Gunter Grass of the SS

[Jack Hays]

Sometimes the truth takes a long time to come out, especially when someone tries hard to hide it. But Gunter Grass was an SS veteran. I wonder how he felt while watching The Odessa File?

Günter Grass, German author and Nobel laureate, dies at 87


His novels made him known around the world as the moral conscience of 20th-century Germany.

". . . . Political conservatives in Germany called on him to return his literary honors. And many German intellectuals, including his erstwhile allies on the left, distanced themselves from Mr. Grass. This was especially the case following his publication in 2010 of a poem, “What Must Be Said,” warning that Germany might be complicit in war crimes because it sold military equipment to Israel, and his criticism in 2013 of Chancellor Angela Merkel for having been in the East’s Free German Youth movement, the communist regime’s equivalent of the Hitler Youth.

The influential German weekly Der Spiegel said that Mr. Grass had “jumped the shark. His words have lost much of their weight.”. . . ."

 

[Wiggen]

Gee, a former member of the SS being critical of Israel. Now there's a shock.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Sometimes the truth takes a long time to come out, especially when someone tries hard to hide it. But Gunter Grass was an SS veteran. I wonder how he felt while watching The Odessa File?

Gee, a former member of the SS being critical of Israel. Now there's a shock.

To be accurate, he was a member of the Waffen SS after being drafted into the 10th SS Panzer Division, not the SS itself.

The Waffen SS is not the same as the SS itself, nor were the SS Panzer divisions.

It helps when the entire truth is told, not just part of the truth.

 

[Jack Hays]

To be accurate, he was a member of the Waffen SS after being drafted into the 10th SS Panzer Division, not the SS itself.

The Waffen SS is not the same as the SS itself, nor were the SS Panzer divisions.

It helps when the entire truth is told, not just part of the truth.

Fair enough, but Grass' view was perhaps not as nuanced as yours since he obviously tried to hide his affiliation.

The Waffen-SS (German pronunciation: [ˈvafən.ɛs.ɛs], Armed SS) was created as the armed wing of the Nazi Party's Schutzstaffel (SS, "Protective Squadron"),[SUP][2][/SUP] and gradually developed into a multi-ethnic and multi-national military force of Nazi Germany.[SUP][3][/SUP]
The Waffen-SS grew from three regiments to over 38 divisions during World War II, and served alongside the Heer (regular army) but was never formally part of it.[SUP][4][/SUP] Adolf Hitler resisted integrating the Waffen-SS into the army, as it was to remain the armed wing of the Party and to become an elite police force once the war was won.[SUP][5][/SUP] Prior to the war, it was under the control of the SS Führungshauptamt (SS operational command office) beneath Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler. Upon mobilization its tactical control was given to the High Command of the Armed Forces (Oberkommando der Wehrmacht).[SUP][6]. . . .[/SUP]
At the post-war Nuremberg Trials the Waffen-SS was condemned as a criminal organization due to its connection to the Nazi Party and involvement in numerous war crimes. Waffen-SS veterans were denied many of the rights afforded to veterans who had served in the Heer (army), Luftwaffe (air force), or Kriegsmarine (navy). An exception was made for Waffen-SS conscripts sworn in after 1943, who were exempted because of their involuntary servitude.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Fair enough, but Grass' view was perhaps not as nuanced as yours since he obviously tried to hide his affiliation.

I am not saying they were boy scouts, or that he and others were not anti-semitic. Simply that being in the Waffen SS was not the same thing as being a regular member of the SS. Nothing more and nothing less.

 

[Wiggen]

To be accurate, he was a member of the Waffen SS after being drafted into the 10th SS Panzer Division, not the SS itself.

The Waffen SS is not the same as the SS itself, nor were the SS Panzer divisions.

It helps when the entire truth is told, not just part of the truth.

The Waffen SS and SS Panzer units.were stlll responsible for many atrocities. Oradour sur Glane and Malmedy are two that come immediately to mind. Google will produce many more. If telling the whole truth is important, then let's tell it. I'd class them a bit more seriously than 'not boy scouts'.

 

[Oozlefinch]

The Waffen SS and SS Panzer units.were stlll responsible for many atrocities. Oradour sur Glane and Malmedy are two that come immediately to mind. Google will produce many more. If telling the whole truth is important, then let's tell it. I'd class them a bit more seriously than 'not boy scouts'.

Those were generally exceptions, similar things happened in ragular Wehrmacht as well. And I am aware of many of the atrocities of the Waffen SS. But they were not on the level of what the SS itself had, where such was the rule and not the exception. Kind of like comparing the Red Army with the NKVD. Red Army units are also well known for their atrocities, but nowhere on the scale of the NKVD.

Do not try to read into what I said.

 

[Wiggen]

Those were generally exceptions, similar things happened in ragular Wehrmacht as well. And I am aware of many of the atrocities of the Waffen SS. But they were not on the level of what the SS itself had, where such was the rule and not the exception. Kind of like comparing the Red Army with the NKVD. Red Army units are also well known for their atrocities, but nowhere on the scale of the NKVD.

Do not try to read into what I said.

I read what you said as chastising me for thinking this guy's membership in the SS was a big deal. Waffen SS troops and Panzer units were fanatics who took a personal oath of loyalty to Adolph Hitler. To excuse them as not being as bad as other SS troops doesn't seem much of a defense to me.

 

[Oozlefinch]

I read what you said as chastising me for thinking this guy's membership in the SS was a big deal. Waffen SS troops and Panzer units were fanatics who took a personal oath of loyalty to Adolph Hitler. To excuse them as not being as bad as other SS troops doesn't seem much of a defense to me.

I did no such thing, I was simply correcting a misconception. Nothing more and nothing less.

And everybody in Germany gave a personal oath to Der Paper hangar, not just the SS.

"I swear by God this sacred oath that I shall render unconditional obedience to Adolf Hitler, the Führer of the German Reich, supreme commander of the armed forces, and that I shall at all times be prepared, as a brave soldier, to give my life for this oath."

That is the oath given by all members of the German Army, not just the Waffen SS.

And I excused nothing, I was simply correcting the mistake that the individual being discussed was a member of the SS, he was not.

 

[Wiggen]

I did no such thing, I was simply correcting a misconception. Nothing more and nothing less.

And everybody in Germany gave a personal oath to Der Paper hangar, not just the SS.



That is the oath given by all members of the German Army, not just the Waffen SS.

And I excused nothing, I was simply correcting the mistake that the individual being discussed was a member of the SS, he was not.

So, the Waffen SS was not the SS? So SS Panzer divisions were not SS? Surely their name suggests that they were, in fact, SS. Certainly their conduct makes it difficult to distinguish between these ersatz SS and the real thing.

 

[Oozlefinch]

So, the Waffen SS was not the SS? So SS Panzer divisions were not SS? Surely their name suggests that they were, in fact, SS. Certainly their conduct makes it difficult to distinguish between these ersatz SS and the real thing.

If you can't comprehend that they are not the same, then there is no reason to continue discussing this.

 

[Chagos]

The ongoing argument is pointless.

From 1939 onwards all prior factions and groupings of the SS that had held individual name suffixes in accordance with their functions, were gradually merged into the (one) Waffen SS.

Grass was not a hardened Nazi nor an ardent anti semite. He was drafted as a kid at age 17 in 1944, like everybody else was asked to choose preference of unit (not necessarily complied with at that stage of "the Reich"), chose U-boats and was denied on grounds of there understandably not being much of those left.

By then the Waffen-SS had long since been part of the Wehrmacht and with general defeat approaching Germany whole bataillons of "normal" soldiers were integrated into the Waffen-SS without their having a say in it.

To demonstrate: From 1943 to end of the war the total number of soldiers had sunk from over 9 to under 8 million, the Waffen-SS had nearly doubled from 450,000 to 830,000 in the same space of time. Basically because the previous principle of taking only volunteers had been abandoned in favor of conscripts (as well) that were simply assigned to it.

Grass was still a 17 year old kid when the war ended, his main acts of heroism and "savagery" having consisted of running away and finally being wounded about two weeks before the war ended. Active duty (after "basic") was hardly more than 2 months.

His only "crime" (if one can call it that) was having kept mum about a fate he shared with thousands of other German kids.

Criticizing Israeli politics is not anti-semitism by default, there are plenty in Israel itself doing that.

So simmer down everyone.

 

[Chagos]

So, the Waffen SS was not the SS? So SS Panzer divisions were not SS? Surely their name suggests that they were, in fact, SS. Certainly their conduct makes it difficult to distinguish between these ersatz SS and the real thing.

There were, by that time, no distinctions.

From camp guards to police units to tank and infantry bataillons bearing the SS emblem, ALL were Waffen-SS.

There was, as pointed out in my previous post, no other SS.

You are correct.

 

[Chagos]

If you can't comprehend that they are not the same, then there is no reason to continue discussing this.

You are mistaken.

 

[Oozlefinch]

You are mistaken.

You can't force comprehension upon somebody.

I understand the difference between the SS and the Waffen SS, he refuses to see any difference. You can not have a conversation with somebody who refuses to see they are not the same thing.

 

[joko104]

Why would anyone be surprised the Nobel Prize was given to an SS Nazi?

Does ANYONE take the Nobel Prize seriously anymore?

 

[LeoVlaming]

There were, by that time, no distinctions.

From camp guards to police units to tank and infantry bataillons bearing the SS emblem, ALL were Waffen-SS.

There was, as pointed out in my previous post, no other SS.

You are correct.

With all due respect, but that is nonsense.
First of all, the Allgemeine SS, the Waffen SS, the Totenkopfverbände, and the various SS-HauptÂmter were all different and seperate organizations. It is of course true that some people moved from one to the other. But differences remained.
Second, even the Waffen SS was an organization with very different units many of whom were composed of soldiers who were not even German.
I think you have no idea of the complexity of Nazi-organizations.

 

[Chagos]

You can't force comprehension upon somebody.

I understand the difference between the SS and the Waffen SS, he refuses to see any difference. You can not have a conversation with somebody who refuses to see they are not the same thing.

As I pointed out in my post, from 1939 onwards they very much were the same thing.

Only difference being that the principle of voluntariness as qualification of membership had later been abandoned with massive depletion of forces.

Thus allowing for Grass to get himself conscripted into the Waffen-SS.

 

[Chagos]

With all due respect, but that is nonsense.
First of all, the Allgemeine SS, the Waffen SS, the Totenkopfverbände, and the various SS-HauptÂmter were all different and seperate organizations. It is of course true that some people moved from one to the other. But differences remained.
Second, even the Waffen SS was an organization with very different units many of whom were composed of soldiers who were not even German.
I think you have no idea of the complexity of Nazi-organizations.

Die Waffen-SS wurde schließlich ab Ende 1939 aus heterogenen Teilen aufgebaut. Binnen weniger Monate wurde sie auf dreieinhalb Divisionen erweitert: die Verfügungsdivision, die später in „Das Reich“ umbenannt wurde, die aus den Totenkopfverbänden hervorgegangene Totenkopfdivision mit zunächst 18.000 Mann und die aus Kräften der Ordnungspolizei gebildete Polizeidivision. Die Leibstandarte wurde zu einem verstärkten motorisierten Infanterieregiment ausgebaut.

Der Begriff Waffen-SS wurde Anfang November 1939 informell in den Sprachgebrauch der SS-Administration eingeführt und setzte sich etwa innerhalb eines Jahres gegenüber den alten Bezeichnungen Verfügungstruppe und Totenkopfverbände durch.

Mit Befehl des Reichsführer SS vom 1. Dezember 1939,[9] wurden folgende Verbände, Dienststellen und Ämter zur Waffen-SS verschmolzen:

SS-V-Division
SS-Totenkopf-Division
SS-Polizei Division
SS-Junkerschulen
SS-Totenkopf-Standarten
Ergänzungsamt der Waffen-SS (SS-Erg.Amt)
Waffen- und Geräteamt der Waffen-SS (SS W. u. G.Amt)
Personalamt der Waffen-SS (SS-Pers.Amt)
Amt R. V. der Waffen-SS (Amt RV)
Fürsorge- und Versorgungsamt der Waffen-SS (SS-F. u. V.Amt)
Sanitätsamt der Waffen-SS (SS-San.Amt)
Verwaltungsamt der Waffen-SS (SS-V.Amt)
SS-Gericht
Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler

Waffen-SS

 

[LeoVlaming]

Waffen-SS

Thank you for illustrating my point that the Waffen SS in 1939 (when it was a relatively small force) involved only very small groups and that the Allgemeine SS, the Totenkopfverbände and the various SS-hauptamte didn't form part of it.

 

[Chagos]

Thank you for illustrating my point that the Waffen SS in 1939 (when it was a relatively small force) involved only very small groups and that the Allgemeine SS, the Totenkopfverbände and the various SS-hauptamte didn't form part of it.

Well, it's obviously escaping you that I'm talking of 1939 onwards.

You might also want to point me to where I confirm that Totenkopfverbände were not part of it (read!!).

As for Hauptämter being distinctly independent, you might to want to research more what functions they followed. They weren't combatively operative in field or street, they were (chief) bodies of administration.

As such the SS-Gerichte (listed), actually under the administration of Hauptamt SS-Gerichte, required all presiding judges to be of the Waffen-SS.

As were all SS-ers automatically after 1939.

Whether they were actually ducking blood and bullets in the front line especially towards the ending of the war, pushing pencils in an "Amt" or beating the bejesus out of camp inmates to the point of execution. All of them were by then Waffen-SS members, from camp and prison guard to reluctant conscript in combat.

 

[Wiggen]

You can't force comprehension upon somebody.

I understand the difference between the SS and the Waffen SS, he refuses to see any difference. You can not have a conversation with somebody who refuses to see they are not the same thing.

No, you deny that the Waffen SS was SS. When you lock 600 French men, women, and children in a church and then set it on fire, you lose any claim to a distinction. The SS were scum. All of them.

 

[jet57]

To be accurate, he was a member of the Waffen SS after being drafted into the 10th SS Panzer Division, not the SS itself.

The Waffen SS is not the same as the SS itself, nor were the SS Panzer divisions.

It helps when the entire truth is told, not just part of the truth.

The Waffen SS was the armed version of the SS. They were the same SS, Hitler wanted them out there to show the Wehrmacht up. The Waffen SS were responsible for war crimes and things that the Wehrmacht refused to do. Many higher ups in the Wehrmacht were enemies of Hitler though he did not know it.

 

[jet57]

Thank you for illustrating my point that the Waffen SS in 1939 (when it was a relatively small force) involved only very small groups and that the Allgemeine SS, the Totenkopfverbände and the various SS-hauptamte didn't form part of it.

In 1935 the Waffen SS was organized into battalion strength.

 

[LeoVlaming]

Well, it's obviously escaping you that I'm talking of 1939 onwards.

You might also want to point me to where I confirm that Totenkopfverbände were not part of it (read!!).

As for Hauptämter being distinctly independent, you might to want to research more what functions they followed. They weren't combatively operative in field or street, they were (chief) bodies of administration.

As such the SS-Gerichte (listed), actually under the administration of Hauptamt SS-Gerichte, required all presiding judges to be of the Waffen-SS.

As were all SS-ers automatically after 1939.

Whether they were actually ducking blood and bullets in the front line especially towards the ending of the war, pushing pencils in an "Amt" or beating the bejesus out of camp inmates to the point of execution. All of them were by then Waffen-SS members, from camp and prison guard to reluctant conscript in combat.

You simply have no idea what you are talking about.