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Gun control measures, what would be acceptable to you?

Burger said, "The Gun Lobby’s interpretation of the Second Amendment is one of the greatest pieces of fraud, I repeat the word fraud, on the American People by special interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime. The real purpose of the Second Amendment was to ensure that state armies – the militia – would be maintained for the defense of the state. The very language of the Second Amendment refutes any argument that it was intended to guarantee every citizen an unfettered right to any kind of weapon he or she desires."

I should have been more clear. Burger argued that people don't have an individual right to own any kind of gun they want. From what I recall, this was also something Scalia agreed with and it was the consensus among historians and justices until the advent of the NRA and the gun lobby took control of the narrative and the Supreme Court ruled for the first time in 2008 that there was an individual right to own a firearm.




And burger lied.
The 2nd amendment clearly says the government has no authority to infringe on the Peoples right to keep and bear arms. And that is backed up by multiple quotes by the very people who founded this country.
 
They will never be mandated.

At some point they'll have to be. It really just depends on how much blood Republicans are willing to get all over their hands before they say enough is enough.
 
No Im using my computer, that's how you exercise your freedom of speech today. And you also use your mouth just like in the old days.

We're past muskets just like we're past type presses and quills.
Exactly.
 
To be clear, I'm not saying the 2nd amendment needs to be removed. I'm just saying it is irrelevant today. The reasons it existed in the 18th century don't exist today. It is about as relevant today as the third amendment, which says: "No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law."
Sorry but amendments don’t just stop being the law of the land just because you feel they are irrelevant.
 
At some point they'll have to be. It really just depends on how much blood Republicans are willing to get all over their hands before they say enough is enough.
Well, at some point, weapons that fire projectiles will be antiquated. So I guess you are correct.
 
And burger lied.
The 2nd amendment clearly says the government has no authority to infringe on the Peoples right to keep and bear arms. And that is backed up by multiple quotes by the very people who founded this country.
You have no credibility calling Burger "anti-second amendment." He approves of the amendment he just interprets it correctly.

Again, if you have an unfettered right to any kind of gun you want then why are automatic weapons outlawed? In fact, why can't you own rocket launchers? I mean, the Constitution doesn't really make any distinction in what's considered an "arm". Hell, shouldn't we all be allowed to own our own nuclear weapons? If not, then why not?
 
Sorry but amendments don’t just stop being the law of the land just because you feel they are irrelevant.

They remain laws, but many laws become irrelevant over time just like the third amendment. Technically there is still a law on the books in Kennesaw Georgia requiring all citizens to own guns. Do you really think that's relevant today?
 
You have no credibility calling Burger "anti-second amendment." He approves of the amendment he just interprets it correctly.

Again, if you have an unfettered right to any kind of gun you want then why are automatic weapons outlawed? In fact, why can't you own rocket launchers? I mean, the Constitution doesn't really make any distinction in what's considered an "arm". Hell, shouldn't we all be allowed to own our own nuclear weapons? If not, then why not?
No he doesn’t. And the fact that his opinion goes opposite of the people who wrote the constitution should be a clue.

Just because some courts violated the constitution does not mean it want a violation.
See a lot of typical soldier carrying around nuclear weapons.
 
So…are you using your type press or your quill when utilizing your freedom of speech?


That’s all I can think of when someone is going on about muskets.
Really? I usually just roll my eyes and say “not this stupid shit again”
 
Of course, but Burger's was the majority view at that time he said it and virtually all time before that.
Burger wasn't on the Court when he published this opinion. In Verdugo-Urquidez the year before Burger the citizen published his opinion the Court noted that the 2nd, like the 4th,
And yet that is precisely the argument I hear from gun nuts who think it is a violation of their 'rats' if the government dares to restrict high capacity magazines, or "bump stock" or even automatic rifles. I mean if you agree that the amendment doesn't provide unfettered right to own any kind of gun, then that's good. We agree. But then you have to wonder, where is the line drawn? If the Constitution doesn't explicitly state anything about gun types, then what's to prevent the government from prohibiting anything more powerful than a .22 caliber?
“The Court has held that “the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding,” District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U. S. 570, 582 (2008), and that this “ Second Amendment right is fully applicable to the States,” McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U. S. 742, 750 (2010). "

Caetano v Massachusetts, 2016.

SCOTUS has affirmed that the Second Amendment protects all "bearable arms" (Caetano v Massachusetts) "in common use for lawful purposes" (DC v Heller) or having a "reasonable relationship to the preservation and efficiency of a well regulated militia" (US v Miller) , and incorporates those protections against the states (Chicago v McDonald).

But that obviously isn't the case otherwise automatic weapons would be legal.
Heller was decided in 2008. Scalia noted that "long standing restrictions" would still be considered to be Constitutional, and Kavanaugh's dissent in Heller II concurred. Where we are now in 2022 is that all bearable arms in common use for lawful purposes are protected, which includes, according to the terminology in Caetano, AR-15s and every other type of firearm typically included in "assault weapons" bans.

NFA 1934 was a blatantly unconstitutional act, as the federal government wasn't granted any powers over the arms of the people.


In 1934, there had been no SCOTUS decisions where the federal government had successfully defended a federal law infringing the the right of the People to keep and bear arms. SCOTUS in Cruikshank had noted "The right to bear arms is not granted by the Constitution; neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence" and limited the applicability of the Second Amendment to the federal government. Regardless of the ability of the states to regulate firearms, SCOTUS had affirmed that the federal government had no Constitutional authority to do so.

In McCulloch v Maryland (1819), Chief Justice Marshall insisted that "should Congress, under the pretext of executing its powers, pass laws for the accomplishment of objects not entrusted to the government; it would become the painful duty of this tribunal . . . to say that such an act was not the law of the land." In United States v Darby, Justice Stone wrote: "Whatever their motive and purpose, regulations of commerce which do not infringe some constitutional prohibition are within the plenary power conferred on Congress by the Commerce Clause."


Since at the time of the passing of the NFA 1934 the right to keep and bear arms for lawful purposes had been affirmed by SCOTUS, any law which infringed that right using the Commerce Clause was unconstitutional, and not a power entrusted to the government, and thus not the law of the land.
Interpretation: The Commerce Clause | The National Constitution Center
constitutioncenter.org



And what is the Constitutional basis for determining who is and who isn't worthy to own a gun?
That I don't know off hand; that's a new topic for research. "What is the Constitutional basis of 18 USC 922g?
Thanks for those references, I'll look into those.
I exist but to serve. And argue.
 
How many are you ready to accept into your home? That is just damned nice of you.

How many what? Guns? What does this look like, an arsenal? I only need a couple.
 
Virtually everyone does have a gun, which is why we're the worst country in the world in terms of gun violence.

God Republicans are the dumbest people on the planet. They always want to do the worst possible thing to solve problems.

I'm not a republican.

But I'm trying to solve a different problem than you are.
 
? You want to take away modern weapons from law abiding gun owners and replace them with muskets? Isn't that what they had in those days? I must have missed the part where they said and in the future ak-47's and ar-15's will be exempt.

I wonder how the founding fathers would feel after watching us americans after a year and all the mass shootings. Do you think they would agree weapons of war were ok for the average citizen? I don't.
Weapons of war were exactly what they had in mind.

I can't believe people are still trotting out the "only muskets" argument. First, it only makes sense if you think that the First Amendment applies to documents written with a quill pen.

Second, the Supreme Court laid it to rest in 2008:

Some have made the argument, bordering on the frivolous, that only those arms in existence in the 18th century are protected by the Second Amendment. We do not interpret constitutional rights that way. Just as the First Amendment protects modern forms of communications,... and the Fourth Amendment applies to modern forms of search, ... the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding. DC v Heller, page 8
 
Then I guess Cornell Law School has some splainin to do:

"One approach to untangling the conflict has been to see if the lower federal courts have actually been following Miller. In Can the Simple Cite be Trusted?, Brannon Denning makes a persuasive argument that some lower courts have cited Miller for propositions which cannot reasonably be said to flow from Miller. But part of the problem with deciding whether the courts or the scholars are being faithful to Miller is that Miller is such an opaque opinion.

Miller grew out of a 1938 prosecution of two bootleggers (Jack Miller and Frank Layton) for violating the National Firearms Act by possessing a sawed-off shotgun without having paid the required federal tax. The federal district court dismissed the indictment on the grounds that the National Firearms Act violated the Second Amendment. Freed, Miller and Layton promptly absconded, and thus only the government's side was heard when the case was argued before the Supreme Court.

Unfortunately, Miller was written by Justice James McReynolds, arguably one of the worst Supreme Court Justices of the twentieth century. The opinion nowhere explicitly says that the Second Amendment does (or does not guarantee) an individual right. The key paragraph of the opinion is this:

In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a "shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length" at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense. Aymette v. State, 2 Humphreys (Tenn.) 154, 158.
This paragraph can plausibly be read to support either the Standard Model or the State's Rights theory. By the State's Right theory, the possession of a gun by any individual has no constitutional protection; the Second Amendment only applies to persons actively on duty in official state militias.

In contrast, the Standard Model reads the case as adopting the "civilized warfare" test of nineteenth century state Supreme Court cases: individuals have a right to own arms, but only the type of arms that are useful for militia service; for example, ownership of rifles is protected, but not ownership of Bowie knives (since Bowie knives were allegedly useful only for fights and brawls). The case cited by the Miller Court, Aymette v. State is plainly in the Standard Model, since it interprets the Tennessee Constitution's right to arms to protect an individual right to own firearms, but only firearms suitable for militia *107 use; in dicta, Aymette states that the Second Amendment has the same meaning.

While scholars can contend for different meanings, it is true that, as a matter of pure linguistics, the Miller decision does not foreclose either the Standard Model or the State's Rights theory.

And what is one to make of the opinion's penultimate paragraph, stating, "In the margin some of the more important opinions and comments by writers are cited." In the attached footnote, the opinion cites two prior U.S. Supreme Court opinions and six state court opinions, all of which treat the Second Amendment or its state analogue as an individual right, even as the opinions uphold particular gun controls. The footnote likewise cites treatises by Justice Joseph Story and Thomas Cooley explicating the Second Amendment as an individual right. But the same Miller footnote also cites a Kansas Supreme Court *108 decision which is directly contrary; that case holds that the right to arms in Kansas belongs only to the state government, and in dicta makes the same claim about the Second Amendment.

The Miller footnote begins with the phrase "Concerning the militia --" but several of the cases cited have nothing to do with the militia. For example, Robertson v. Baldwin (discussed infra) simply offers dicta that laws which forbid the carrying of concealed weapons by individuals do not violate the Second Amendment.

If Miller were the only source of information about the Second Amendment, the individual right vs. government right argument might be impossible to resolve conclusively. Fortunately, the Supreme Court has addressed the Second Amendment in thirty-four other cases--although most of these cases appear to have escaped the attention of commentators on both sides of *109 the issue. This article ends the bipartisan scholarly neglect of the Supreme Court's writings on the Second Amendment. "

 
Then I guess Cornell Law School has some splainin to do:
There was no precedent. No one was denied the right to own a firearm due to failure to belong to a militia.

More commentary:

 
At some point they'll have to be. It really just depends on how much blood Republicans are willing to get all over their hands before they say enough is enough.

The hurtle is reliable technology unless of course you don’t mind the blood in your hands for pushing an unproven technology.
 
? You want to take away modern weapons from law abiding gun owners and replace them with muskets? Isn't that what they had in those days? I must have missed the part where they said and in the future ak-47's and ar-15's will be exempt.

I wonder how the founding fathers would feel after watching us americans after a year and all the mass shootings. Do you think they would agree weapons of war were ok for the average citizen? I don't.
The founding fathers allowed citizens to own pretty much what soldiers carried. The left simply doesn't understand the principles in the Constitution and they want to add things that are not part of the constitution for their convenience. Mostly because they are selfish and don't want to accept responsibility for what they do.
 
I suggest putting a chip in all new firearms so only the registered owner can use the firearm.

Other suggestions?
Absolutely none and a reversal of all the ones that are still in place.
 
The founding fathers placed limitations on the government because they didn't want the government having overreaching powers such as they had suffered under the Parliamentary/Monarchy that had been oppressive and denied them representation.
 
Well, at some point, weapons that fire projectiles will be antiquated. So I guess you are correct.
In many cases they already are. Dont ask. It scare the hell out you, if you knew of the death causing contraptions that exist. Darpa is very good at what they do.
 
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