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Guantanamo inmates 'have rights'

Says it all:

FulleJ20080613_low.jpg

If by that you mean that we treat our enemies better than they would treat us, but no better than common criminals; then you're right, it does say it all.

Its what separates us from them, surely you do not advocate fighting an evil (the disregard for civil rights) by adopting it, and sinking to the level of the behavior that we would expect from such scum.
 
I wish you wouldn't always use "Europe" as if it was some kind of homogeneous entity, because it isn't. It's made up of many different countries that don't necessarily all agree with each other let alone with anyone else.

As I recall, Bush had two European leaders standing by his side for photo-ops when he decided to invade Iraq, and quite a few other countries like Denmark, Italy and Poland ready to send troops. Just because France and Germany were in disagreement does not mean that the entire continent is suddenly no longer on your side. A little perspective, please.

Also, no one really complained about Afghanistan, not even France or Germany.

Absolutely. But with the creation of the EU we have seen a dominating voice. You have somewhat become states within a country. You even share the same currency. And with France and Germany leading the way, the EU stands to be an obstacle to this greater-than-Afghanistan mission. It was the leading voices in the EU that poressured all of Euroipe to refrain from helping. It was the leadng voices in the EU that strong armed newer states or striving member states in the East. But even Afghanistan has seen the bare minimum support. I believe that France and Germany will come around soon enough though.

You forgot Pakistan. I'm betting there are just as many if not more sitting in nice hotels in Islamabad or Karachi, or even in government buildings. From what I've gathered so far, the country that is supposedly your "ally" in this "war" is doing a dismal job at helping you.

Of course. But this is the way it always is. Nobody even asks where our Asian "allies" are. Nobody asks why our Arab "allies" refrain from chasing down their own civilization's creations aside from chasing them into other countries. And everyone always assumes that our European "allies" are doing all they can, but this is not true. This has never been true.


The fight is global, yes. The war, however, is not. Unless you plan to invade every country that has ever had a terrorist organization operate within its borders. In which case I really suggest going after Pakistan next.

U.S. Marines are fighting in Africa. They are fighting in the Phillipines. They are fighting in the Middle East. They are in Bosnia. The anti-terrorist network extends throughout the world. Local governments in Europe are constantly digging out cells. This war is global. It is unlike any war we have ever seen, and some refuse to acknowledge it exists. It covers more ground than WWI.

Britian just bestowed Rushdie with Knighthood. Al-Queda has threatened to attack Britian. This means that our enemies see this war for exactly what it is while we pretend that its a minor inconvenience only to be fought in Afghanistan. It is everywhere and every individual is a target. Something as simple as the West celebrating the freedom of speech and creativity in literature is an offense so great to Islam's Radicals, that their extremists are willing to slaughter over it....and will.

This is global. And the sooner our allies acknowledge that it is a military issue and less a police issue the quicker we can get to the other side.
 
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Its what separates us from them,

We don't chop their heads off. This is what seperates us from them. We sink to the level of our enemies in every single war we are apart of. To pretend we don't is irresponsible. Who sunk lower in the Pacific during WWII? Anybody else drop atomic bombs on cities?

War is not about maintaining the fantasy of higher morality or clinging to visions of sainthood. It's about death, destruction, and survival. It's about defeating your enemy with the same or more viciousness than he applies to you.

If some prisoners have been made to feel uncomfortable because they were placed in uncomfortable positions (a ridiculous definition of torture according the Geneva), then so be it. Could be worse. We could "sink to their level" and chop their heads off to a video camera while chanting to God. I believe this sort of practice in history is called "human sacrifice."
 
We don't chop their heads off. This is what seperates us from them. We sink to the level of our enemies in every single war we are apart of. To pretend we don't is irresponsible. Who sunk lower in the Pacific during WWII? Anybody else drop atomic bombs on cities?

War is not about maintaining the fantasy of higher morality or clinging to visions of sainthood. It's about death, destruction, and survival. It's about defeating your enemy with the same or more viciousness than he applies to you.

If some prisoners have been made to feel uncomfortable because they were placed in uncomfortable positions (a ridiculous definition of torture according the Geneva), then so be it. Could be worse. We could "sink to their level" and chop their heads off to a video camera while chanting to God. I believe this sort of practice in history is called "human sacrifice."

Then explain to me how our government's acknowledgment of the civil rights of a domestic terrorist impedes the fight against such fringe lunacy?

You're right that such scruples are irrelevant in war, but I do not regard this WoT as a war. And in such a situation, I believe that the disregard of rights, and to presume one a terrorist before proven guilty would cause more blowback than terrorism prevention.

If you could explain to me how the problem of global terrorism can be resolved militarily, rather than through counter-terrorism intelligence, policing; then you will have reversed my premise.
 
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Then explain to me how our government's acknowledgment of the civil rights of a domestic terrorist impedes the fight against such fringe lunacy?

I don't know. I do find it ironic that we defend the accused notion that we seek to dominate the world and force our culture upon them...then turn around and declare our Constitution as a global influence.

You're right that such scruples are irrelevant in war, but I do not regard this WoT as a war.

But the American government does......as well as the majority of service men who had been facing them long before 9/11.

And in such a situation, I believe that the disregard of rights, and to presume one a terrorist before proven guilty would cause more blowback than terrorism prevention.

Well, considering that cartoons are enough to send the legion of radicals off the edeep end and a bestowment of Knighthood upon Rushdie is enough to "justify" slaughter and mayhem......I wouldn't be too worried about what being mean to their "warriors" and planners might do.

When we look closer at what they are using to justify their violence upon us, we really only see a celebration of the freedom of speech and a celebration of a literary writer who celebrates free expression. Therefore, your very life is an offense worthy of blood shed. We might want to start addressing the problems rather than soothing their criminals stay at the temporary hotel GITMO.

If you could explain to me how the problem of global terrorism can be resolved militarily, rather than through counter-terrorism intelligence, policing; then you will have reversed my premise.

Ummmm....can you explain how these things are going to fix the problem without military involvement? The solution demands everything we have. To pretend that there is an either/or solution is foolish. Counter terrosim involves the CIA and the military. Digging terrorist cells out of western European cities involves local law enforcement. No coddling or intel was going to remove the Tali-ban or Saddam Hussein. No game of Poker will eliminate Hezbollah. And do you know what a never ending international diplomacy will do to deter Iran's quest for nuclear power? An Iranian nuclear power.

International militants must be met with militant power. There is no Interpol ready to embark on an assault into terrorist strongholds. No special international force prepared to sneak into a town and capture a terrorist at large. No New York Police Force parked on an Air Craft Carrier ready to go into Somalia to arrest extremists.

The sooner you face this for what it is, the easier it will be for you to understand what is going on. And make no mistake....this war will continue under Obama too.
 
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We don't chop their heads off. This is what seperates us from them. We sink to the level of our enemies in every single war we are apart of. To pretend we don't is irresponsible. Who sunk lower in the Pacific during WWII? Anybody else drop atomic bombs on cities?

War is not about maintaining the fantasy of higher morality or clinging to visions of sainthood. It's about death, destruction, and survival. It's about defeating your enemy with the same or more viciousness than he applies to you.

If some prisoners have been made to feel uncomfortable because they were placed in uncomfortable positions (a ridiculous definition of torture according the Geneva), then so be it. Could be worse. We could "sink to their level" and chop their heads off to a video camera while chanting to God. I believe this sort of practice in history is called "human sacrifice."




Hear! Hear!
 
We don't chop their heads off. This is what seperates us from them.

We kill them just the same. At the end of the day, the result is the same. I remember watching Tim McVeigh's cold stare as he was executed. The method of beheading is crude and messy. It's like the difference between using a gas grill and a charcoal one. The end result is the same but one is messier.

BTW, the real difference is who we target and who they target. (civilians)

War is not about maintaining the fantasy of higher morality or clinging to visions of sainthood.

Then how do you claim that we are seperated from our enemies?

If some prisoners have been made to feel uncomfortable because they were placed in uncomfortable positions (a ridiculous definition of torture according the Geneva), then so be it. Could be worse. We could "sink to their level" and chop their heads off to a video camera while chanting to God. I believe this sort of practice in history is called "human sacrifice."

Our representatives collectively assemble on the steps of the Capitol Building to sing "God Bless America". If videotaping reality is immoral, what does that say about reality. I don't like the terrorist propoganda, but it pales in comparison to their real crimes.
 
We kill them just the same. At the end of the day, the result is the same. I remember watching Tim McVeigh's cold stare as he was executed. The method of beheading is crude and messy. It's like the difference between using a gas grill and a charcoal one. The end result is the same but one is messier.

BTW, the real difference is who we target and who they target. (civilians)



Then how do you claim that we are seperated from our enemies?




Our representatives collectively assemble on the steps of the Capitol Building to sing "God Bless America". If videotaping reality is immoral, what does that say about reality. I don't like the terrorist propoganda, but it pales in comparison to their real crimes.




I bolded the question and the answer for you.
 
I bolded the question and the answer for you.

Yes, this is true. But his point was that there is no moral superiority yet he also claimed moral superiority. I am just looking for his reconciliation.
 
Yes, this is true. But his point was that there is no moral superiority yet he also claimed moral superiority. I am just looking for his reconciliation.




There is no reconcilliation. It is what it is. In war you fight to win. When you don't fight to win, you lose. When you lose, you suffer the barbarity of the enemy. When we win they suffer our barbarity. This barbarity obviously is different. Which would you prefer? (rhetorical).




There were young knights among them who had never been present at a
stricken field. Some could not look upon it, and some could not speak. They held themselves apart from the others who were cutting down the prisoners at My Lord's orders, for the prisoners were a body too numerous to be guarded by those of us who were left.


Then Jean de Rye, an aged knight of Burgundy who had been sore wounded in
the fight, rode up to the group of young knights and said..


"Are ye maidens with your downcast eyes? Look well upon it! See all of it!
Close your eyes to nothing. for the battle is fought to be won, and it is
this that happens if you lose.."
 
Link to a declaration of war, please.
Congress does not need to lay a declaration of war for a state of war to exist.

And how do we know they're a criminal (a terrorist, to be exact), if we don't try them?
Same way we knew we could hold hundreds of thousands of germans and Italians without trying them -- we capturd them on the battlefield.
 
Congress does not need to lay a declaration of war for a state of war to exist.


Same way we knew we could hold hundreds of thousands of germans and Italians without trying them -- we capturd them on the battlefield.

The whole planet is the battlefield.
 
The whole planet is the battlefield.
Your point is...?

Whever our troops fight terrorists, when they capture said terrorists, they can detain them for the duration.

That's what happens when you capture people on the battlefield.
 
Congress does not need to lay a declaration of war for a state of war to exist.

That's true, we've been at war with drugs since Nixon and Reagan without Congress laying a declaration of war.
 
Your point is...?

Whever our troops fight terrorists, when they capture said terrorists, they can detain them for the duration.

That's what happens when you capture people on the battlefield.

So we can arbitrarily detain anyone anywhere without having to prove anything. Didn't someone write a book about this once? ;)
 
So we can arbitrarily detain anyone anywhere without having to prove anything.
"Captured on the battlefield" translates to "arbitrarily detain anyone anywhere"... how?

And yes -- when your troops capture someone on the battlefield that's fighting against them, you don't have to prove anything to detain them for the duration.
 
BTW, the real difference is who we target and who they target. (civilians)

Hell, even this is a source of criticism by some.

Then how do you claim that we are seperated from our enemies?

We win. Our civilization prospers due to our individual encouragments. Our humanitarian roles around the globe. Our will to improve our society with every election. Our ability to re-invent ourselves. But most of all our ability to meet the enemy on his battlegrounds, destroy him without prejudice, and return home to live normal lives as fathers and teachers. Our critics will parade up and down, blow whistles, and cheer over every single misstep America takes or every tripping when we stumble, but our enemies (and even most of our allies) aren't taking part in humanitarian missions continuously around the globe at any given moment.

But if we were to sum up our differences with one example....we need only to look at the earthquake in Iran a few years back. America offerred to help the civilian victims with no strings attached. When Katrina hit, Iran offered to help if we eased up on the embargos.

There's your difference. But when it comes to combat and war, we should not fool ourselves with this vision that we sit above the clouds as those noble black and white films of yesteryear portrayed. The enemy often gets shot in the back.

Our representatives collectively assemble on the steps of the Capitol Building to sing "God Bless America". If videotaping reality is immoral, what does that say about reality. I don't like the terrorist propoganda, but it pales in comparison to their real crimes.

Videotaping their deeds is not immoral. The deed itself is immoral.
 
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Hi all... I'm new!

I can see both sides of the argument here. For one there is no legal precedent that states we must treat these inmates like we would domestic citizens, and because Guantanamo conveniently finds itself outside of stipulations of the Geneva Convention, we should therefore not be complaining about prisoners rights. From a strictly legal standpoint, this is a valid argument. The U.S. setup Guantanamo knowing full well that it fell outside of the jurisdiction of laws it agreed to sign with the UN pertaining to torture and detainment.

The main beef being raised is the inherent social and humanitarian hypocrisy of such an action. The world in its nature is an anarchy and countries do what they do in order to protect their security and power status in the world, and thus the U.S. gov, as one of those actors, is simply exercising its abilities to do so. The problem is that in signing the Geneva Convention, the U.S. did so in good faith with other nations. By stepping outside of the jurisdiction of that document, it appears diplomatically deceitful to the rest of the world. In one hand, the U.S. maintains the ideas of freedom and democracy for all (whatever that is supposed to mean, at this point), yet goes and detains people without recourse, many of them underaged combattants.

So yes, the U.S., in the anarchic world of sovereign states, can really do whatever it wants, especially if it technically didn't sign anything saying it wouldn't. Yet, if it wishes to project a certain diplomatic image to other nations, it is somewhat obligated to honour its word.

The world, and a lot of observers within the U.S., are mostly annoyed at the hypocrisy, and not necessarily the legal implications. As well, since the U.S. is a Democratic Republic, Congress people can be swayed via public opinion to take recourse in this matter. No, Guantanamo does not fall under domestic jurisdiction, but the U.S. as a nation does, and therefore its actions are rightfully monitored by public input. I believe that domestic court decisions are a reflection of that. The military has some independent jurisdiction, but it is ultimately controlled by Congress, who is elected by who? And which judical process checks and balances Congress? The Supreme Court.

If SCOTUS thinks that more details about the detainees should be released, along with the impetus for those detainees to have a fair trial, along with public incentive influencing Congress to endorse this process, then I'm not really interested in whether or not these people were "combattants", or if they were captured in a real war or not. The fact is, a U.S. facility, funded by taxpayer dollars, is in existence outside of U.S. jurisdiction. The whole reason why this issue has been supressed until now is because the Bush Admin knows full well that the public will drive this matter to its closure.

You repress the truth long enough, it comes up some other way.

P.S. I've been observing this forum for a few weeks now and it's very interesting!
 
Hi all... I'm new!

I can see both sides of the argument here. For one there is no legal precedent that states we must treat these inmates like we would domestic citizens, and because Guantanamo conveniently finds itself outside of stipulations of the Geneva Convention, we should therefore not be complaining about prisoners rights. From a strictly legal standpoint, this is a valid argument. The U.S. setup Guantanamo knowing full well that it fell outside of the jurisdiction of laws it agreed to sign with the UN pertaining to torture and detainment.

The main beef being raised is the inherent social and humanitarian hypocrisy of such an action. The world in its nature is an anarchy and countries do what they do in order to protect their security and power status in the world, and thus the U.S. gov, as one of those actors, is simply exercising its abilities to do so. The problem is that in signing the Geneva Convention, the U.S. did so in good faith with other nations. By stepping outside of the jurisdiction of that document, it appears diplomatically deceitful to the rest of the world. In one hand, the U.S. maintains the ideas of freedom and democracy for all (whatever that is supposed to mean, at this point), yet goes and detains people without recourse, many of them underaged combattants.

So yes, the U.S., in the anarchic world of sovereign states, can really do whatever it wants, especially if it technically didn't sign anything saying it wouldn't. Yet, if it wishes to project a certain diplomatic image to other nations, it is somewhat obligated to honour its word.

The world, and a lot of observers within the U.S., are mostly annoyed at the hypocrisy, and not necessarily the legal implications. As well, since the U.S. is a Democratic Republic, Congress people can be swayed via public opinion to take recourse in this matter. No, Guantanamo does not fall under domestic jurisdiction, but the U.S. as a nation does, and therefore its actions are rightfully monitored by public input. I believe that domestic court decisions are a reflection of that. The military has some independent jurisdiction, but it is ultimately controlled by Congress, who is elected by who? And which judical process checks and balances Congress? The Supreme Court.

If SCOTUS thinks that more details about the detainees should be released, along with the impetus for those detainees to have a fair trial, along with public incentive influencing Congress to endorse this process, then I'm not really interested in whether or not these people were "combattants", or if they were captured in a real war or not. The fact is, a U.S. facility, funded by taxpayer dollars, is in existence outside of U.S. jurisdiction. The whole reason why this issue has been supressed until now is because the Bush Admin knows full well that the public will drive this matter to its closure.

You repress the truth long enough, it comes up some other way.

P.S. I've been observing this forum for a few weeks now and it's very interesting!

Welcome to Debate Politics! :2wave:
 
Congress does not need to lay a declaration of war for a state of war to exist.

Not according to the US constitution.

Same way we knew we could hold hundreds of thousands of germans and Italians without trying them -- we capturd them on the battlefield.

They were granted POW status, which the Guantanamo detainees do not have.

This was covered multiple times during this thread alone.
 
Not according to the US constitution.
Where does the constituion state that the only way the US can be at a state of war is if Congress declares war...?

They were granted POW status, which the Guantanamo detainees do not have.
And so...?
 
Who?

(10 characters)

Start a thread. Ask what people think about American troops targetting a military target where civilians are killed. The "whos" will appear. They will argue that a traget that contains civilians is the same thing as "targetting civilians."
 
Secret “War on Terror” Prison on Diego Garcia Confirmed | Infinite Unknown

Secret “War on Terror” Prison on Diego Garcia Confirmed
The existence of a secret, CIA-run prison on the island of Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean has long been a leaky secret in the “War on Terror,” and recent revelations in TIME — based on disclosures by a “senior American official,” who was “a frequent participant in White House Situation Room meetings” after the 9/11 attacks, and who reported that “a CIA counter-terrorism official twice said that a high-value prisoner or prisoners were being interrogated on the island” — will come as no surprise to those who have been studying the story closely.

The news will, however, be an embarrassment to the US government, which has persistently denied claims that it operated a secret “War on Terror” prison on Diego Garcia, and will be a source of even more consternation to the British government, which is more closely bound than its law-shredding Transatlantic neighbor to international laws and treaties preventing any kind of involvement whatsoever in kidnapping, “extraordinary rendition” and the practice of torture
 
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