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Hamas being Hamas... Keeping the fight going... Even in a Pandemic

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Digger said:
So what?
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That you can't understand is telling.

It was Ottoman territory. Ottoman citizens.

Then British. Citizens of the mandate.

Then the partition.

One side decided on war. The other side won the war.

Israeli citizens.

Palestinians were effectively a People without a state.

West Bank went Jordanian, Gaza Egyptian.

Neither a state.
 
Fledermaus said:
It never was "their own land".

It was Egyptian occupied until the Israelis occupied it and later ceded it to the Palestinians.

And your analogy fails. The United States is a distinct sovereign state.
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The fact that Palestine does not have a history as a sovereign state is neither here nor there. It is a piss poor justification for the settlements. It does not refute any of the legal or moral arguments against the settlements, or change the fact that Israel cannot expect peace until their war crimes stop.
 
Fledermaus said:
That you can't understand is telling.

It was Ottoman territory. Ottoman citizens.

Then British. Citizens of the mandate.

Then the partition.

One side decided on war. The other side won the war.

Israeli citizens.

Palestinians were effectively a People without a state.

West Bank went Jordanian, Gaza Egyptian.

Neither a state.
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I'm still waiting for you to show how any of this has any bearing on the argument at hand. Yes, Palestine does not have a history as a sovereign state. It is a piece of land that has been controlled by one empire or another for thousands of years. Then it was land controlled by egypt and Jordan. Then there were a series of wars, and now it is occupied by a client state of the American empire.

So what?

How does this make the struggle of the Palestinian people any less legitimate? How does it make the settlements built on occupied territory any less of a war crime?
 
Digger said:
The fact that Palestine does not have a history as a sovereign state is neither here nor there. It is a piss poor justification for the settlements. It does not refute any of the legal or moral arguments against the settlements, or change the fact that Israel cannot expect peace until their war crimes stop.
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Did I say the non state issue justified anything?

No.

Simple facts appear to bother you.
 
Digger said:
I'm still waiting for you to show how any of this has any bearing on the argument at hand. Yes, Palestine does not have a history as a sovereign state. It is a piece of land that has been controlled by one empire or another for thousands of years. Then it was land controlled by egypt and Jordan. Then there were a series of wars, and now it is occupied by a client state of the American empire.

So what?

How does this make the struggle of the Palestinian people any less legitimate? How does it make the settlements built on occupied territory any less of a war crime?
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A client state of the US?

:lamo
 
Digger said:
The fact that Palestine does not have a history as a sovereign state is neither here nor there. It is a piss poor justification for the settlements. It does not refute any of the legal or moral arguments against the settlements, or change the fact that Israel cannot expect peace until their war crimes stop.
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As long as Islam exists, Israel cannot expect peace.

Seems you are unaware of Islamic doctrine,
They have orders from God to kill the Jews.
 
Digger said:
I'm still waiting for you to show how any of this has any bearing on the argument at hand. Yes, Palestine does not have a history as a sovereign state. It is a piece of land that has been controlled by one empire or another for thousands of years. Then it was land controlled by egypt and Jordan. Then there were a series of wars, and now it is occupied by a client state of the American empire.

So what?

How does this make the struggle of the Palestinian people any less legitimate? How does it make the settlements built on occupied territory any less of a war crime?
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1. Because the Palestinians since the beginning have not been fighting for independence but for Israel’s destruction. Still explicitly Hamas’ objective and the only set of objectives consistent with PLO behaviour. So your entire premise is wrong, the “Palestinin struggle” is not legitimate and is in fact an attempted crime against humanity.

2. Israeli communities in the WB are not war crimes. They were permitted under international law through the Mandate and that legal right has never been (and cannot be) removed now that the territory is under Israeli control.

3. The whole discussion of annexation is flawed.

First, Palestinian demographics are largely lies, as with everything the PLO does. There is every reason to believe a full annexation of the WB, giving full rights to all people living there, would not eliminate Jewish sovereignty. I don’t support that, but facts are important.

Second, annexation of some territory to allow for separation of populations would not have any actual negative impact on the viability of a Palestinian state in the future when they abandon their core objective of destroying Israel and actually turn their nationalism into some positive internal movement. The nonsense about how annexation of Jerusalem or Israeli communities in the WB or the Jordan valley would impact on viability is a lie.
 
CJ 2.0 said:
1. Because the Palestinians since the beginning have not been fighting for independence but for Israel’s destruction. Still explicitly Hamas’ objective and the only set of objectives consistent with PLO behaviour. So your entire premise is wrong, the “Palestinin struggle” is not legitimate and is in fact an attempted crime against humanity.

2. Israeli communities in the WB are not war crimes. They were permitted under international law through the Mandate and that legal right has never been (and cannot be) removed now that the territory is under Israeli control.

3. The whole discussion of annexation is flawed.

First, Palestinian demographics are largely lies, as with everything the PLO does. There is every reason to believe a full annexation of the WB, giving full rights to all people living there, would not eliminate Jewish sovereignty. I don’t support that, but facts are important.

Second, annexation of some territory to allow for separation of populations would not have any actual negative impact on the viability of a Palestinian state in the future when they abandon their core objective of destroying Israel and actually turn their nationalism into some positive internal movement. The nonsense about how annexation of Jerusalem or Israeli communities in the WB or the Jordan valley would impact on viability is a lie.
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Here is the question: If the Palestinian territory’s back in 1947-1948 had been allowed to form a country without outside interference, would it have chosen a Jewish Nationality or would it have followed the will of the majority of the population in the territory?
 
Fledermaus said:
Please.

Buy all means.

Continue to dishonestly imply intent that isn't there.
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No, you're right. I bow to your claim that the facts you were presenting were completely irrelevant and not intended to have any bearing on the conversation at hand. Palestine has never been a sovereign state. And that fact has no relevance. Sorry for assuming that you thought the facts you were presenting were relevant.

What were we talking about again?
 
Digger said:
No, you're right. I bow to your claim that the facts you were presenting were completely irrelevant and not intended to have any bearing on the conversation at hand. Palestine has never been a sovereign state. And that fact has no relevance.

What were we talking about again?
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Please continue to ignore history.

It was you that invoked the "Palestinian" card.

And I responded to that. Not the West Bank settlements that WOULD NOT be an issues if the "Palestinians" had chosen peace instead of war.

I believe the only settlements.that should remain be the ones that predated the 1948 war. And that the settlers be allowed dual citizenship once the Palestinians get their heads out their asses and create a nation/state.
 
Digger said:
No, you're right. I bow to your claim that the facts you were presenting were completely irrelevant and not intended to have any bearing on the conversation at hand. Palestine has never been a sovereign state. And that fact has no relevance. Sorry for assuming that you thought the facts you were presenting were relevant.

What were we talking about again?
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Flendermaous has trouble understanding

We get it
 
Fledermaus said:
Pandemic slows, but not stops, Hamas' terrorism industry

Hamas headquarters in the Gaza Strip is working around the clock to try and recruit operatives in the West Bank while for the time being, health authorities have succeeded in preventing an outbreak in the crowded coastal enclave.

Kudos for keeping the virus at bay....

But they are still assholes for continuing their terrorist ways.

https://www.israelhayom.com/2020/05/15/pandemic-slows-but-not-stops-hamas-terrorism-industry/
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Israel killed 7 in Syria amongst the virus 2 days ago so you can kiss The blame game goodbye

Airstrike attributed to Israel said to kill 7 Iran-backed fighters in east Syria | The Times of Israel
 
Digger said:
The Romans called it palestine before the ottoman empire, and the British called it palestine afterwards. It's palestine.

Palestine - HISTORY

The UN calls it occupied. The EU calls in occupied. The world court calls it occupied. It's occupied.

Palestinian territories - Wikipedia

This is such level one bull****. Does anyone have something to say on the subject that isn't a talking point that I debunked 15 years ago?
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The point I was made is that it cannot be "occupied Palestinian land" because the palestinians never owned that land in the first place.
Also, as already been said palestine is area not a country/state.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
Here is the question: If the Palestinian territory’s back in 1947-1948 had been allowed to form a country without outside interference, would it have chosen a Jewish Nationality or would it have followed the will of the majority of the population in the territory?
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Huh?

The territory itself would have done nothing. It is just rocks and dirt.

I suspect you mean if all the people there collectively decided, but if you do that why don’t you take it to the actual conclusion. If it were a “pure democracy” and the will of 50%+1 would have absolutely prevailed, today we would have a 100% Jew free country where the Jews were either killed or cleansed.

As it is we have an excellent outcome. A sovereign Jewish state which has thrived, and a Palestinian rump that could still become a state if the people there move on from the central purpose of Palestinian Nationalism (which is the destruction of Israel, not sovereignty)

Interestingly, your response was a total dodge and didn’t engage with anything I wrote at all.
 
CJ 2.0 said:
Huh?

The territory itself would have done nothing. It is just rocks and dirt.

I suspect you mean if all the people there collectively decided, but if you do that why don’t you take it to the actual conclusion. If it were a “pure democracy” and the will of 50%+1 would have absolutely prevailed, today we would have a 100% Jew free country where the Jews were either killed or cleansed.

As it is we have an excellent outcome. A sovereign Jewish state which has thrived, and a Palestinian rump that could still become a state if the people there move on from the central purpose of Palestinian Nationalism (which is the destruction of Israel, not sovereignty)
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Here is the question: why were the Arabs living the Palestinian Territories not consulted back in 1947-48?
 
Digger said:
1) um, ok.

2) is that a sincere question? The israeli settlements aren't just Israelis moving into Palestine and living there mixed with the Palestinian population. It's taking occupied Palestinian land, kicking the Palestinians off of it, and building walled cities for israeli citizens. If you don't see why that's illegal, read this.

International law and Israeli settlements - Wikipedia
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Again it cannot be occupied because they never owned it in the first place, and the arabs are the ones who trying to kicking the Jews out since 48' and before.
Yes it's sincere question, what is the problem of Jews living in palestinian country? In Israel there arab cities and arab localities, why it cannot be the same there? Due to the walls? We can break the walls
 
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