Guns, Sheepdogs, Nutcases and Victims...

[Goshin]

The thread on the Binghamton murders got long and crazy, but brought up some fundamental concepts that need to be addressed, chiefly about guns and the people who carry them, and those who don't.

Dave Grossman was cited, in this article: On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman

Captain Courtesy dismissed it as overly simplistic. I agree on the charge of Grossman over-simplifying the issue, but I think we shouldn't throw it out entirely.

Almost no one is 100% sheep, wolf or sheepdog, but those archetypes do help us understand the reason why some people take the positions they take on these issues.


Some people do have an irrational of weapons, its called hoplophobia. I have a sister who is a hoplophobe...(I love her anyway, btw.) Some people don't want to think about self-protection or are unable to imagine themselves engaging in self-defense successfully. Some believe that as long as they project goodwill to all, they will not be harmed. Others just flat refuse to believe it could happen to them. These are people much like the "sheep" of Grossman's analogy.

Certainly police officers (good ones, anyway), soldiers and first-responders are the "sheepdogs" of society, whose job it is to protect and serve the citizenry. Those who have the proper motives and do the right thing, anyway.

Most people don't slot neatly into one of these categories...a given individual might have some traits of any or all three categories. The weakness of analogy is that it can never perfectly translate reality.

A lot of posters in the original thread expressed their frustration that no armed citizen was present to stop the shooter before he committed mass murder, and that the numerous victims didn't overpower the shooter. I share that frustration, but we need to keep a few things in mind:

Never blame the victim. Even if the victim may have made some poor choices, even did something stupid, the fault ultimately lies with the predator who took advantage of them. A rape victim may have made some bad choices and took stupid risks, and will have to live with that knowlege, but it is the rapist who is truly at fault.

Not everyone is cut out to be a "sheepdog", or wants to be. This one took me a while to figure out, and longer to accept. In times past I'd get very frustrated with people who had no intrest in self-defense, or had an it-can't-happen-to-me attitude. People who refused to get appropriate training or own a weapon, yet thought they'd "somehow" do something if the moment came.

I came to realize that some people simply don't see the need and are not intrested. I still worry about them, but I don't fight them over it. If you don't think you should carry a gun, then I don't think you should either. If you're not willing to get educated on situational awareness, threat evaluation and avoidance, shoot/no-shoot, and practice to functional competence, then you probably should not carry.

Some people freeze when they detect a serious threat, like an active shooter. It's their nature, and many of them are not intrested in getting the training to cure that problem, and we can't force them to.

Other people react by attacking the threat, charging the shooter, moving in aggressively. This may be simply part of their character, or a trained-in characteristic, depending on the person's background.

If the SHTF, the former type of person is lucky if they have a friend who is of the latter type on hand.

I think all of us who have the capacity to deal with violence (its easier to just say "sheepdog", even if it is a flawed analogy), have a responsibility to protect those who have no such capacity.

Some of us feel obligated to be ready and equipped to deal with trouble and protect the innocent. For those of you who think this attitude is paranoid and unnecessary, I'd ask you realize that we mean you no harm; that many of us would risk our lives for you or your family; and that IF the day should come when you face a deadly threat, you might be glad to have a "sheepdog" nearby.

Not everyone has to be a "sheepdog"; variety is the spice of life. My best friend when I was in my 20's was a "sheep" by Grossman's definiton: he had no capacity for dealing with violence and no intrest in self-defense. This frustrated and worried me at the time, but he was a great guy. He taught me about art, film, music and literature... I taught him how to talk to girls. :rock :mrgreen: He was like a brother to me...and then he lost his life in a robbery at his place of business. He cooperated fully, and his reward was to be kidnapped, taken off to the woods, and shot in the back of the head.

It was a terrible loss, and dealing with it took years. I lamented that I hadn't been there to protect him; I was upset that he'd never listened to me about self-protection issues so that he might have been able to save himself. In the end I had to accept that he was who he was, and he lived and died by his own choices, and I couldn't change him. I still wish I'd been there; we would have had a fighting chance at least.


We need to have some mutual understanding on both sides of this issue. Those who are uncomfortable with weapons and those who carry them need to know:
1. Don't fear a law-abiding armed citizen. The record on concealed-carry permit holders is excellent, the rate at which they "snap" or commit violent crimes is virtually zero. The last time I checked, CCW holders had a better record on not shooting the wrong person than police, too.
2. Realize that 90 million Americans consider the Second Amendment to be just as vital and important a Constitutional right as the First Amendment. Try not to step on my rights, I'll try not to step on yours.
3. Every state that has enacted shall-issue concealed carry laws has experienced a significant reduction in violent crime. The presence of armed citizens makes YOU and yours safer.


Those of us who are pro-gun need to remember some things too:
1. Never, ever blame the victim. Even if they put themselves in harm's way and then handled it poorly, the perp is still to blame.
2. Not everyone is cut out to pack a gun, and not everyone wants to. As long as they are willing to respect our right to go armed, we need to respect their right to go unarmed.
3. It's "walk softly and carry a big stick", not "Talk loudly about how big your stick is." :mrgreen:

That's my two bits.

G.

(Come to think of it, this "mutual understanding" I'm shooting for is probably about as likely as Mahmoud Achmadinijad joining hands and singing Kumbaya with Ariel Sharon, but what the heck, worth a shot...:mrgreen

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

The thread on the Binghamton murders got long and crazy, but brought up some fundamental concepts that need to be addressed, chiefly about guns and the people who carry them, and those who don't.

Dave Grossman was cited, in this article: On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman

Captain Courtesy dismissed it as overly simplistic. I agree on the charge of Grossman over-simplifying the issue, but I think we shouldn't throw it out entirely.

My sentiments exactly brother. The only caveat I would like to reinforce is that re the article and my position in particular is the mindset, not the tool, This was and always has been my point. The gun, having one or not, to me is irrelevant to the mindset in Grossman's essay.



Of course no one is 100% of any of the three archetypes, and I believe Gorssman covers that in the last paragraph. People are people, they are different in every way, true. I think however both nature and nurture take a role in where on this scale one resides.


Hoplophobes I usually have found fear the crime more than the tool as well, however, they project the action onto the tool. They believe that all it takes is there just to be "no more guns" and we would be a peaceful world, when the fact is. Man has always found ways to kill his fellow man. The "sheep" in this instance do not want to consider this.

Sheepdogs are not limited to government appointed officers, first responders, soldiers and the like, but can and most often are, the very people themselves. Our founding fathers envisioned an armed society that could muster a militia from all of its people. They did not view us as a "Sheep society" but rather an individual rugged one that valued Life and Liberty


No Analogy can ever be perfect imo, however what we can gleam from Grossman's article is that we have a choice, and history has shown that when the "sheep" get pushed enough, they will eventually take on the markings of the "sheepdog". Pearl harbor, 911, flight 93, the LA riots (korean shop owners) and suzanna Gratia (see you tube) are but of the few examples I have in mind.

YouTube - Suzanna Gratia Hupp explains meaning of 2nd Amendment!


You state in your essay here:

A lot of posters in the original thread expressed their frustration that no armed citizen was present to stop the shooter before he committed mass murder, and that the numerous victims didn't overpower the shooter. I share that frustration, but we need to keep a few things in mind:

Never blame the victim. Even if the victim may have made some poor choices, even did something stupid, the fault ultimately lies with the predator who took advantage of them. A rape victim may have made some bad choices and took stupid risks, and will have to live with that knowlege, but it is the rapist who is truly at fault.

And I agree, the blame is not on the victims. But what in the AAR, the "lessons learned" if you will can we take from this tragedy, that is just one in a long line of these things?

Perhaps we are doing something wrong, when our kids are charged with assault in 6th grade for a schoolyard fight, or that we are lectured to never put up a fight when accosted by a "wolf"?


We all have "sheepdog" potential. Even your friend. (RIP) but it takes desire, opportunity, education.


I have taught martial arts in the past, and still train today, in both Aikido, and Brazillian Jiu Jitsu among other pastimes.... And I have seen all sorts come through the doors. I also have worked as an assistant trainer in combat pistol and CQB Carbine courses. And you see all sorts coming through. From the meekest, to the toughest, we all have that spark, that willingness to want to defend our very lives. We as a society have been so protected though, people do not think they need it....

And when the "wolf" comes and you are not prepared, I have seen people shrink I have seen people rise to the occasion. (again this is not about fighting the wolf here, but the mindset to deal with the situation) and more often then not, I have seen people decide not to be "sheep" anymore after an incident.


That said, I am truly sorry to hear about your friend. May I ask. had he ever been accosted like this before? What made him decide to go with the man? If this is too much, I fully understand. Thanks




I think we agree on not fighting people to do the things you and I think are needed for our own saftey and theirs. What I see though in these discussions often are these very same people chastizing us for choosing to protect ourselves, whether its with a gun, training, or both.

Other people react by attacking the threat, charging the shooter, moving in aggressively. This may be simply part of their character, or a trained-in characteristic, depending on the person's background.

If the SHTF, the former type of person is lucky if they have a friend who is of the latter type on hand.

You are absolutley correct in this observation. usually though that latter person is most often the one calling you a "vigilante"

I think all of us who have the capacity to deal with violence (its easier to just say "sheepdog", even if it is a flawed analogy), have a responsibility to protect those who have no such capacity.

Agreed.

Some of us feel obligated to be ready and equipped to deal with trouble and protect the innocent. For those of you who think this attitude is paranoid and unnecessary, I'd ask you realize that we mean you no harm; that many of us would risk our lives for you or your family; and that IF the day should come when you face a deadly threat, you might be glad to have a "sheepdog" nearby.

Hear! Hear!

We need to have some mutual understanding on both sides of this issue. Those who are uncomfortable with weapons and those who carry them need to know:
1. Don't fear a law-abiding armed citizen. The record on concealed-carry permit holders is excellent, the rate at which they "snap" or commit violent crimes is virtually zero. The last time I checked, CCW holders had a better record on not shooting the wrong person than police, too.
2. Realize that 90 million Americans consider the Second Amendment to be just as vital and important a Constitutional right as the First Amendment. Try not to step on my rights, I'll try not to step on yours.
3. Every state that has enacted shall-issue concealed carry laws has experienced a significant reduction in violent crime. The presence of armed citizens makes YOU and yours safer.


Those of us who are pro-gun need to remember some things too:
1. Never, ever blame the victim. Even if they put themselves in harm's way and then handled it poorly, the perp is still to blame.
2. Not everyone is cut out to pack a gun, and not everyone wants to. As long as they are willing to respect our right to go armed, we need to respect their right to go unarmed.
3. It's "walk softly and carry a big stick", not "Talk loudly about how big your stick is." :mrgreen:

That's my two bits.

G.

(Come to think of it, this "mutual understanding" I'm shooting for is probably about as likely as Mahmoud Achmadinijad joining hands and singing Kumbaya with Ariel Sharon, but what the heck, worth a shot...:mrgreen

This is a most excellent post, I may slightly disagree with some of the potential points you made, but otherwise, I fully agree.


Great job!

 

[stevenb]

A great view of alot of CCW holders.

 

[Voidwar]

Impressive example of writing and reasoning. Well Said Sir.

 

[Goshin]

That said, I am truly sorry to hear about your friend. May I ask. had he ever been accosted like this before? What made him decide to go with the man? If this is too much, I fully understand. Thanks

Chiefly, I think my friend was never able to mentally percieve himself as being capable of handling a life-or-death situation competently. He wasn't philosophically opposed to guns or self-defense; when we were hanging out there were a couple of near-incidents, after which he'd told me he was glad I was there and glad I was armed.

I tried to teach him some basic hand-to-hand, but he'd just shake his head and say "No, I'd never be able to keep my head well enough to remember any of that stuff." Offered to teach him to shoot, same reaction. I personally think he was wrong in his self-assessment... I'd seen him handle stressful situations successfully. He simply didn't believe in his own ability to learn to deal with violent threats.

When the robbery happened, his assumption of his own inability probably lead him to believe that cooperation was his best chance of survival. Instead it lead directly to his death... he arguably had at least one chance to run for it, and was apparently too afraid to take it.

This lead to a lot of bitter regrets for years to come. At times I was even angry AT my friend, for not at least trying to defend himself or escape. I learned to just accept what had happened, eventually... but that doesn't change the fact that I lost a friend, his mother lost her only child, and the world lost a young man who was surely a "bright light in the darkness".

This was in fact, the pivotal incident that lead to me going into law enforcement, then later becoming a self-protection instructor.

I still encourage people to learn about self-protection (I also teach classes in awareness/avoidance, hand to hand, defensive handgunning, etc) and to develop the survivor-mindset, but I just don't beat my head against brick walls anymore, I've learned that some people just won't listen.

Despite being a "sheep" where violence was concerned, my friend was otherwise an awesome person, and the world was a brighter place for his presence. This is all the more reason for those of us who are "sheepdogs" to be always ready and ever vigilant...I'm pretty sure we all know and love at least one "sheep".

As the historical code of knighthood said, "...to always protect that which is good, or weak, or holy." Maybe some will think that sounds overblown and pompous, but some will understand what I mean.