more, and as I said above Hamas since 2017 offered to accept the rogue state in 1967 boundaries.

And let me show you a couple results doing a single-page quick search:

Iran's current government does not recognize Israel's legitimacy as a state and has called for its destruction; it views Palestine as the sole legitimate government of the historic Palestinian territories.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Israel_relations

Iran's Supreme Leader Says Israel Won't Exist in 25 Years

The New York Times
https://www.nytimes.com › World › Middle East
Sep 9, 2015 — Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said Israel need not worry about the 25-year period after the nuclear deal, because it would not be around, ...

So you think the New York Times editors would have misquoted Ayatollah Ali Khamenei? Do you think the New York Times would allow itself to be used by Israel to plant fiction as fact, in one of the NYT's news releases? Meaning that Ayatollah Ali Khamenei didn't actually say that?
 
Last edited:
Do you also think the Roman records are fiction? You know, there being no Arabs in the Roman area of control in that area way back in time.
 
You'll please excuse me for first focusing on the following:

No problem.

And let me show you a couple results doing a single-page quick search:

I'd like some better content. The rogue state has been trying to 'destroy Iran' for decades, trying to push the US into war with them. Right now there is a real possibility that Netanyahu could 'go rogue' and start a war with them knowing the US would join. They've been pushing for it since at least the 90's; often behind the scenes as they did when they were a top influence on the Iraq war.

It wasn't entirely behind the scenes - Netanyahu told Congress the US needed to go to war with Saddam - but much was. The "Neocons" who pushed for both wars were heavily involved with the rogue state.
The rogue state has assassinated many Iranian scientists, bombed their embassy grounds, assassinated a leader who was a guest for an inauguration in Tehran, doubtless encouraged trump's assassination of their top military commander, launched the terror attack on thousands of Iran's ally Hezbollah and anyone around them, and much more.

So I'd like to see more specific - wanting the rogue state colonialists to return the land to Palestinians to govern is one thing, that's not a desire to nuke them - they don't even want nukes, shockingly, for religious reasons - it doesn't mean wanting to 'kill Jews', it means a change in governance and and end to the colonialist oppression. See what their new president said:


So you think the New York Times editors would have misquoted Ayatollah Ali Khamenei? Do you think the New York Times would allow itself to be used by Israel to plant fiction as fact, in one of the NYT's news releases? Meaning that Ayatollah Ali Khamenei didn't actually say that?

Many people predict the rogue state is going to disappear, because of it losing its legitimacy as a state and the opposition from the world to their crimes - not unlike how people might say a neo-Nazi government won't last; they include people like Lawrence Wilkerson, Colin Powell's chief of staff. Predicting the government won't last is not a threat of war in this case.

It's why I say you need to get the correct context. For example, Iran chants 'death to America'. Tour guide Rick Steves was in Iran, and his taxi driver yelled 'death to traffic!' Steves asked him about it, and he said they it's something they say about anything they don't like - he found the people really like Americans, but not government policies like support for the rogue state.
 
Do you also think the Roman records are fiction? You know, there being no Arabs in the Roman area of control in that area way back in time.
I don't care, actually. The colonialists love to make propaganda arguments about ancient history and invest heavily in archeology trying to support their colonialism as if it matters. It works on some people, many citizens in the rogue state are indoctrinated based on it. To answer you, I'm not saying Roman records are false.
 
Lets start at the beginning. Did the music festival really get attacked? Or was the whole thing all made up as a false flag event?
That wasn't the beginning. Started long before that.
 
Netanyahu, in the wake of the carnage of Oct. 7th, 2023, invoked the ancient memory of the extermination of the Amalekites when he invoked and described the State of Israel's intended response to the attacks by Palestinian militants as, "Amalek! ". With each day and week that passes, that utterance seems to be coming closer to the truth. Both truth and ethics/morality are early casualties in any conflict or war. Agents of the State of Israel have become very adept at lying in the service of the state's interests and very flexible in their ethics in service to those same interests. However it must be pointed out that this dual progression of behaviour is also exhibited as strongly by many of the Palestinian militants (not all Palestinians) with whom the State of Israel is fighting.

Both Exodus 17:8-16 and Deuteronomy 25:17-19 discuss the genocide of Amalek. Exodus depicts an initial defeat of this wandering tribe, and explains that YHWH, the national God of Israel, “will utterly blot out the memory (Hebrew זֵכֶר) of Amalek from under heaven!” (2) (Exod 17:14). The shorter text in Deut 25:19 speaks more problematically not of YHWH obliterating Amalek, but of Israel’s obligation to “blot out the memory (again, זֵכֶר) of Amalek from under heaven. Do not forget!” In a follow-up in 1 Samuel 15:3, Saul, Israel’s first king, is told by YHWH via the prophet Samuel, “Now go, attack Amalek, and proscribe [kill and dedicate to YHWH—MZB] (3) all that belongs to him. Spare no one, but kill alike men and women, infants and sucklings, oxen and sheep, camels and asses!”


Man's inhumanity to man is still a theme in tribal war in the Levant and many places beyond. Perhaps we should rename the region the Unholy Land.

Be safe and be well.
Evilroddy.
 
Back
Top Bottom