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~ The "hard Brexiters" are those want to act quickly and be gone. They want to curb European migration as quickly as possible, using a points system. They don't much value being part of the single market, and point out that just about every nation in the world has "access" to it, without being a member. You can call this the "Canada Lite" model if you like.
"Soft Brexiters" want to take their time, and retain as close a relationship with the rest of the European Union as possible. They want access to the single market, and some sort of minor concession on free movement.
Perhaps, they muse, the EU would give us an emergency brake and annual quotas on both sides. Their priority is to avoid trade tariffs and secure a good deal for services, particularly financial services. That's "Norway Plus" ~ Link.
Thoughtful article on the new politics, I really get the sense of a continued strong divide with people around me still talking of the "Remain Camp" and "Brexit Camp," but the talk of two versions of Brexit also makes sense.
As the article asks, are we going to see new political parties grow? UKIP certainly haven't given up - Johnathan Anott, UKIP member up here in the north certainly sees a future where he wants to convert the working class Labour voter who didn't support the official Labour position into a supporter of whatever name UKIP takes going forward.
That's not going to go away any time soon. TBH it will probably get worse when the full impact of Brexit begins to bite and the nature of the pup the Brexit voters were sold becomes clear. Now that UKIP and the Tories no longer have the EU to blame for everything wrong with British society and economy, are they now going to switch to scapegoating all immigrants instead? Yeah, that'll go well for social cohesion.We are a nation divided, that is something all politicians are going to have to address and be aware of.
Thoughtful article on the new politics, I really get the sense of a continued strong divide with people around me still talking of the "Remain Camp" and "Brexit Camp," but the talk of two versions of Brexit also makes sense.
As the article asks, are we going to see new political parties grow? UKIP certainly haven't given up - Johnathan Anott, UKIP member up here in the north certainly sees a future where he wants to convert the working class Labour voter who didn't support the official Labour position into a supporter of whatever name UKIP takes going forward.
We are a nation divided, that is something all politicians are going to have to address and be aware of.
Thoughtful article on the new politics, I really get the sense of a continued strong divide with people around me still talking of the "Remain Camp" and "Brexit Camp," but the talk of two versions of Brexit also makes sense.
As the article asks, are we going to see new political parties grow? UKIP certainly haven't given up - Johnathan Anott, UKIP member up here in the north certainly sees a future where he wants to convert the working class Labour voter who didn't support the official Labour position into a supporter of whatever name UKIP takes going forward.
We are a nation divided, that is something all politicians are going to have to address and be aware of.
~ But of course if we get a Norway Plus model ~
~ what does UKIP believe its appeal to former and current Labour voters will be? ~
~ Now that UKIP and the Tories no longer have the EU to blame for everything wrong with British society and economy ~
The problem they face is that their organisation is so threadbare that I'm not sure they have the decision-making mechanisms to create a cogent manifesto. As you point out, beyond Brexit, their politics are all over the place. You've got some liberal types like Suzanne Evans and Nikki Sinclaire who the Farage leadership tried to smear and purge, and you got some far-right, libertarian headbangers like Farage himself, Nuttall and Hamilton who want to increase gun ownership and privatise the NHS. Which UKIP will disenchanted Labour voters turn to? If they look to the libertarian right, they'll fall flat on their face since there is one thing that enjoys near unanimity of support in almost every one of those northern, Brexit-voting constituencies, and that's an NHS, free at the point of delivery.Right now, who can tell? UKIP membership was drawn from all sorts of sides of the spectrum. They will start to have an internal debate and discussion about where they will go.
No doubt. Three million votes don't lie.they are right when they say they are by size the 3rd largest political party right now.
Not going to happen, IC. The Tories are already planning on doubling down on austerity. Is there a single Brexiteer that is now promising that 350 million per week extra to the NHS, as they promised?All political parties blamed the EU and immigration for everything. What I'd like to see in 10 years time is those underdeveloped areas with high unemployment having policies and resources aimed squarely at them as they have asked.
It depends which areas you're talking about. The areas I'm talking about are the deprived cities and large towns of post-industrial northern England where the Tories have relocated the vast majority of incoming refugees and where minority ethnic communities are strong and large. Compare these two maps. The first is of the Brexit vote, the second of areas of concentration of migrants.As to the comment about scapegoating immigration - that won't wash as there are low numbers of migrants in those areas anyway.
What makes you believe May will pursue different policies from Cameron? The Tories to date, and let's not forget that May was #3 in the outgoing administration, offered nothing but austerity, cuts to services and greater southeastward centralisation to the struggling regions of the Midlands and North. Has anyone heard a peep out of Osborne on the 'Northern Powerhouse' proposals in the last year? What else might they offer?This is one area I hope Theresa May makes serious inroads - these people have asked for change and they better get it and they better be enabled (whatever that takes) to make use of the change. If these areas are still sinkholes of low education and aspiration, we will have problems.
The fact is that the Tories have no proposals for encouraging the ambitious and motivated students from areas such as yours. No carrot and stick, just stick and more stick. You think May will change that?I went to a conference yesterday forward planning for my county - by 2031, there will be a huge skills gap of people not qualified for the employment and opportunities at the higher employment grades which will be available. Some areas have very low aspiration and desire to engage, one area I've had several students from over the area is infamous for most of the local girls being pregnant and in council housing by 19 yrs of age. The ones who want to make it out and change their lives work hard to get out or educate themselves and we need to have more of these kids coming through to higher education.
~ Which UKIP will disenchanted Labour voters turn to? ~
~ Not going to happen, IC. The Tories are already planning on doubling down on austerity.
~ Is there a single Brexiteer that is now promising that 350 million per week extra to the NHS, as they promised?
~It depends which areas you're talking about. ~
There's not a significant discrepancy between them in the North and Northwest. Clearly there is in the Northeast.~
~ Has anyone heard a peep out of Osborne on the 'Northern Powerhouse' proposals in the last year?
~The fact is that the Tories have no proposals for encouraging the ambitious and motivated students from areas such as yours. No carrot and stick, just stick and more stick. You think May will change that?
Maybe the question is which Labour Party will speak for those disenchanted Labour voters? Not dodging your question but I am not a UKIP person, I can't speak for its organisation and manifesto.You're right about Labour's s***** prospects for unity and renewal, but that doesn't address a similar problem for UKIP. Just who and what are they post-Brexit?
No, she wasn't. She was a luke-warm supporter of remain. BTW, anyone else see the irony of Corbyn being excoriated for his luke warm campaigning, while May is being praised for her political acumen in keeping a low profile?Theresa May was a supporter of Brexit
Continue or abandon what?but there are at present vastly differing theories on whether she is going to continue or abandon.
Which was the Tories' #1 economic electoral position just last year.The only clear thing abandoned is the 2020 target which many felt wasn't going to be reached anyway.
You don't think that any of their supporters are likely to upset at how quickly that promise was ditched?You know the answer to that as well as I do.
Tell me IC, how can you develop and renew by cutting investment and imposing further austerity?No, the powerhouse was a blanket for more austerity measures. If you remember, I am actually a supporter of reducing the country's deficit but alongside cutting costs I would like to see plans for development and renewal.
Encouraging ambition and optimism in those with talent and ability, who might none the less lack unstoppable self-belief is surely essential. I wasn't talking about the tiny minority of the highest achievers, although encouragement to them won't do any harm. And it's not just about trying to imbue some hint of motivation to those who lack any, although that would be an awesome achievement were it possible. The vast majority of people fall somewhere between those two extremes and it's the task of everyone to lend their efforts to motivate and encourage everyone according to their particular needs.Nobody needs to encourage the ambitious and motivated, they will nearly always do well - it's raising the aspirations of those who have none which is the challenge and very few on any side have any ideas for this.
I agree. Were EMAs previously not tied to results and effort?In my frontline experience, the two policies I see/saw working are 1) EMA (educational maintenance allowance) which has to be tied to results and effort
I remember that having Maths and English Grade C was obligatory when I went to college in 1980. Had that been dropped? Not being in education, I may have missed that.and 2) not allowing students to progress from GCSE to A level or University unless they have a minimum C in English and Maths.
~ Just who and what are they post-Brexit?
~No, she wasn't. She was a luke-warm supporter of remain.
~ Continue or abandon what?
~ Which was the Tories' #1 economic electoral position just last year.
~ You don't think that any of their supporters are likely to upset at how quickly that promise was ditched?
~Tell me IC, how can you develop and renew by cutting investment and imposing further austerity?
~ Encouraging ambition and optimism in those with talent and ability, who might none the less lack unstoppable self-belief is surely essential. I wasn't talking about the tiny minority of the highest achievers, although encouragement to them won't do any harm. And it's not just about trying to imbue some hint of motivation to those who lack any, although that would be an awesome achievement were it possible. The vast majority of people fall somewhere between those two extremes and it's the task of everyone to lend their efforts to motivate and encourage everyone according to their particular needs.
~I agree. Were EMAs previously not tied to results and effort?
~I remember that having Maths and English Grade C was obligatory when I went to college in 1980. Had that been dropped? Not being in education, I may have missed that.
[~ Tell me IC, how can you develop and renew by cutting investment and imposing further austerity?
Public services are cut to the bone. Where do you think all this overspending is taking place? What unnecessary expenditure do you think needs cutting?OK, to try and answer this now I have time. I feel it is possible, dependent on the country where it is being enacted. I am a big believe in budgetary management especially where costs have risen astronomically. Speaking generally, I believe the focus of austerity should be about reducing overspending and cutting back on unnecessary expenditure.
Sorry IC, that sounds like sloganising. Without giving details we'd have to assume you don't really know where those costs should be reduced. If you don't know what those are, why do you assume they exist?There are priorities that have to be worked around such as defence, health and education but there are also even here ways that costs should be reduced where possible.
What makes you believe that to be true? Can you point to anywhere that has improved public services by cutting spending on it?austerity, like spending if targeted could work.
Public services are cut to the bone. Where do you think all this overspending is taking place? What unnecessary expenditure do you think needs cutting?
~ Sorry IC, that sounds like sloganising. Without giving details we'd have to assume you don't really know where those costs should be reduced. If you don't know what those are, why do you assume they exist?
~What makes you believe that to be true? Can you point to anywhere that has improved public services by cutting spending on it?
I'm not saying blanket austerity is the ideal Andy, but the alternative of continuing with a huge and ever growing budget deficit is not one I want to keep handing down to future generations.
I agree with that, but what dealing with excessive spend on contractors, agencies etc requires is proper policing and regulation and that requires money to be invested in the staff to do it.
Increasing investment in monitoring would reap benefits, but the government prefers to see private companies profiting and blame the overspend on the local management of public services.
It's central government policies that have created the overspend, but it's all too easy for them to scapegoat the little people implementing their failed initiatives.
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